It's often been a watchword of mine that two seater derivatives of some aircraft look a loot better than their single seater originals. On the other hand some are a lot worse, the Lightning being a case in point. Of course this is all very subjective but I'd be interested in the opinions of others on this stuff. Proposed two seaters that never got built are allowed in the list.
2 seater looks better than the single seater
Su-27
Skyhawk
F-106
F-100
F-86
Harrier
Mirage F-1
2 seater looks worse than the single seater
Lightning
Typhoon
F-102
Mig 15
Attacker
Scimitar
Mig-29
Neutral
Hunter
F-105
F-9F
Some of those 2-seaters we so ugly Supermarine couldn't bring themselves to actually build them so you must be right! Not sure about the Harrier though, having to stick all that 'boom' out the back stops it from looking 'right' to me...
2 seater Spitfire?
I really just don't know.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 30, 2015, 10:57:05 AM
It's often been a watchword of mine that two seater derivatives of some aircraft look a loot better than their single seater originals. On the other hand some are a lot worse, the Lightning being a case in point. Of course this is all very subjective but I'd be interested in the opinions of others on this stuff. Proposed two seaters that never got built are allowed in the list.
2 seater looks better than the single seater
Su-27
Skyhawk
F-106
F-100
F-86
Harrier
Mirage F-1
2 seater looks worse than the single seater
Lightning
Typhoon
F-102
Mig 15
Attacker
Scimitar
Mig-29
Neutral
Hunter
F-105
F-9F
Good list, I will add:
2 seater better:
Hawk, Single seat 200 looks terrible/out of proportion
F-106, agree
Harrier (agree with Kit) first gen especially, second generation closer to neutral
Impala
Mitsubishi F-1- looks like they just sheet metalled over the second seat of the T-2
F-16D/F with the spine
F-8 "Two-sader" (one built)
F-5. Two seat or T-38 has much better lines
2 seater worse:
Mirage III/Cheetah/Dagger
Rafale
Me-262
Meteor
A-7
F-15 B/D (somehow looks OK the F-15E)
F-16B
Saab 35 Draken
MiG-25 step down nose trainer
U-2 with the second bubble
F-22 (proposed only)
MiG-23
A-10
Neutral
F-101 Voodoo- both look pretty good in different ways.
F-100
Saab Viggen
A-4 Skyhawk- disagree- just too much glass. And the double bubble singapore version looks bad.
Su-25
I have to disagree about the Lightning as the layout is the same as the Hunter two seater ans that looks impressive now as it did when they were new.
The F-4 Phantom would have looked better as a single seater, same goes for the Tornado. The German's flew these as single seaters.
To me, single seaters almost always invariably look better than two seaters, especially those in tandem arrangement. It's a bit like a sports coupe vs. a family sedan ;)...
Martin
IMHO two seaters that were designed that way from the beginning look better than a single seat derivative.
Take the F-4, the original plan was to be a single seat fleet defence aircraft and in fact that is what the mock-up was built as. The final product looks right as a two seater.
The Tornado also does not look right as a single seater.
The Javelin would look just silly as a single seater.
The Sea Vixen..... OK who would know.
Etc, Etc, Etc.......
Quote from: JayBee on January 30, 2015, 02:09:00 PM
The Javelin would look just silly as a single seater.
Jim, I'm almost tempted. ;D
I've found I have two T3s in The Loft............... ;)
Even though the Blackbird is a two seater, and looks pretty sexy (in the air, where its not leaking all over the place), SR-71B just looks...worse IMHO
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fd%2Fda%2FSR-71B_NASA_in_flight_1991.jpg&hash=d46631113f45b02bc57b5e2ca5ea504124e3eaa7)
Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 30, 2015, 02:31:25 PM
Quote from: JayBee on January 30, 2015, 02:09:00 PM
The Javelin would look just silly as a single seater.
Jim, I'm almost tempted. ;D
I've found I have two T3s in The Loft............... ;)
I think I'd be inclined to do one like this - --- that's the cockpit --- not the rest of it
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FBAC%2520STOVL%2520Canberra%2FStovlCanberra104.jpg&hash=0bd55c67c54ed52b4af11141cfec0447838efd2b) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/BAC%20STOVL%20Canberra/StovlCanberra104.jpg.html)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FBAC%2520STOVL%2520Canberra%2FStovlCanberra011.jpg&hash=c5f7624f779e5e4bc685a273f7b233537a497086) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/BAC%20STOVL%20Canberra/StovlCanberra011.jpg.html)
Quote from: JayBee on January 30, 2015, 02:09:00 PM
The Javelin would look just silly as a single seater.
Hmm, really?
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FGLOSTER_PXXX_005.png&hash=f4bd84ea488ef46767e6ac225b3f806426240a0b)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FGLOSTER_PXXX_008.png&hash=b9352ca5d1ba1d1c3299e7cc4c6b41b22c26755c)
;D
one two-seater I just love is the Me163S
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airwar.ru%2Fimage%2Fidop%2Ffww2%2Fme163%2Fme163-9.jpg&hash=21ccb0a4a4d65c8bda2e11f92e766b4e924b8b5c)
and I agree with Kit that two-seater variants have something special, even when looking a bit ugly.
The Harrier and Skyhawk look great with their magnified bubble canopy. Like a big eye, or swollen brain?
Quote from: ericr on January 31, 2015, 01:01:33 AM
and I agree with Kit that two-seater variants have something special, even when looking a bit ugly.
The Harrier and Skyhawk look great with their magnified bubble canopy. Like a big eye, or swollen brain?
oh, and what about this twin-seater? (for which the single-seater was already quite a challenge ...)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lonesentry.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F10%2Fv1-bomb-fieseler-fi103-trainer-re-3.jpg&hash=08d88a7126b3c7fe3f54ba4059ab12e701d6c042)
Quote from: ericr on January 31, 2015, 02:23:43 AM
Quote from: ericr on January 31, 2015, 01:01:33 AM
and I agree with Kit that two-seater variants have something special, even when looking a bit ugly.
The Harrier and Skyhawk look great with their magnified bubble canopy. Like a big eye, or swollen brain?
oh, and what about this twin-seater? (for which the single-seater was already quite a challenge ...)
does this one count?
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diseno-art.com%2Fnews_content%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2FGloster-Meteor-F8-Prone-Pilot-2.jpg%3Ff75118&hash=567f2bd4688b8bdcae4bf99f1e60a63393655642)
Quote from: ericr on January 31, 2015, 02:27:34 AM
does this one count?
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diseno-art.com%2Fnews_content%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2FGloster-Meteor-F8-Prone-Pilot-2.jpg%3Ff75118&hash=567f2bd4688b8bdcae4bf99f1e60a63393655642)
Absolutely, a wonderful looking aircraft. ;D
Much better looking than a standard Meteor T7, and maybe better than a standard F8 too.
Not only does the real thing still exist at the Cosford Museum, but Special Hobby do it as a kit, and excellent it is too.
You've now got me thinking about what a Sea Vixen would like with a twin place cockpit rather then the coal hole it had.
Jon I've always liked those Gloster single seat projects ever since I first saw them in Putnams.
Quote from: sandiego89 on January 30, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
Mitsubishi F-1- looks like they just sheet metalled over the second seat of the T-2
I think that's what they did. Swear I've read that somewhere
Quote from: NARSES2 on January 31, 2015, 05:34:50 AM
You've now got me thinking about what a Sea Vixen would like with a twin place cockpit rather then the coal hole it had.
Sea Venom canopy?
I agree with most of the list, however, IMHO of course:
The two-seat 1st gen Harrier is NOT better-looking than the single-seater: the canopy looks nice, but the goofy fin and tail spike spoil it for me.
F-9F Cougar: the two-seater DOES look better than the single-seater. There's nothing wrong with the single, it's just that the twin is so
damned pretty.
The Skyhawk I would say is neutral: both versions look good for different reasons.
Quote from: Weaver on January 31, 2015, 08:10:43 AM
The two-seat 1st gen Harrier is NOT better-looking than the single-seater: the canopy looks nice, but the goofy fin and tail spike spoil it for me.
Counterpoint, whats not to like about this one:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1193.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa360%2Fsandiego89%2FHarrier27_zpsb659de69.jpg&hash=dfb69285d2cc4d95ca9067a21322c921ef0f0324)
The F-1 is a straight conversion of the T-2, the rear seat position replaced with an avionics bay and the rear canopy
replaced with a hatch.
Straightforward and logical. ;D
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 31, 2015, 09:30:00 AM
The F-1 is a straight conversion of the T-2, the rear seat position replaced with an avionics bay and the rear canopy
replaced with a hatch.
Straightforward and logical. ;D
Agree a good approach, but it is uglier- and thus my nomination in this thread.
Quote from: sandiego89 on January 31, 2015, 09:30:00 AM
Quote from: Weaver on January 31, 2015, 08:10:43 AM
The two-seat 1st gen Harrier is NOT better-looking than the single-seater: the canopy looks nice, but the goofy fin and tail spike spoil it for me.
Counterpoint, whats not to like about this one:
Okay, I'll give you that the original T.2s were better than the T.4s...
Quote from: Weaver on January 31, 2015, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: sandiego89 on January 31, 2015, 09:30:00 AM
Quote from: Weaver on January 31, 2015, 08:10:43 AM
The two-seat 1st gen Harrier is NOT better-looking than the single-seater: the canopy looks nice, but the goofy fin and tail spike spoil it for me.
Counterpoint, whats not to like about this one:
Okay, I'll give you that the original T.2s were better than the T.4s...
Agree. The all black T-8's, and G-VTOL especially in a few schemes looked good as well. The laser nose on the gr3 and t4 made them the ugliest of the family.
I much prefer the looks of the later Harrier T10/TAV-8B to the equivalent single seaters, something to do with the balance of the fin and canopy maybe.
The Hunter and Lightning two-seaters are hideous. A tandem two-seat Hunter would probably be quite attractive, though. I think a side-by-side Venom-style canopy on the Sea Vixen would completely ruin it...
It really depends on the design, and sometimes further modifications made later on improve the look. The latest F-16s, for example, with the big spines and CFTs look much better than the earlier smooth B/Ds. I think a big spine would massively improve the look of the two-seater Typhoon, too.
Quote from: pyro-manic on January 31, 2015, 01:45:41 PM
A tandem two-seat Hunter would probably be quite attractive, though.
See here. ;D
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,39695.105.html (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,39695.105.html)
Thought so! ;D :thumbsup:
Quote from: Weaver on January 31, 2015, 08:10:43 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on January 31, 2015, 05:34:50 AM
You've now got me thinking about what a Sea Vixen would like with a twin place cockpit rather then the coal hole it had.
Sea Venom canopy?
How about a Modelimex Jet Provost canopy? (Must learn how to use the quote function)
Quote from: pyro-manic on January 31, 2015, 01:45:41 PM
The Hunter and Lightning two-seaters are hideous. A tandem two-seat Hunter would probably be quite attractive, though. I think a side-by-side Venom-style canopy on the Sea Vixen would completely ruin it...
It really depends on the design, and sometimes further modifications made later on improve the look. The latest F-16s, for example, with the big spines and CFTs look much better than the earlier smooth B/Ds. I think a big spine would massively improve the look of the two-seater Typhoon, too.
And yet the F-111 and the A-6 were both two seaters and not branded hideous as well!
this Mig-9L has its specificity, esthetically
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fantastic-plastic.com%2FMiG9LBoxArt.jpg&hash=82b4fbbc1843024d38262d78526771a23aa2da8a)
Quote from: ericr on February 01, 2015, 01:31:57 AM
this Mig-9L has its specificity, esthetically
Wow, that is really ugly....and must have been a plumbing nightmare...
When you look at a lot of the Soviet trainer conversions they could only have happened on that side of the Iron Curtain. Completely different philosophy
Quote from: McColm on February 01, 2015, 01:16:47 AM
And yet the F-111 and the A-6 were both two seaters and not branded hideous as well!
Those were both designed as side-by-side two seaters from the start, and are wide enough to accommodate. The Lightning and Hunter are both sleek and narrow, and jamming a side-by-side twin cockpit on gives them both an incredibly ungainly, bug-eyed look.
I actually quite like that Mig-9L. It's less ugly than the UTI trainer, in any case...
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.ruslet.webnode.cz%2F200004975-cc230ce16e%2FMiG-9UTI_FT-2_02.jpg&hash=3db5ba4f561e760836d518b4adae3b3ccd7f089c)
Quote from: pyro-manic on February 01, 2015, 10:31:59 AMThe Lightning and Hunter are both sleek and narrow, and jamming a side-by-side twin cockpit on gives them both an incredibly ungainly, bug-eyed look.
Same with the F-102A/B. The A, for all its sluggish faults, looks nice. The B...what the hell was Convair thinking?
Indeed!
Quote from: scooter on February 01, 2015, 10:51:28 AM
Quote from: pyro-manic on February 01, 2015, 10:31:59 AMThe Lightning and Hunter are both sleek and narrow, and jamming a side-by-side twin cockpit on gives them both an incredibly ungainly, bug-eyed look.
Same with the F-102A/B. The A, for all its sluggish faults, looks nice. The B...what the hell was Convair thinking?
At least they got their act together when they did the 2 seater Six!
The two seat Fury is curious. The Iraq version IIRC.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 31, 2015, 05:27:44 AM
Quote from: ericr on January 31, 2015, 02:27:34 AM
does this one count?
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.diseno-art.com%2Fnews_content%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F08%2FGloster-Meteor-F8-Prone-Pilot-2.jpg%3Ff75118&hash=567f2bd4688b8bdcae4bf99f1e60a63393655642)
Absolutely, a wonderful looking aircraft. ;D
Much better looking than a standard Meteor T7, and maybe better than a standard F8 too.
Not only does the real thing still exist at the Cosford Museum, but Special Hobby do it as a kit, and excellent it is too.
the kit is nice indeed, thanks for the tip, I just improved it (my way) a bit :
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,40517.msg684028.html#msg684028 (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,40517.msg684028.html#msg684028)