SARO projects for rescue lifeboat and Sea Raider commando attack gliders.
Descriptions and small 3-views from Tagg-Wheeler From Sea to Air;
larger drawings from Wheeler From River to Sea.
P.108 1949
Two versions of a glider, the hull of which detached to serve as a lifeboat. The Mk.II version was favoured
and the hull shape, jettison system and operational technique were investigated in some detail.
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P.147 1951-52
Four versions of the Sea Raider project consisting of a glider housing two motor boats. Weights ranged from 10,000 - 30,000 lb and wing spans from 60 ft to 110 ft. In addition the two motor boats ranged in weight from 8,200 lb to 24,150 lb. Straight and cranked wings were considered but all schemes incorporated V-tails and the main hull incorporated a marine propulsion system for use after jettisoning the wing and tail portions and discharging the motor boats and would be equipped with a gun turret. In the boats 2 125 HP Rover V-6 piston engines were initially employed, later Rover Gas Turbines were proposed.
Note that the authors seemed confused between the actual boat part of the gliders and the small assault
craft (something submersible and Sleeping Beauty like?) shown inside the vessels.
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fitting boats with wings : a whole range of whiffing and kitbashing in perspective ...
Very similar to the original Supermarine concept where a flying boat, if encountering troubles in the air could land on the sea and jettison it's wings and motor back to shore.
Very intersting projects Jon, thanks for sharing. Are there any details on what aircraft were considered for tugs?
I've just answered my own question, Gannet. There's a section in Chris Gibson's Nimrod's Genesis on the P.108, with a small amount on the P.147. Gannet's equipped with RATOG would tow the boat from the carrier deck. Catapult launch was seen as too risky, another approach was for aerial pick up by the tug, but this would have entailed fitting out each Gannet with a winch.
Thanks for that bit of gen, Simon. There was no mention of tugs in the two SARO books.
I'd hope that the Gannet tug was intended for the P.108 rather than the bigger P.147
concepts. :blink:
How would they launch a Gannet towing a largish glider off a Brit RN Carrier's deck?
The glider would have to be right at the stern and with a decent tow length line the tug wouldn't have much deck length to get off, even with RATOG assistance. The crew of the glider would get the very devil of a 'snatch' if the tug was up to any speed when the line tightened! :o
Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 10, 2015, 08:38:06 AM
How would they launch a Gannet towing a largish glider off a Brit RN Carrier's deck?
The glider would have to be right at the stern and with a decent tow length line the tug wouldn't have much deck length to get off, even with RATOG assistance. The crew of the glider would get the very devil of a 'snatch' if the tug was up to any speed when the line tightened! :o
Perhaps off an RN version of CVA-58
USS United States? ;)
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on April 10, 2015, 08:43:18 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 10, 2015, 08:38:06 AM
How would they launch a Gannet towing a largish glider off a Brit RN Carrier's deck?
The glider would have to be right at the stern and with a decent tow length line the tug wouldn't have much deck length to get off, even with RATOG assistance. The crew of the glider would get the very devil of a 'snatch' if the tug was up to any speed when the line tightened! :o
Perhaps off an RN version of CVA-58 USS United States? ;)
It'd surely need something of that size, yes.
In the 'real gliding' world the tug takes up the slack in the line quite slowly and then stops, awaiting the 'All Out' signal from the wing marshal, and then tug and glider move off as one.
The book gives a take off run of 450ft (137m) with a 22kt (41km/h) wind-over deck.
No details about the tug for the P.147, but assuming it was carrier based, the only other suitable(?) type I can think of would be the Wyvern? Sea Hawk might be fun though! :drink:
There's more details, I'll post them soon.
What a great idea. I don't like the idea of wasting all that structure, but I could easily get past that as they saved a few lives.
:thumbsup: :wub: :cheers:
Hm, not sure I'd want be aboard either half of the combo trying that.
'The Mighty Ark' was 804 ft long and by the time you've taken off the length of the two aircraft and the 350 ft take-off run, that leaves a tow line length of about 250 ft.
More details on the P.108.2:
Overall length: 42ft 9n in (13m)
Hull Length: 30ft (9.1m)
Wingspan: 51ft (15.8m)
Wing chord: 9ft (2.7m)
AUW: 5,000lb (2268kg)
Tow range: 350nm (648km)
Powerplant: 2x Vincent HRD T5 two stroke petrol engines with a total of 500lb fuel (68.6 Imp Gallons/312 litres)
Speed: 6kt (11km/h)
Range on engines (could be augmented by sales): 760nm (1,048km)
P.147 could carry two cockle kayaks with four commandos.
It seems the studies were quite serious and were studied for well over a year, the need for the P.108 giving way to the aerial lifeboat equipped Shackleton and more viable helicopters negated the need for the P.147.
This may be the engine, or a development of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_lifeboat_engine
Based on the larger drawings I posted, I think the small boats of the P.147 were to be more along the lines of the SARO Sleeping Beauty
'submersible motorised canoe' than a 'cockle kayak'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorised_Submersible_Canoe
I'd be interested to know the exact nature of what the small boats in those drawings are, they certainly seem to be some kind of development of the Sleeping Beauty. The book mentions the cockle, I'm guessing that's either Chris Gibson's interpretation or possibly just quoting another possible payload. There are only small drawings of the P.108 plus a scrap view of the Gannet tug with glider, no images of the P.147.
OK, there is a more complete description of P.147 in From River To Sea that I missed first time round :banghead: :
15 troops plus 550lbs suitable equipment or two submersible canoes, their operators and associated explosive charges.
Both craft to have a crew of two.
From pg. 155: "The required water performance was for a return journey of up to 500 nautical miles at a cruising speed of 15 to 18 knots
and a maximum water speed of 30 knots. The Company response was P147, a craft with an all-up-weight of some 7 tons with a wing span
of 77 ft and a hull based on the successful Dark class fast patrol boats of 57 ft. length and a beam of 9.5 ft. Power was to be supplied by two
125 H.P. Rover V6 engines which drove twin water screws. Extensive successful model tests were carried out in the Company's ditching tank.
However the requirement called for a craft capable of both an safe landing and take off. The Company considered that the requirement
for take off meant the design of a full flying boat which was rejected by the customer, who did not proceed with the Company proposal."
Yes, lets glide to the enemy coast, touch down on the surface, drop the flying bits, motor into shore, launch our commando or mini-sub attack,
recover our raiders, motor back to pick up the flying bits we dropped and then wait for a tug to snatch us up into the air.
What could possibly go wrong? :blink: :blink:
A Rover V6 engine? :unsure:
I've never heard of one of them, in the period anyway. Was there any more detail about it?
No more info, but, evidently the V8 derivative of the R-R Meteor, the R-R Meteorite, was also known as the Rover Meteorite,
because Rover manufactured the Meteor and Meteorite. Both petrol and diesel versions for land and sea.
So perhaps the V6 mentioned was a similar development from the Meteor, literally half the V12 Meteor?, a Rover Micro-Meteorite? ;D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Meteorite
http://www.yachtgrot.com/the-rolls-royce-meteor-rover-meteorite-220-bhp-diesel-engine-marine.html
Not much power for a 1/4 of a Merlin though, even an unblown one. I'll see if I can find more about that on some car sites.
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on April 11, 2015, 07:15:02 PM
Yes, lets glide to the enemy coast, touch down on the surface, drop the flying bits, motor into shore, launch our commando or mini-sub attack,
recover our raiders, motor back to pick up the flying bits we dropped and then wait for a tug to snatch us up into the air.
What could possibly go wrong? :blink: :blink:
Early days of WWII British raiding forces did things just as daft as that just so that we could be seen to be "hitting back" and I'm not being disrespectfull at all. I totally understand why it was required and the guys were volunteers.
Does it actually say 'V6' or could it be a misprint for 'V8'?
There really was a V8 derived from the unsupercharged V12 Meteor tank engine, which was the 18 litre Meteorite, built by both Rolls Royce and Rover at various times. It produced around 260 bhp on low octane fuel, in which guise it powered the Thorneycoft Antar tank transporter, which also used a totally different Rolls Royce diesel engine in its later versions.
Talk about a complex gestation! :o
Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 11, 2015, 11:51:30 PM
Not much power for a 1/4 of a Merlin though, even an unblown one. I'll see if I can find more about that on some car sites.
The Meteor is 600hp, the petrol Meteorite V8 in the
Antar tank-transporter 260hp, the diesel marine/stationary Meteorite
in the advert 220hp, so 125 for a V6 development is in line with that trend. ;D
That'd be 1/2 of a Merlin. ;)
I still can't find any other mention of a V6 anywhere. :banghead:
I'm surprised they made a decent V8 out of the Meteor, its secondary out of balance forces would have been horrendous, specially with that capacity.
It may have been a matter of getting the engine developed once the project received the go ahead,
rather than using an existing engine.
:-\