....... but, I have a pair of Airfix VC-10 kits & kind of got this crazy idea about a sort of super extended tandem winged version with the standard 4 R R Conways tail mounted & 4 R R Conways mounted under the forward wings (in pairs). Now, I know the normal rules of aerodynamics don't apply in Whifworld but, I'd at least like it to be really workable (if implausible!! ;D). I could mount the forward wings on the upper fuselage but, would a layout involving both sets of wings, one behind the other actually work or, would the vortex created by the forward wings actually destroy the airflow over the rear wings thereby rendering it unflyable?
I'd also toyed with the notion of a longer, more stramlined nose with a Vulcan type canopy
As you have probably gathered, I know precious little about REAL aerodynamics so, any useful info would be appreciated.
Now, in case you're wondering, I seem to remember seeing a large tandem winged transport aircraft on one of the Gerry Anderson series. Might have been Thunderbirds! Can't remember exactly where.
Allan
;D I would just LOVE to try this in 1/72 scale but, in the absence of a proper scale VC-10 I M kit, I haver no alternative but to turn to the dark side & use 1/144!!
;D I'm sure a lot of you probably think this is nuts!! I tend to agree!! ;D
Albeback,the transport you mention was Featured in the Thunderbirds Episode,'The Cham Cham' it was called the RTL2! Go For it,Man! Hope this Helps. Dan
Sod the heresy, go for it!
Not tandem wing, but double decker, twin & triple fuselage versions were drawn up so it's only another shade of craziness! :drink:
Tandem wing is perfectly respectable aerodynamics, just not very common. Since you're not going to be maneuvering at high AoA, there's no pressing need for the front wing to be higher than the back one. It can be at the same height, as long at the horizontal separation is far enough (and it will be). I'd be inclined to keep the front wing low, then put the front engines above it, far enough outboard that the rear ones arn't eating their exhaust. The jet wash from the front engines shouldn't affect the rear wing much, and might even help it by boosting the flow speed over it's upper surface. This will also help avoid too much cabin noise, which you'd get if the front engines' exhaust was washing down the sides of the fuselage.
Tandem wings worked fine in earlier days, viz the various Miles Libellila aircraft, albeit with the wings if differing sizes. And Westland did that too with the Lysander P.12 which used the Delanne system with very similar wing pairs, as did many Delannes as well.
Of course the real Linellula, a species of dragonfly, gets along just fine with tandem wings. ;D
Lockspeiser LDA from 1975: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1975/1975%20-%200753.html
I always really liked this thing: a sort of flying Landrover for the third world. Projected advanced versions had a tail ramp and two engines on swivelling pylons amidships that let them elevate through 45 deg to improve STOL performance. Unfortunately, the prototype was destroyed in the same hangar fire that scuppered the Edgely Optica (first time around).
Quote from: albeback on September 23, 2011, 02:56:21 AM
....... but, I have a pair of Airfix VC-10 kits & kind of got this crazy idea about a sort of super extended tandem winged version with the standard 4 R R Conways tail mounted & 4 R R Conways mounted under the forward wings (in pairs). Now, I know the normal rules of aerodynamics don't apply in Whifworld but, I'd at least like it to be really workable (if implausible!! ;D). I could mount the forward wings on the upper fuselage but, would a layout involving both sets of wings, one behind the other actually work or, would the vortex created by the forward wings actually destroy the airflow over the rear wings thereby rendering it unflyable?
I'd also toyed with the notion of a longer, more stramlined nose with a Vulcan type canopy
As you have probably gathered, I know precious little about REAL aerodynamics so, any useful info would be appreciated.
Now, in case you're wondering, I seem to remember seeing a large tandem winged transport aircraft on one of the Gerry Anderson series. Might have been Thunderbirds! Can't remember exactly where.
Allan
;D I would just LOVE to try this in 1/72 scale but, in the absence of a proper scale VC-10 I M kit, I haver no alternative but to turn to the dark side & use 1/144!!
;D I'm sure a lot of you probably think this is nuts!! I tend to agree!! ;D
:wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: 144th scale , don't be afraid..... :o :o :o :o :o ;)
Just don't build a Junkers E581 in it , like I did.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm7.static.flickr.com%2F6152%2F6175010172_91feb98a47_b.jpg&hash=6ec0611e6297ecd466f108a5ac24378302771103)
The squares on the parking area are just over 1 inch. :blink:--eyestrain and the temptation to build the model attached to the end of a dowel, so it can be handled....
Built the Airfix VC-10, great kit, the newer ones have really good decals.
Thanks for all the tips folks! ;D. in particular ;
Dan - I KNEW it was an Anderson idea!! Pity I don't have the series on DVD. Think a visit to HMV might be imminent :cheers:
Weaver - It never occurred to me to mount the engines above the wings. I had sort pf planned to mount them about mid point so that (a) the rear engines wouldn't suck in the exhaust and, (b) there would be (just) enough ground clearance. I like your idea though.
Gerry Anderson's creations were a heaven for "whiffers". It's a shame there aren't really any decent kits available. A decent scale Zero X or Fireflash would be just AWESOME!!
One I'd really love to try is this one!! For the uninitiated, it's the VG-104 advanced tactical fighter. It featured in an episode of Joe 90 ( I hated that know it all brat!! ;D).
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1098.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fg362%2Falbeback52%2Fimage002.jpg&hash=f278b66be5be7052a66c4ce3d33039b3884d12d7)
Quote from: Weaver on September 23, 2011, 04:14:20 AM
Lockspeiser LDA from 1975: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1975/1975%20-%200753.html
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that, quite an ingenious idea and it was a pity it was wrecked by the fire. The tesbed wouldn't be too difficult to scratchbuild I'd have thought.
A VC10 is going to be a beautiful machine, whatever you do with it . Go for it!
If I decide to try to build an LDA, will it count as a Whiff or just a not-quite?
I've tried to save that LDA page from FlighyGlobal twice now, and it locks up at 82% and crashes my browser!
I'd forgotten it was painted in a civvie scheme on the starboard side and a camo scheme on the port side. ;D Tophe would love that!
Quote from: PR19_Kit on September 23, 2011, 05:42:18 AM
I've tried to save that LDA page from FlighyGlobal twice now, and it locks up at 82% and crashes my browser!
check your mail ;D
Outsteken! :thumbsup: (one of the few Dutch words I know, even if I can't spell it properly...)
Thanks so much Harro, much obliged.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on September 23, 2011, 05:28:09 AM
Quote from: Weaver on September 23, 2011, 04:14:20 AM
Lockspeiser LDA from 1975: http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1975/1975%20-%200753.html
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that, quite an ingenious idea and it was a pity it was wrecked by the fire. The tesbed wouldn't be too difficult to scratchbuild I'd have thought.
Since my Helivan has left me with a spare set of wings, it occurs to me that something of this ilk might be a good thing to do with my other Skyvan... :wacko:
I can't recall seeing what the full scale version of the LDA would have looked like, but a tandem winged Skyvan can't have been far off the final result! :thumbsup:
I've got an old Air International at home with an article and some artwork. I'll see if I can find it.
What I'm thinking for the Skyvan is that you could reduce the span of the individual wings to the point where they didn't need bracing, then use the redundant tailplanes to make pylons to mount the engines amidships.
I've put the Air International article up on Secret Projects, here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6305.0.html
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FLockspeiser0004.jpg&hash=a5b2c4ea2a89bd857d18e1704a68f75fd23a08a2)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FLockspeiser0005.jpg&hash=24e10be0b855e2806c17be0aaccee1579554906a)
Yes, it DOES look like a tandem winged Skyvan with the engines in the middle. ;D
Thanks for the link, I'll be off to download that right now. :thumbsup:
The other thing that struck me is that you could make it out of Dornier Do-28/Do-228 and/or OV-10 Bronco bits.
You could do it like this;
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FMisc%2520Photos%2F4698.jpg&hash=ac7bd992a66c4b2e8c2714bbde53c3b7bc174901)
Quote from: kitnut617 on September 24, 2011, 09:19:18 AM
You could do it like this;
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FMisc%2520Photos%2F4698.jpg&hash=ac7bd992a66c4b2e8c2714bbde53c3b7bc174901)
WHAT is that Robert??? :o
Quote from: Overkiller on September 24, 2011, 10:10:04 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on September 24, 2011, 09:37:04 AM
WHAT is that Robert??? :o
Lockheed Martin box wing KC-X Advanced Mobility Aircraft (AMA) concept (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4375.msg101620.html#msg101620)
:cheers:
Duncan
Quote from: PR19_Kit on September 24, 2011, 09:37:04 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on September 24, 2011, 09:19:18 AM
You could do it like this;
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FMisc%2520Photos%2F4698.jpg&hash=ac7bd992a66c4b2e8c2714bbde53c3b7bc174901)
WHAT is that Robert??? :o
What Duncan said :mellow:
Could be a tandem wing, biplane, or anything else you want to call it. I can imaging one half of the VC-10 tailplane protruding from the top wingtip connection on both sides just to be different.
Quote from: kitnut617 on September 24, 2011, 09:19:18 AM
You could do it like this;
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FMisc%2520Photos%2F4698.jpg&hash=ac7bd992a66c4b2e8c2714bbde53c3b7bc174901)
:o :o :o :o :o :o
Wow!!! Now, THAT I like!!!!! ;D
"This will probably be regarded as heresy by some........"
.................................... How the blazes does someone come up with a thread title like that here on a site populated by modelling heretics & sinners? :blink:
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 26, 2011, 12:36:02 AM
"This will probably be regarded as heresy by some........"
.................................... How the blazes does someone come up with a thread title like that here on a site populated by modelling heretics & sinners? :blink:
HERESY??
In this specific case, it's not heresy, it's creative imagination and should be applauded
Heresy is a word from the vocabulary of the Rivet Counters (JMNs) and therefore should rarely be necessary in polite conversation in Whiffworld. Everything we do is heretical and an anathema to the ranks of the pedantic.
Attention sicko's, weirdo's & perverts .....
Heresy for us is building a kit out of the box, no mods, in the colour scheme shown in the instructions / boxtop and using the kit decals.
Now that's what I call going straight :lol:
Quote from: raafif on September 26, 2011, 05:02:12 PM
Attention sicko's, weirdo's & perverts .....
Heresy for us is building a kit out of the box, no mods, in the colour scheme shown in the instructions / boxtop and using the kit decals.
Now that's what I call going straight :lol:
Or worse yet, buying it pre-painted and marked and snapping it together glue-less with our own little nose pickers... :blink:
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 26, 2011, 12:36:02 AM
"This will probably be regarded as heresy by some........"
.................................... How the blazes does someone come up with a thread title like that here on a site populated by modelling heretics & sinners? :blink:
;D ;D Couldn't think of anything better!! I fully expected to meet the fate of all heretics by even THINKING of chopping a model of Vickers finest!!
True, true, y'all... BUT... isn't the transformation of a very rare plastic kit into a whif another form of heresy? A kit that many people would pay a lot for and you prefer to cut it into pieces for a special project? Just a thought.
Quote from: Stargazer2006 on September 29, 2011, 05:28:24 AM
True, true, y'all... BUT... isn't the transformation of a very rare plastic kit into a whif another form of heresy? A kit that many people would pay a lot for and you prefer to cut it into pieces for a special project? Just a thought.
I tend to adopt the philosophy of live and let live. Remember that like the dung beetle, the horned slug and the politician; the collector does have a place in polystyrene ecology. Personally, I'd rather have a kit on the workbench rather than a box on the shelf but I suppose that "one man's fish is another man's poisson" (or something like that)
Quote from: Rheged on September 29, 2011, 06:10:42 AM
"one man's fish is another man's poisson" (or something like that)
Any more like that and it's the naughty stair for you ;D
Quote from: NARSES2 on September 29, 2011, 07:32:13 AM
Quote from: Rheged on September 29, 2011, 06:10:42 AM
"one man's fish is another man's poisson" (or something like that)
Any more like that and it's the naughty stair for you ;D
I've been sitting there so long I have squatters rights on the step!
Quote from: Rheged on September 29, 2011, 07:38:54 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on September 29, 2011, 07:32:13 AM
Quote from: Rheged on September 29, 2011, 06:10:42 AM
"one man's fish is another man's poisson" (or something like that)
Any more like that and it's the naughty stair for you ;D
I've been sitting there so long I have squatters rights on the step!
Reminds me of the first day of the school year at secondary school. Every year there would be a mad scramble for the best desks - the ones at the back - and then the master would come in and rearrange things. I was normally moved and placed within "swatting" distance :-\ ;D
Quote from: NARSES2 on September 29, 2011, 07:45:55 AM
Reminds me of the first day of the school year at secondary school. Every year there would be a mad scramble for the best desks - the ones at the back - and then the master would come in and rearrange things. I was normally moved and placed within "swatting" distance :-\ ;D
Sounds just like my own life story... ROTFL! ;D
As a former teacher, i can reveal that if you are a twerp sitting at the back of the class, you are in the sights of the teacher standing at the front. It's the individuals who sit at the front who are out of your line of sight. Fortunately, not many twerps ever realised that.
I'm a former teacher too! And what you're saying makes some sense... or rather it did at the time when the teacher's desk was raised, but now it's level with the rest of the classroom...
I'm a former twerp!
Why couldn't you have told me this much earlier in my life? ;)
Is twerp the same as "class clown" in the big cities USA? ;D
While the guys were comparing their prowess on the basketball court or the back-seat of the car and the girls passed little encoded love notes, I just sat in the back doing what-if designs, planes, ships, trains, space stations, buildings. When busted by the teacher, she promptly had a talk with my counselor and next term, I was in drafting, print shop , electronics lab, and woodworking.
Quote from: RussC on September 29, 2011, 11:46:22 AM
Is twerp the same as "class clown" in the big cities USA? ;D
While the guys were comparing their prowess on the basketball court or the back-seat of the car and the girls passed little encoded love notes, I just sat in the back doing what-if designs, planes, ships, trains, space stations, buildings. When busted by the teacher, she promptly had a talk with my counselor and next term, I was in drafting, print shop , electronics lab, and woodworking.
You should forever be grateful to that counselor... Some kids are forced to carry on in high school learning useless stuff instead of building on their creativity...
Quote from: Stargazer2006 on September 29, 2011, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: RussC on September 29, 2011, 11:46:22 AM
Is twerp the same as "class clown" in the big cities USA? ;D
While the guys were comparing their prowess on the basketball court or the back-seat of the car and the girls passed little encoded love notes, I just sat in the back doing what-if designs, planes, ships, trains, space stations, buildings. When busted by the teacher, she promptly had a talk with my counselor and next term, I was in drafting, print shop , electronics lab, and woodworking.
You should forever be grateful to that counselor... Some kids are forced to carry on in high school learning useless stuff instead of building on their creativity...
Was grateful indeed, plus my later employers. That school became a technical school and even had a television studio and a aeronautics ground school. The instructor for that one had worked many years at TWA and with a phone call, obtained obsolete but functional link trainers and even an early 707 simulator.
Quote from: RussC on September 29, 2011, 11:46:22 AM
Is twerp the same as "class clown" in the big cities USA? ;D
Exactly so! Some class twerps were bright but bored, some dim but posessed of low animal cunning and one or two just revolting. I could easily deal with the bright ones, the dim ones were usually amenable to reason but for the evil ones, cremation was probably the only answer.
Ah right. I suppose I was the "bright but bored" in some subjects then. It was in those classes that I could be a little "playfull". One master took me to one side in the third year and explained a few facts of life to me. Along the lines of "it may seem easy to you Edwards, but others are really having to work hard on this". First time I was ever spoken to man to man and it had the desired effect. Behaved (mostly) after that :thumbsup:
What proves your point is that in the subjects I had to work at (maths & physics) I was as good as gold.
Mind you on one occasion nearly gave a master a nervous attack simply by keeping quiet and not taking up at least two opportunities he gave for "comment". In the end he asked me if I was alright - cheek ;D
Quote from: NARSES2 on September 30, 2011, 01:32:23 AM
Ah right. I suppose I was the "bright but bored" in some subjects then. It was in those classes that I could be a little "playfull". One master took me to one side in the third year and explained a few facts of life to me. Along the lines of "it may seem easy to you Edwards, but others are really having to work hard on this". First time I was ever spoken to man to man and it had the desired effect. Behaved (mostly) after that :thumbsup:
What proves your point is that in the subjects I had to work at (maths & physics) I was as good as gold.
Mind you on one occasion nearly gave a master a nervous attack simply by keeping quiet and not taking up at least two opportunities he gave for "comment". In the end he asked me if I was alright - cheek ;D
I too had the mano y mano talk with an instructor from chemistry. It involved oxidizers, fuels - reagents.....and noise.
Between that, machining and modelmaking- I'm amazed sometimes that I still have 10 digits only lightly scarred. :o
Quote from: RussC on September 30, 2011, 02:10:35 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on September 30, 2011, 01:32:23 AM
Ah right. I suppose I was the "bright but bored" in some subjects then. It was in those classes that I could be a little "playfull". One master took me to one side in the third year and explained a few facts of life to me. Along the lines of "it may seem easy to you Edwards, but others are really having to work hard on this". First time I was ever spoken to man to man and it had the desired effect. Behaved (mostly) after that :thumbsup:
What proves your point is that in the subjects I had to work at (maths & physics) I was as good as gold.
Mind you on one occasion nearly gave a master a nervous attack simply by keeping quiet and not taking up at least two opportunities he gave for "comment". In the end he asked me if I was alright - cheek ;D
I too had the mano y mano talk with an instructor from chemistry. It involved oxidizers, fuels - reagents.....and noise.
Between that, machining and modelmaking- I'm amazed sometimes that I still have 10 digits only lightly scarred. :o
I had assumed that any of the inhabitants of Whiffworld would fall into the "Bright but bored" category. JMNs are more the dim but cunning group.
This is turning into a 'School Tales' thread....... ;D
I had a buddy at school, Rob Johns, who was Canadian, whose Dad was a Prof in Nuclear Physics who on loan to Oxford Uni for a year or two. We were both in the Chemistry A set and for one practical test had to build a rig to produce aniline. This involved heating some noxious mix to an outrageous temperature and distilling the fumes produced. As it was the middle of winter we couldn't get it hot enough for the reaction to start, so kept adding more and more Bunsen burners, with asbestos (!) sheets around the outside to keep the heat in. All was going well until our Chemistry Master approached, arms waving and shouting VERY loudly!
We stepped back from the equipment to find the whole lab was filled with a dense smoke cloud and the bench on which our equipment was resting was on fire! ;D
After the application of a few fire extinguishers normal order was returned, which is more than can be said for the state of mine and Rob's reputation afterward!!!
Quote from: Stargazer2006 on September 29, 2011, 05:28:24 AM
True, true, y'all... BUT... isn't the transformation of a very rare plastic kit into a whif another form of heresy? A kit that many people would pay a lot for and you prefer to cut it into pieces for a special project? Just a thought.
Fair comment but, exactly what have rarity & cost got to do with anything? I'll cut any kit into pieces for a special project just because it's FUN!!! If I could get hold of an old Esci TU-22 Backfire ( a very rare kit that people might pay a lot for), then I'd cheerfully slice it up & combine it with parts from the TU-22 Blinder kit for another weird idea of mine!!
To me, rarity and cost are irrelevant. Besides, I didn't pay all that much for the VC-10s. I certainly wouldn't pay the £30+ prices I've seen on evilbay & various second hand outlets. Of course, people that DO pay those prices are more likely to collectors are they not. I regard buying kits and NOT intending to build them as the ultimate heresy!! ;D
Quote from: albeback on October 08, 2011, 02:25:50 AM
I regard buying kits and NOT intending to build them as the ultimate heresy!! ;D
On this I totally agree!!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Stargazer2006 on October 08, 2011, 04:02:08 AM
Quote from: albeback on October 08, 2011, 02:25:50 AM
I regard buying kits and NOT intending to build them as the ultimate heresy!! ;D
On this I totally agree!!! :thumbsup:
Absolutely agree!
What really frosted my tuccus was once getting an inquiry about a kit I was auctioning on EvilBay and the prospective buyer wanted high resolution pictures of the box. I promptly described the year of the kit and the basic condition. The individual reiterated the request and explained that the value of the kit , in the circles that he travelled in, was severely determined by the fact that it should have NO store price stickers, magic marker OR stickers from the manufacturer adding to the labelling, and deal-breakers like a slash mark from the hobby store stockist's box cutter knife or having the parts bags opened (which many model builders do in order to assure the kit is complete!!!!!). Since this fellow is simply one who will bid, buy and then give me a bad rating if the instruction sheet was dog-eared, I told him the kit was bought by me from a smokers household and I had it in my garage in Arizona but I would give it a check for scorpions before mailing. :blink:
LOVE the bit about scorpions Russ! :thumbsup: ;D I bet you never heard from HIM again!
Many years ago I bought the entire stock from an ironmongers-cum-model shop in Derby (it's a long story......) and included in that lot were 4-5 Frog 1/96 scale V bombers, two of which were the Vulcan and the Valiant in French Tri-ang labelled boxes, the Vulcan having been opened at some stage but the Valiant still had its original Sellotape fasteners on each side and end. Years later I decided to sell some of these and took them to the Model Engineer Exhibition to seek out some traders. One nearly grabbed my arm off when he saw they were French labelled kits but I told him the Vulcan was missing its canopy, but that didn't faze him, he offered me £50 for it! :thumbsup:
I said I had no idea what condition the Valiant was in as I'd never opened it and offered to do so. He shouted 'DON'T OPEN THE BOX!' and nearly wrenched it out of my hands to stop me. I asked why not and he said it was worth far more as it was, even if it had house brick in there. That was fine by me, specially as he offered me £75 for it!!!!!
Those two deals paid for my entire trip to the show, including hotel and meals, and I made a tidy profit as well. Should I worry? No, I have an Airfix 1/72 Vulcan now and I bet I 'll have a Valiant soon, both at half the prices he gave me. :lol: