What if

General Modelling Forum => General Modeling topics => The "WHIF's You Have Found" => Topic started by: grumpybadger on May 14, 2011, 09:35:25 AM

Title: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on May 14, 2011, 09:35:25 AM
Well sorta...footage of a Libyan rebel pickup fitted with a turret from a BMP.  So not truly a WHIF, more food for thought I guess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmZyqjLjx5U&feature=player_embedded#at=22 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmZyqjLjx5U&feature=player_embedded#at=22)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on May 25, 2011, 02:30:50 AM
And a better, clearer video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwqS8Km1T7s&feature=share&fmt=18 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwqS8Km1T7s&feature=share&fmt=18)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Jschmus on May 25, 2011, 07:05:44 AM
I've been watching this thing in Libya since it kicked off, checking the news for interesting photos.  I've uploaded a bunch of them to Photobucket, in another public album:

http://s19.photobucket.com/albums/b170/jason_schmus/Libya%202011/
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on May 25, 2011, 09:01:25 AM
Very nice  ;D
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on May 27, 2011, 12:56:57 PM
That is one SERIOUS piece of kit...
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Spey_Phantom on May 28, 2011, 12:18:14 AM
you gonna hand it to those rebels, they make the A-team look like pansies  ;D
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: dumaniac on May 28, 2011, 02:54:55 AM
desperate times call for desperate measures - that's some serious calibre they are using

makes the parking in a the supermarket on Saturday mornings pale into insignificance
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Jschmus on May 30, 2011, 08:37:47 PM
I added a few more images over the weekend, though I had a devil of a time doing it.  The internet's been wonky around here the last few days.

One of the images shows a Galeb trainer sitting in the hangar with the gun access panel flipped up.  The rebels found it in a hangar in Misrata, and opened it up intending to strip out the machine guns for other use.  Alas, someone else had already snagged them.  Another photo shows a group of rebels praying.  In that one photo are two variations on woodland camo, a couple of soldiers wearing one of the newer desert schemes, and four guys wearing the Desert Storm-vintage chocolate chip stuff.  These guys will use whatever they can get their hands on.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on May 31, 2011, 11:38:35 AM
There's some devastating Tacticals there...
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Jschmus on May 31, 2011, 11:42:21 AM
Quote from: IanH on May 31, 2011, 11:38:35 AM
There's some devastating Tacticals there...

I think you mean Technical, but yeah, if it's big and loud, and they can bolt/weld it into the bed of a truck, they'll do it.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on May 31, 2011, 11:53:52 AM
 :banghead:D'oh  About the cammo uniforms they use - have you seen the BGS Sumpfmuster yet?:
http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00077.php
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Jschmus on May 31, 2011, 02:33:55 PM
Added a few more.

They're still using the old recoilless rifles.  No idea how effective they are.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi19.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb170%2Fjason_schmus%2FLibya%25202011%2F20110527_LIBYA-slide-F2PC-jumbo.jpg&hash=324b70e33f08056a311106465b1c3792b48a8a76)

I love this one.  The dude with the binocs is blurry, but the technical is completely in focus.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi19.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb170%2Fjason_schmus%2FLibya%25202011%2F20110528-LIBYA-slide-8LUT-jumbo.jpg&hash=6f7365cfe448dde4b9d244608d2e570c3233549d)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Thiel on May 31, 2011, 11:25:47 PM
I do believe the gunners seat is from an old Volvo.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: NARSES2 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
That photo of the recoiless rifle is one of the best of seen which explains why not to stand behind it !
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on June 01, 2011, 02:13:13 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
That photo of the recoiless rifle is one of the best of seen which explains why not to stand behind it !
The Soviet Tankies Helmet on the gunner gets me!
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: rickshaw on June 01, 2011, 07:36:34 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
That photo of the recoiless rifle is one of the best of seen which explains why not to stand behind it !

BDA - Backblast Danger Area - a triangular zone with the apex's tip at the venturi  exit of the Rcl.   The blast picks up anything loose on the ground and throws it backwards at a velocity nearly equal to the shell leaving the muzzle.  For the 106mm RCL IIRC its about 100 metres deep by about 25 metres wide.

Its actually a lot more spectacular on film than it is in real life.  Its usually just a really big dust cloud and a load of stones and sticks which gets thrown around but its not a very healthy place to stand when the weapon fires.

Its also why they usually mount them on light vehicles to allow them to "shoot and scoot" in case of return fire.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on June 01, 2011, 09:43:07 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
That photo of the recoiless rifle is one of the best of seen which explains why not to stand behind it !
or site it too close to a wall!
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: NARSES2 on June 02, 2011, 07:03:48 AM
Quote from: IanH on June 01, 2011, 09:43:07 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
That photo of the recoiless rifle is one of the best of seen which explains why not to stand behind it !
or site it too close to a wall!

I've read that that was a problem with bazookas and other rocket type launchers as well ? Dangerous to fire from an enclosed space like an upstairs room, wheras the PIAT, as discussed could be used safely indoors because of the lack of "backblast"
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on June 02, 2011, 01:10:35 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 02, 2011, 07:03:48 AM
Quote from: IanH on June 01, 2011, 09:43:07 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
That photo of the recoiless rifle is one of the best of seen which explains why not to stand behind it !
or site it too close to a wall!

I've read that that was a problem with bazookas and other rocket type launchers as well ? Dangerous to fire from an enclosed space like an upstairs room, wheras the PIAT, as discussed could be used safely indoors because of the lack of "backblast"
Yep - the gasses would cook you in an enclosed space, whereas the PIAT was a Spigot Mortar - the reverse forces recocked the spring...
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Jschmus on June 02, 2011, 01:33:08 PM
Added a few more images today.  The variety of camouflage patterns is mind-boggling.  There are even a couple of soldiers in the photos wearing blue and purple.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on June 02, 2011, 01:38:29 PM
Police kit
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: rickshaw on June 02, 2011, 07:12:02 PM
Quote from: IanH on June 02, 2011, 01:10:35 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 02, 2011, 07:03:48 AM
Quote from: IanH on June 01, 2011, 09:43:07 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 01, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
That photo of the recoiless rifle is one of the best of seen which explains why not to stand behind it !
or site it too close to a wall!

I've read that that was a problem with bazookas and other rocket type launchers as well ? Dangerous to fire from an enclosed space like an upstairs room, wheras the PIAT, as discussed could be used safely indoors because of the lack of "backblast"
Yep - the gasses would cook you in an enclosed space, whereas the PIAT was a Spigot Mortar - the reverse forces recocked the spring...

"Cooking"?  Mmm, I've always had it explained that the real problem is over-pressure.  The gases can't escape from the room and you end up with burst ear drums.  Perhaps best illustrated by the experience of the US Marines in Hue where they were manhandling 106mm Rcls into buildings and firing them, with the result they ended up with blood coming from their ears.

Apart from PIAT which could be fired from an enclosed space you have also ARMBRUST and similar weapons which are actually modified Davis Guns - they use a counter-mass to absorb the recoil.  By using a mass of compressed plastic "flakes" they can be fired indoors.  The room fills with a snowstorm of plastic flakes apparently.  As long as you're not standing directly behind the weapon you're apparently safe.

In theory, rocket propelled weapons like a Bazooka or an RPG could be fired indoors if the room was well ventilated but I wouldn't want to chance it myself.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on June 03, 2011, 05:06:38 AM
Rickshaw - that's what they told me when training on the Charlie G.  The worst for me was the Backblast from a WOMBAT - I was 300 yards away, and I could still feel the heat :blink:
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Jschmus on June 20, 2011, 07:25:00 PM
New video:

http://youtu.be/jCyRBUAEneM
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Old Wombat on June 21, 2011, 02:48:51 AM
Quote from: IanH on June 03, 2011, 05:06:38 AM
Rickshaw - that's what they told me when training on the Charlie G.  The worst for me was the Backblast from a WOMBAT - I was 300 yards away, and I could still feel the heat :blink:

Sorry! :blink:
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: NARSES2 on June 21, 2011, 02:53:39 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on June 21, 2011, 02:48:51 AM
Quote from: IanH on June 03, 2011, 05:06:38 AM
Rickshaw - that's what they told me when training on the Charlie G.  The worst for me was the Backblast from a WOMBAT - I was 300 yards away, and I could still feel the heat :blink:

Sorry! :blink:

Shouldn't have had that Lamb Phal should you  ;D
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: IanH on June 21, 2011, 07:47:43 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on June 21, 2011, 02:53:39 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on June 21, 2011, 02:48:51 AM
Quote from: IanH on June 03, 2011, 05:06:38 AM
Rickshaw - that's what they told me when training on the Charlie G.  The worst for me was the Backblast from a WOMBAT - I was 300 yards away, and I could still feel the heat :blink:

Sorry! :blink:

Shouldn't have had that Lamb Phal should you  ;D
ROFLMAO
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Jschmus on July 12, 2011, 11:22:43 AM
Normally I'd try to post something like this to one of the Model Kit News threads, but I couldn't find any more info about the kit maker, and the subject is relevant to this topic.

1/35 pickup with ZPU-1 heavy machine gun
http://bit.ly/pFY8Km
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: frank2056 on July 12, 2011, 01:36:39 PM
Helmetcam view of some technical trucks (first of several videos)

http://gizmodo.com/5819801/this-is-war-watch-the-libyan-revolution-explode-through-the-lens-of-a-helmet-cam--part-i
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Spey_Phantom on July 16, 2011, 02:38:41 AM
i found a few more A-team builds from the libyan rebels oon google images  ;D

i say F* the A-team, if i got a problem and no one else can help, im hiring these guys  :mellow:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fnimg.sulekha.com%2Fothers%2Foriginal700%2Fmideast-libya-2011-4-6-11-31-18.jpg&hash=d44ad80920201d4ae010896d470fb3320c9c598e)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fc.photoshelter.com%2Fimg-get%2FI0000yRU8GNyYxYc%2Fs%2F600%2F480%2FSN-Libya-0306-012.JPG&hash=65b3144a6151a725f8cb75edbf57d64f451b7fba)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-qvsAncg9QF8%2FTZvxZBf1D5I%2FAAAAAAAABC0%2FQc96c0YUwiA%2Fs1600%2Flibya.jpg&hash=effe80f6998c865cebc2b93c750ad520c569e7a6)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.izismile.com%2Fimg%2Fimg4%2F20110617%2F640%2Funique_madmax_type_libyan_rebel_fighter_weapons_640_33.jpg&hash=87fcf2d5235eb5be95d8eb9f78bd1c59975c2045)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.townhall.com%2FTownhall%2Freu%2Fd%2F2011%255C191%255C2011-07-10T133243Z_01_LIB10_RTRIDSP_0_LIBYA.jpg&hash=8606c67cfa029d605b0676ab6059932a1ddcaf9e)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Sauragnmon on July 16, 2011, 07:58:07 PM
Now THAT is what I call getting Technical.

Hat, Coat, Gone.

Aside - they're exhibiting some really interesting concepts, and the ingenuity is spectacular.  The 57mm rocket pods on the trucks are a little humorous but still interesting.  I'd thought of bolting a ZPU-4 on the back of a flatbed before in roleplaying situations, as it would make a rather effective weapon in some situations - I can imagine the enemy helos would not like to be on the receiving end of that thing.  The ZU-23-2's (I think) on the pickups are pretty impressive.  They're doing a very impressive job of stealing and repairing anything they can.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Weaver on July 17, 2011, 07:34:43 AM
I like the one with the road-warrior armour - very Mad Max!  :thumbsup:

(Wonder what it'll actually stop though, since it's almost certainly just mild-steel plate...)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on July 19, 2011, 02:45:49 AM
Quote from: Weaver on July 17, 2011, 07:34:43 AM
I like the one with the road-warrior armour - very Mad Max!  :thumbsup:

(Wonder what it'll actually stop though, since it's almost certainly just mild-steel plate...)

Oh, not much probably...but it makes them feel protected so it helps build confidence (essential to a all volunteer operation like this).
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Sauragnmon on July 19, 2011, 11:50:13 AM
Considering most of it seems to be sloped at some angle or another, it would likely deflect most stuff that isn't an autocannon, and maybe a few lucky shots from those.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on August 25, 2011, 01:52:03 AM
Ok, here's another one...this time its a BMP-1 turret on either a M577 or a M113 with a DIY extension:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fa4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fhphotos-ak-ash4%2F302735_154144234668679_131507493599020_304480_6897367_n.jpg&hash=a77599fffda549437ae1cddbf5fbc42c55511945)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: rickshaw on August 26, 2011, 05:14:06 AM
Could be an early M577 - they were literally boxes welded on top of standard M113s.  Later ones had especially built hull sides without the weld lines.  Bit difficult to tell but I think the slot on the side is non-standard so I suspect its some sort of modified M113 rather than a modified M577.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: dy031101 on August 26, 2011, 08:52:54 AM
Does the turret really need to occupy that much internal height?

Philippine has a similar contraption with a Scorpion turret without that much added hull height.

But then of course, if all they had are a few M577, that's what'll be the basis.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Old Wombat on August 28, 2011, 12:12:05 AM
I'd suggest an old M577 variant or a locally produced copy.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Weaver on August 28, 2011, 01:45:01 AM
Libyan innovation:

http://www.innovationnewsdaily.com/libyan-rebels-military-robot-2056/

Robot gun carrier, remote weapon station and shoulder-fired aircraft rocket (hope it's got  good face-shield!)... :blink:
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Weaver on August 28, 2011, 01:57:34 AM
Can't find a pic of it on the web, but there was an interesting rig on TV the other night. It was the usual Technical configuration, but the launcher in the back had about ten small rocket tubs in two rows, AND a pair of AT-3 ATGWs mounted on top of it! Couldn't see if they actually had the control box wired up or if they were firing the Saggers as unguided rockets, but AT-3 is notably simple....
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: raafif on August 28, 2011, 08:00:43 PM
the rebels have been watching StarWars .....

the SandCrawler
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi202%2Fmalta1565%2F800xv.jpg&hash=d2911f50650de63e6c042298a3a897e620a9e90c)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi202%2Fmalta1565%2F20110610_LIBYA-slide-IQ84-jumbo.jpg&hash=5f348a0c03453d57bfc82352717fdf1ab7335e05)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: ChernayaAkula on August 28, 2011, 10:48:54 PM
^ "OOTINI!"

In related news, German TV news had some footage of what looks like a Ratel IFV with a rocket pod added to the turret.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi107.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm309%2FChernayaAkula%2Fratel-libya.jpg&hash=fb51e0be1b3dc184d9a1c5623bfcfb71ef9f4c93)
Screen cap taken from "Tagesthemen" online version.

Very interesting, as Lybia was not a known operator of the Ratel. Elsewhere on the net (CLICKY! (http://esotericarmour.blogspot.com/2011/08/libya-national-liberation-army-qatar.html)), it has been suggested that the Ratels come from or were procured by Qatar.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: PR19_Kit on August 29, 2011, 12:45:17 AM
They showed a piccie of that vehicle on the Beeb news this morning too.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on August 30, 2011, 08:01:16 AM
Yep, the current theory is that Qatar supplied a few Ratels (without armament) to the NTC...the first clue was the presence of a Qatari flag on the vehicle.  Considering their unarmed state, the rocket seems the least crazy thing the rebels have done to arm them.

Like this in fact, looks like a ZPU on top of Ratel 20 IFV:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi55.tinypic.com%2F24cw3mq.jpg&hash=f365d5e00f11178d45c865f10e0fdfeae113e7e5)
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on September 20, 2011, 02:04:52 PM
Ok, here's another odd ball for y'all:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg192.imageshack.us%2Fimg192%2F3426%2F800xh.jpg&hash=b65e7c05917dc79401006e405df72724ac02e047)

It would seem that the kaddafi loyalists added the sheepskins prior to it being captured by the rebels.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: NARSES2 on September 21, 2011, 01:13:55 AM
Why ?????  :blink: :blink: :blink:
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: grumpybadger on September 21, 2011, 01:50:17 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on September 21, 2011, 01:13:55 AM
Why ?????  :blink: :blink: :blink:
I'm going to assume that:
a. they needed to camoflage the tank.
b. they had a large number of skins lying about.
c. there may have been some "hash" involved in the decision process.  :rolleyes:

Still, it does kinda blend in doesn't it.
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: NARSES2 on September 21, 2011, 01:57:02 AM
Option C I understand  :party:

I wonder if the sheepskins would have any impact on the tanks thermal image ?
Title: Re: Libyan WHIF's
Post by: Old Wombat on September 21, 2011, 03:24:30 AM
The sheepskins are a great colour match to the surrounding countryside & wool is an excellent thermal insulator, so I would suggest it would have a significant impact on reducing the tank's thermal image............................. & sheep are a readily available resource in rural Libya.