You know I always had the idea to turn a Skynight into a attack jet. Tell me it doesn't look like an early, straight winged version of an A-6 Intruder! The follow on "Missileer" would of have been great too! I've never been able to get a hold of a 1/72 kit of either though. Those rocket pods sound like a neat idea. Wonder how they fair on a carrier based aircraft?
So many ideas....
It makes me think of a jet powered Skyraider. I have one in the stash to be done in USAF SEA camo & armed like a Skyraider.
Quote from: Cliffy B on August 18, 2010, 03:50:56 PM
You know I always had the idea to turn a Skynight into a attack jet. Tell me it doesn't look like an early, straight winged version of an A-6 Intruder! The follow on "Missileer" would of have been great too! I've never been able to get a hold of a 1/72 kit of either though. Those rocket pods sound like a neat idea. Wonder how they fair on a carrier based aircraft?
So many ideas....
Quote from: Cliffy B on August 18, 2010, 03:50:56 PMYou know I always had the idea to turn a Skyknight into a attack jet. Tell me it doesn't look like an early, straight winged version of an A-6 Intruder! The follow on "Missileer" would of have been great too! I've never been able to get a hold of a 1/72 kit of either though. Those rocket pods sound like a neat idea. Wonder how they fair on a carrier based aircraft?
So many ideas....
I can not imagine any real issues with wingtip mounted fuel tanks or rocket launching pods on the Skyknight. There were other aircraft of a similar size such as the Banshee and Panther that operated with wingtip mounted fuel tanks that did not have any problems. I had actually considered a WHIF suggestion for the F9F Panther with wingtip mounted rocket pods but decided to not go through with it since the Panther is so much smaller in comparison to the Banshee and Skyknight.
I think the Skyknight would look a lot better with wingtip mounted fuel tanks or the Scorpion rocket pods.
Adding additional stores pylons under the wings for bombs and rockets would be good. Maybe an attack version of the Skyknight for interdiction missions over North Korea (Korean War) or attacking the Ho Chi Minh trail during the Vietnam War.
The basic F3D only had two pylons, one on each inboard wing section, the aircraft modified to carry Sparrows were
the only aircraft with outer section pylons.
After looking through the Ginter on the Skynight one thing stands out, no photo of a folded wing F3D
with any stores mounted on the outer wing panel, this includes the Sparrow carriers.
Combined with the F3D ordnance chart (attached) it tells me that the F3D outer wing sections and wingfold were not
stressed for heavy stores carriage.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FF3D_ORD_01.png&hash=6b6860f0aa15b5e33ffe8586b340d4a673ac4862)
The thing to bear in mind about the F-89 is that it was designed to carry large wing-tip pods, but even then the
thin wing with heavy tip masses caused major problems with aero-elasticity that led to the grounding of the Scorpions
and forced Northrop engineers to redesign the wing.
The FH2-2 was also designed and stressed for its 200-gallon tip tanks. Ditto the F9F series.
Adding more stores pylons or big wingtip masses would require massive redesign ... which leads into my next post. ;D
Jon
F3D-3 Part 1
When Douglas proposed the swept wing F3D-3 variant of the Skynight they also proposed an
entire suite of stores based on their aerodynamic fuel store design.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FF3D3_01.png&hash=379a5e80830a7f440f8097dcbb451a6623529454)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FF3D3_02.png&hash=4b234af25e1386b2f548c50de96f6cf128098e60)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FF3D3_03.png&hash=06521f4fa55d28a61099e635234813f9bc15581a)
F3D-3 Part 2
Being thorough as ever the Douglas team did not neglect the photo recce mission,
they also kept the ground attack and air-to-air bomber intercept mission in mind.
The system design also included interchangeable noses for various missions.
So I suppose one could apply these F3D-3 proposals to the earlier Skynight. ;D ;D
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FF3D3_04.png&hash=0b382a62714bae913bea055f1914fc90e93aad0d)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FF3D3_05.png&hash=cc47de7ead583a1eb27fe2656f13b145efaa1a53)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FF3D3_06.png&hash=440a4f97b9ad9e225d939e22b4b76049d14fa4a9)
Revell,
Please rerelease the Matchbox Skynight :thumbsup:
I have one in the stash but am missing one of the engine panels (and the instructions so not sure if it is a front or back part, think back). I actuall would like to make 2 RW versions, Korean War nightfighter and USMC as used in Vietnam. But, that swept wing design is calling. If I could just get 2 more kits (or 3, or 4...).
Jon,
Thanks for the technical details and history. I find the swept wing version quite interesting as you can see the family resemblance to the A-3 Skywarrior and B-66 Destroyer in that three view drawing from the Ginter book.
Though for a WHIF, the thought of adding those huge rocket pods from the Scorpion is still attractive and reality be damned! ;^)
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on August 19, 2010, 12:28:25 PM
Though for a WHIF, the thought of adding those huge rocket pods from the Scorpion is still attractive and reality be damned! ;^)
Non-folding wing in USAF markings following the complete failure of the F-89 program. ;D
Belgian markings an alternative to the Clunk. :thumbsup:
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on August 19, 2010, 01:01:50 PMNon-folding wing in USAF markings following the complete failure of the F-89 program. ;D
Belgian markings an alternative to the Clunk. :thumbsup:
USAF operation is a good call. Granted my first thoughts were just about the rocket pods and not really about the operator. As a bomber interceptor operating in adverse weather or at night where the two man crew would be ideal for such missions.
All of this talk about proposed versions of the Skynight got me thinking about its short history. The plane apparently had poor carrier handling when it came to landings and takeoffs. What exactly caused this? Engines?, Wing design? What? Was this an issue that Douglas addressed in any of the subsequent concept models? I've been wanting to include it in my alt history as a heavy bomber but only if I can get around the poor carrier bird problem. Any thoughts guys? :unsure:
The available thrust from the two Westinghouse J34-WE-34 turbojets rated at 3,250 lb. thrust each in the F3D-1 and F3D-2, or the two Westinghouse J46-WE-36 engines rated at 3,400 lb thrust each in the F3D-3 along with the maximum takeoff weight of 27,362 lb. From that you could rightly assume that the engines were a contributing factor to the performance issues experienced with the Skyknight. Maybe a WHIF version could be paired with a pair of J52s as used in the later versions of the A-4 Skyhawk to get around that problem? Another must have is ejection seats for the crew since the original Skyknight was not equipped with this feature and relied on an escape chute through the bottom of the aircraft for aircrew egress in an emergency.
Actually the F3D-2 carrier suitability test notes reproduced in the Ginter rate both the airframe and engine as 'acceptable'.
The biggest criticism is poor forward visibility due to the shape of the windscreen panels on the pilot's side and view to stbd.
being cluttered by the radar scope etc.
The XF3D-1 suitability test notes were more negative with the majority of the comments concerning the landing gear,
and aside from overly bouncy oleos, the majority of the criticism revolves around the fact that it was a tricycle gear
layout.
Among the recommendations:
"That consideration be given to a tail-wheel-type alighting gear with a variable height tailwheel
strut, for this and future carrier-type aircraft to overcome the deficiencies encountered in the
subject tests and inherent in the use of nosewheel-type alighting gear in carrier operations."
In udda woids : "We don wan no stinkin' trikes!" ;D :blink:
VC-4 took the Skynight to sea during cruises in 1952 and 1953.
Jon
p.s. as the J46 never materialized a production F3D-3 would definitely need a different engine.
The J52 is shorter in length abd slightly larger in diameter than than the J46. BTW the F3D-2
nacelles were sized for the J46.
p.s.s. "When the XF3Ds were at Muroc they were tested by the Air Force, and the discussions were
made to equip the Skynight with afterburners to meet the Air Force specifications. However, the
Air Force decided to live with the F-94 and develop the F-89."
Found a drawing of the F-89 Scorpion with the wing tip mounted rocket pods and with a little bit of editing I managed to copy and paste to the F-10 drawing. While the pods are not to exact scale they do give you a good idea of what the SkyKnight would look like with those huge pods attached at the wing tips. Maybe the USAF version could have a pair of AIR-2 Genie rockets on the under wing stores pylons?
***Some of the details in the attached drawing were obscured because I had to re-size the image to allow uploading. It was larger than the 256kb limit :^( ***
Khemedi. To complement their Supermarine Attackers. :party:
Wasn't the Skynight underpowered? Beef up the engines to carry all that extra mass.
SkyKnight, folks, with a K!
Kni! Sorry, I couldn't resist. :wacko:
Quote from: Daryl J. on October 26, 2012, 06:21:08 PM
Kni! Sorry, I couldn't resist. :wacko:
Ah, yes, Monty Pythons Sky Knights who say "Kni"........may we expect it to carry a warload of Antiochian Holy Hand Grenades in due course?
Sorry, that's meaningless unless you too have watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Quote from: Rheged on October 27, 2012, 03:25:07 AM
Quote from: Daryl J. on October 26, 2012, 06:21:08 PM
Kni! Sorry, I couldn't resist. :wacko:
Ah, yes, Monty Pythons Sky Knights who say "Kni"........may we expect it to carry a warload of Antiochian Holy Hand Grenades in due course?
Sorry, that's meaningless unless you too have watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Actually anti-personnel shrubbery's. :rolleyes:
Quote from: The Big Gimper on October 27, 2012, 07:34:55 AM
Quote from: Rheged on October 27, 2012, 03:25:07 AM
Quote from: Daryl J. on October 26, 2012, 06:21:08 PM
Kni! Sorry, I couldn't resist. :wacko:
Ah, yes, Monty Pythons Sky Knights who say "Kni"........may we expect it to carry a warload of Antiochian Holy Hand Grenades in due course?
Sorry, that's meaningless unless you too have watched Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Actually anti-personnel shrubbery's.
There was a rosegrower in Aberdeen who produced three varieties of "security rose" called "Fenris Wolf" "Mitgard Serpent" and "Kraken". They had quite pronounced thorns(and pretty little white flowers too) I used them in a garden hedge some years ago to deter the local idiots. Would you like these in your shrubbery?
If it was painted black for night operations could it be called "The Dark Knight"? ;D
Quote from: Go4fun on October 27, 2012, 02:53:44 PM
If it was painted black for night operations could it be called "The Dark Knight"? ;D
Good call. :cheers:
But I read that a Marine squadron in Korea (VMF(N)-513) had something a little better..."Flying Nightmares". ;D
I revive this thread, because I plan to build a 1:72 swept-wing F3D-3. I already had some sources - but the info and scans here is additional and valuable material, thanks a lot.
Will be a kitbash, as far as I can tell...
- Fuselage from a 1:72 Matchbox Skyknight, maybe with a slightly more pointed nose?
- Wings from an 1:72 Italeri B-66 - just the outer parts. Looks suitable.
- New fin from a 1:144 B-1B. Not perfect, but plausible in shape and size
- Horizontal stabilizers from a 1:72 Il-28
Will receive four 1st generation Sparrows under the wings, and a new landing gear (since the Skyknight parts are missing...).
Wil be a USN aircraft and end up in Light Gull Grey/White with colorfil markings - probably with a black radome.
Not certain when it enters hardware stage, but the parts are complete, so the project is ready to start ;)
Well, another thread revival, because I take the plan to the hardware stage!
Pretty much stick to the plan, just that the complete fin will come from the B-66.
Stay tuned, more to come soon in the Picture Post section. :lol:
Quote from: Go4fun on October 27, 2012, 02:53:44 PM
If it was painted black for night operations could it be called "The Dark Knight"? ;D
Or the "Night Knight"!? :blink:
Sounds like it would have some Elvgren nose-art...
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 01, 2014, 12:07:32 PM
Well, another thread revival, because I take the plan to the hardware stage!
Pretty much stick to the plan, just that the complete fin will come from the B-66.
Stay tuned, more to come soon in the Picture Post section. :lol:
Looking forward to it!
Quote from: Old Wombat on May 01, 2014, 12:27:33 PM
Quote from: Go4fun on October 27, 2012, 02:53:44 PM
If it was painted black for night operations could it be called "The Dark Knight"? ;D
Or the "Night Knight"!? :blink:
Or, possibly "Nightie Knight"......
Which is causing conflicting images in my mind one including a scantily clad, buxom young lady :wub:, the other.......................
Radish! :banghead:
Looking forward to this as well ! Another under-whiffed aeroplane.
:cheers:
How about mating a F3D with a U-2? Could look like this...
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviationtrivia.info%2Fimages%2FF3D_Skyknight_Hedger.jpg&hash=dc9a592bb3782ce5636ef0c88984a3432d07d805)
Probably not the RC model builder's intention, but feasible! ;)
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 02, 2014, 04:37:04 AM
How about mating a F3D with a U-2? Could look like this...
NOW you're talking! ;D :lol:
It's all yours... ;)
Meanwhile... ;D
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7418/13907911547_d7dc99a327_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nbZFyp)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight" (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP (https://flic.kr/p/nbZFyp) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
That looks right :thumbsup:
Wow, that's not too far off from an A-6 Intruder.
Cheers,
Logan
Yup, from certain angles you really get reminded a lot of the A-6, e .g. from front/above, like in the pic here. In contrast to that, a view from low behind reminds a lot of the A-3 Skywarrior. O.K., its cousin lent the wing surfaces, but the F3D-3 really looks like the missing link between the Skyknight and the Skywarrior! And it is more appealing than I expected, it's a shame how the original straight wings "hise" the elegant, teardrop-shaped fuselage.
Meanwhile...
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2939/14079741446_3929a4a345_z.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/nsbmAS)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP (https://flic.kr/p/nsbmAS) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 04, 2014, 02:29:07 AM
the F3D-3 really looks like the missing link between the Skyknight and the Skywarrior
Totally
Slow progress, still waiting for an aftermarket decal sheet for stencils etc., as the Matchbox kit's decal sheet is rather simple:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7308/14143821853_5172181dc9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxQMtt)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP (https://flic.kr/p/nxQMtt) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
That's awesome ! Who knew that the Skynight was an Intruder on the side ?
:lol:
Lovely!
That looks JUST like a Skywarrior that's had it's engines caught in a giant bench vice and squished into the fuselage!
With the original straight wings you don't notice the similarities, but Thomas' works brings it all into focus. Nice one! :thumbsup: :bow:
Really liking that! :thumbsup:
Skyknight, Skywarrior, Intruder &, from certain angles, the front end reminds me of the DH Venom.
Lots of eye-twisting in this build - Cool! :mellow:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 06, 2014, 11:43:57 PM(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7308/14143821853_5172181dc9_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxQMtt)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) - WiP (https://flic.kr/p/nxQMtt) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
WOW! :wub: :bow:
Great work and totally believable!
Thank you - more to come soon. I tried to stay as close to the F3D-3 design as possible, hence the A-3 wing donations. It's truly "family style", and the result looks VERY good. Just has some trouble with the final decals (which arrived yesterday, so I can make finishing touches), but it's close to completion. ;D
Really plausible looking :thumbsup:
hmm!
very nice! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks a lot. Just doing finishing touches, like some Sparrows and final parts. Post about the F3D-3 should come soon. :cheers:
She's done ;D:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/14137654366_56ebe34887_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
More here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,38846.0.html
Looks very nice! :thumbsup:
Lovely! :thumbsup:
Very pretty indeed!
And a clear Douglas family look, as you say.
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 12, 2014, 12:10:24 AM
She's done ;D:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/14137654366_56ebe34887_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
More here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,38846.0.html
You managed to fool them again! This time a YouTuber who specialises in aviation history:
https://youtu.be/H7xq0-A5XHM (https://youtu.be/H7xq0-A5XHM)
Quote from: Caveman on March 05, 2021, 12:49:03 PM
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 12, 2014, 12:10:24 AM
She's done ;D:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/14137654366_56ebe34887_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
More here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,38846.0.html
You managed to fool them again! This time a YouTuber who specialises in aviation history:
https://youtu.be/H7xq0-A5XHM (https://youtu.be/H7xq0-A5XHM)
I just watched that video and was thinking of what parts I would need to build that. No need now ;D
Gondor
I watched the video, too, and asked why they do not give proper source credit (to anything, BTW) and simply steal other people's material for commercial purposes. That's what actually p!sses me of.
As expected, I not only received no answer, my (public) question with URL link to the original picture was silently deleted within hours... Now an official copyright infringement inquiry is running at YouTube, probably ending in the deletion of the video. We'll see.
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 12, 2014, 12:10:24 AM
She's done ;D:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/14137654366_56ebe34887_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
More here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,38846.0.html
Awesome! (Again) 😉
Thank you. But I agree that this one turned out nicely, even looking very much like the planned aircraft. :lol:
However, I still wonder about the ignorance of the video makers: after all, the picture shows a fictional F3D-3, which is not referred to in the video, and on the carrier in the backgorudn there are F-4s, an RA-5C and even an A-6, so that I can just scratch my head about the "experts'" historical standards, which are (self-)claimed to be high... :rolleyes:
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on March 08, 2021, 01:11:49 AM
Thank you. But I agree that this one turned out nicely, even looking very much like the planned aircraft. :lol:
However, I still wonder about the ignorance of the video makers: after all, the picture shows a fictional F3D-3, which is not referred to in the video, and on the carrier in the background there are F-4s, an RA-5C and even an A-6, so that I can just scratch my head about the "experts'" historical standards, which are (self-)claimed to be high... :rolleyes:
The accuracy of some of these YouTube channels is really questionable. In the video about the Me 323 he says contra-rotating propellers which is absolute rubbish unless it was intended to say that the propellers on one wing rotated in one direction while those on the other wing rotated in the opposite direction.
The background video is no better. In the video on the Hs 129 some of the tanks shown were M60-'s, Israeli I think, and lots of the aircraft types is the videos are not of the same aircraft, an assembly line for F-86's when talking about other aircraft. Poor quality control all over although I do like the formatt and voice of the narrator and some of the information is new to me.
Gondor
Yeah, I see the confusion on contra-rotating versus counter-rotating on a regular basis
:rolleyes:
Oh, I see it's Dark Skies, one of the most rubbish of YouTube "historians". :banghead:
The video has been deleted.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Gondor
The YouTube channel's editor NOW contacted me - after my public request to add proper credit or simply ASK before using stuff via google was simply deleted w/o comment or reaction. I ponder if I should reply at all, but I probably will, just to get my point across.
At least it's a step in the right direction although it is more a case of shutting the gate after the hourse has bolted.
Gondor
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 12, 2014, 12:10:24 AM
She's done ;D:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7416/14137654366_56ebe34887_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u)1:72 Douglas F3D-3/F-10C "Skyknight"; aircraft "215" (s/n 51-336737) of VF-61 'Jolly Rogers' on board of USS Saratoga (CVA-60), Mediterranean Sea, early 1958 (Whif/kitbashing) (https://flic.kr/p/nxib6u) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/people/14802581@N07/), on Flickr
More here: http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,38846.0.html
That is one awesome model
Dizzyfugu!!👍
MAD