I've heard a couple of instances where European firearms manufacturers appeared to have attempted their break into US firearms market by incorporating into their firearms some of the ergonomical features of US-made firearms that are afforded great affections by the US populace.
For example, CZ 40B has a redesigned grip to mimic the M1911 (although part of that is because it was a joint venture with Colt, which wanted to recover some of the lost market share)...... another one is SG556, a SG550 modified to accept aftermarket magazines and stocks for M16/AR15.
Has anyone heard of other examples? Or even those going the other way around in that US firearms manufacturers mimicking ergonomic aspects of popular European guns to increase their chances in European markets?
The American market seems to favour the traditional arrangement, whereas Bullpup designs are more popular in Europe & other parts of the world. I'm no gun expert, the only example I can think of is the Barret M95 bullpup sniper rifle that has had export success but not been purchased by it's parent nation, they preferred the traditional M82 & the Bullpup M82A2 version of that rifle was dropped (although I believe this was more due to it's unusual shoulder firing operation than layout).
It's worth noting that whilst bullpup weapons have a shorter overall length for a given barrel length compared to tradition longarms, the loading sequence is very unnatural and requires the firer to move the weapon away from the aimed position. I was surprised when Australia replaced its SLRs with the Austeyr, but unsurprisingly, the M4 & M16 remain favourites with special forces here.
I think the US market (both civil & military) is quite traditional and given their influence throughout the free world, it's not really surprising that they have no interest in adopting 'unusual' weapons, altho the stillborn OICW system is one that breaks the trend.
Modifying a weapon to accept US style magazines is fairly sensible IMO, standardisation can't hurt at all in that way. Although I think it's more a case of playing to or competing with a possible US market rather than a true desire to standardise a particular design. The US will, however, adopt 'foreign' weapons enmasse where appropriate, such as the MP5, M9 Beretta & M249 SAW.
That standardisation can be a problem however - the adoption of the 7.62mm NATO round by the US & NATO was a classic example. We could have had lighter 'sub-calibre' weapons well before they finally adopted them in the early 60s, altho the USMC stalled on their own M16 refit. However, once the US decided that 5.56mm was the way to go, it didn't take awfully long for other nations (NATO & WARPAC included) to head down similar roads.
While not reading any of the other posts, I've always had a soft spot for the aborted XM8. I've even got an Airsoft version of it ;D
It should be noted that this thing is ergo enabled as (at least on the airsoft version) you can cock it using either hand.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalsecurity.org%2Fmilitary%2Fsystems%2Fground%2Fimages%2Fxm8-poster.jpg&hash=ab9c1c2fa95989b40988ff58e15b44c08f045fae)
Quote from: dy031101 on October 20, 2010, 12:28:19 PM
I've heard a couple of instances where European firearms manufacturers appeared to have attempted their break into US firearms market by incorporating into their firearms some of the ergonomical features of US-made firearms that are afforded great affections by the US populace.
For example, CZ 40B has a redesigned grip to mimic the M1911 (although part of that is because it was a joint venture with Colt, which wanted to recover some of the lost market share)...... another one is SG556, a SG550 modified to accept aftermarket magazines and stocks for M16/AR15.
Has anyone heard of other examples? Or even those going the other way around in that US firearms manufacturers mimicking ergonomic aspects of popular European guns to increase their chances in European markets?
The one ergonomic feature I would like to see in US designed firearms is the Walther/H&K abidextrous magazine release. I have used the traditional "American" magazine release, and the Walther ambidextrous release (exp: Walther P-99). To me it makes much more body mechanics' sense- there is much more strength in the movement required for the Walther release than what is required in the button type release (using the side of the thumb). At the same time it takes the trigger finger off the trigger while reloading- much safer versus self inflicted unintentional firearms wounds.
Mav, Rick, you might want to take your discussion to PM, since it's gone off on a tangent away from ergo guns.
Another ergo gun I like is the P90 (Stargate: SG-1 made me like it ;D ):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fdd%2FFN_P90_-_Civilian_Version.jpg%2F800px-FN_P90_-_Civilian_Version.jpg&hash=11827e6c04f00f47ef300107e69cba0e13b638e7)
Quote from: rickshaw on October 22, 2010, 08:04:55 PM
Quote from: anthonyp on October 22, 2010, 01:53:43 PM
Mav, Rick, you might want to take your discussion to PM, since it's gone off on a tangent away from ergo guns.
Another ergo gun I like is the P90 (Stargate: SG-1 made me like it ;D ):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fdd%2FFN_P90_-_Civilian_Version.jpg%2F800px-FN_P90_-_Civilian_Version.jpg&hash=11827e6c04f00f47ef300107e69cba0e13b638e7)
The only thing Stargate got right was how to hold the weapon, I suspect. Like all Hollywood they seem to think an SMG should be able to be accurate out to 200+ metres! :rolleyes:
The P90 is an interesting weapon, I'll admit. Its an odd calibre and there have been reports of poor reliability but apart from that, its an interesting approach to the problem of a IDW. Personally, I suspect that if you need to fight, you really need a rifle, not a pistol and something is in between won't cut it either. I used to refuse SMGs and M16s when offered them and instead carried a normal service rifle on the basis of that theory.
On the other hand, the P90 has been used in the real world already, with success. The first time I remember seeing it in action was at the end of an embassy seige in Peru in the late 1990's, where the entry team was armed with the P90. It did the job well. The round works fairly well too. It was with that same round that the Major shot up Fort Hood with (using from a pistol).
As I understand it, the problem with the P90 is that a hard knock can disrupt the stack of rounds in the magazine, leading to mis-feeds. I don't know if a solution has been found for this yet.
Quote from: dragon on October 22, 2010, 08:20:21 PM
Quote from: rickshaw on October 22, 2010, 08:04:55 PM
Quote from: anthonyp on October 22, 2010, 01:53:43 PM
Mav, Rick, you might want to take your discussion to PM, since it's gone off on a tangent away from ergo guns.
Another ergo gun I like is the P90 (Stargate: SG-1 made me like it ;D ):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fd%2Fdd%2FFN_P90_-_Civilian_Version.jpg%2F800px-FN_P90_-_Civilian_Version.jpg&hash=11827e6c04f00f47ef300107e69cba0e13b638e7)
The only thing Stargate got right was how to hold the weapon, I suspect. Like all Hollywood they seem to think an SMG should be able to be accurate out to 200+ metres! :rolleyes:
The P90 is an interesting weapon, I'll admit. Its an odd calibre and there have been reports of poor reliability but apart from that, its an interesting approach to the problem of a IDW. Personally, I suspect that if you need to fight, you really need a rifle, not a pistol and something is in between won't cut it either. I used to refuse SMGs and M16s when offered them and instead carried a normal service rifle on the basis of that theory.
On the other hand, the P90 has been used in the real world already, with success. The first time I remember seeing it in action was at the end of an embassy seige in Peru in the late 1990's, where the entry team was armed with the P90. It did the job well. The round works fairly well too. It was with that same round that the Major shot up Fort Hood with (using from a pistol).
Not to take away from the Majors' ability to shoot unarmed and unsuspecting people, but none were wearing armor of any sort. why SMGs are not real popular amongst US forces, compared to carbines.
Isn't the FN Five-seveN 5.7mm round (as used in the P90) designed for good armour-penetration though? Not as good as a rifle round, but much better than other "pistol" calibre ones?
Who frakking cares? Get back to "what feels good in the shooter's hand!"
Although not quite the same nature as that of other examples, the Taiwanese T65 in its earliest prototype form was practically a slightly modified AR-18. Then the M16A1 got introduced into paratrooper and military police units, however, and the American-made rifle was sufficiently well-liked (compared to the M1 carbine and the M14/T57 rifle) such that the external ergonomics of the T65 were altered to match it.
Quote from: pyro-manic on October 26, 2010, 06:11:08 PM
Isn't the FN Five-seveN 5.7mm round (as used in the P90) designed for good armour-penetration though? Not as good as a rifle round, but much better than other "pistol" calibre ones?
Yes. I should have also noted there are range issues as well though. I know in the states there are many trying to ban the FN 5.7 pistol as it is considered an anti Body Armor weapon thus a "cop killer". I have no doubt it is more effective in this area, but (I am guessing- please correct me if I'm wrong) a rifle round fired from a carbine is going to have an advantage over the P-90. Its all trade offs of course. The 5.7 pistol may be well ahead of other hand guns in this department, and comparing a carbine to a pistol is not really fair so it could be quite effective as far as handguns are concerned. I still prefer a carbine to the p 90 but again trade offs, the SMG will be more compact and easier to wield etc. and a bunch of other factors that have been debated to death with no clear winner in much more detailed gun forums so I will just say...
The P90 is amazing innovative. right down to the how the cartridge casings are ejected through the bottom of the handle. I Like that they were basically willing to start from scratch and design something very unique and yet functional. Not a lot of folks rewrite the book on things and this was very bold.
I do think its interesting just how many rifles are ergonomically designed to mimic either the M-16 or AK. Pretty amazing when you think of all the variants and copies that try to replicate one or the other and from so many different nations.
Ben,
I guess that reinventing the wheel isn't too high on firearms manufacturers' lists. Realistically, pistols are pretty hard to redesign without some real lateral thinking and beyond bullpups, longarms have a pretty baseline formula to follow: barrel, gas assembly, forestock, receiver group (including mag & pistol grip) and finally stock. Bits and bobs can be added but you can't really delete much so the basic concept remains the same regardless.
Weapons like the P-90 break the mould but don't find a huge amount of sales because many agencies whether military or civilian are fairly conservative in nature when it comes to issue firearms. Take the police here in Victoria, Australia. We've only just seen the issue of semi-auto pistols (mind you a poor choice of particular weapon, but I digress). For decades they used K-frame S&W revolvers in .38cal. I used the same weapon on duty as a correctional officer. Reliable, yes but 6 rounds before reloading compared to many equally reliable autopistols packing 12 or more rounds and you can see the inequity of the situation. That said, the powers that be believed that the rather dated 'six-shooter' was more than adequate for the role.
Regards,
Mav
Smith & Wesson's collabouration with Walther on P99 is another one. I remember coming across an article on it, which mentioned a few changes to conform to American shooting habits- the only one I can remember, however, is the trigger guard, the explanation being that American shooters don't press their non-trigger index finger onto the front of trigger guard.
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Quote from: Maverick on October 27, 2010, 01:37:17 AM
For decades they used K-frame S&W revolvers in .38cal. I used the same weapon on duty as a correctional officer. Reliable, yes but 6 rounds before reloading compared to many equally reliable autopistols packing 12 or more rounds and you can see the inequity of the situation. That said, the powers that be believed that the rather dated 'six-shooter' was more than adequate for the role.
A few years ago I read somewhere that Singaporean police's new issue handgun is a .38 Special revolver with a laser aiming aid.
But then again we're talking about Singapore, a country with more ways than a powerful police handgun to bring a law-breaker into a world of hurt ;D
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I know it might not be that much of an ergonomics issue (meaning I'm going a bit off-topic again :banghead:)...... but does anyone know any bolt action rifle that takes M14/M1A detachable magazines, preferably without having to make modification to the mags? Thanks in advance.
Dy,
I've read of quite a few instances where European arms manufacturers have modified their baseline weapon specifically to cater to the US market. The changes have usually been associated with safeties & triggers in the case of handguns & selector switches and barrel types in the case of longarms.
Funnily enough, I remember seeing a tricked up (S&W?) revolver specifically developed for US Spec Ops personnel with a large silencer, day optic & laser aimer. The thing was huge!
As for the mags, I've only seen M14 mags associated with weapons of that nature (eg M14, BM-59, etc). That's not to say they couldn't be modified to a bolt-action weapon, after all the SMLE has a detachable magazine.
Regards,
Mav
Quote from: dy031101 on October 27, 2010, 08:21:54 PM
Smith & Wesson's collabouration with Walther on P99 is another one. I remember coming across an article on it, which mentioned a few changes to conform to American shooting habits- the only one I can remember, however, is the trigger guard, the explanation being that American shooters don't press their non-trigger index finger onto the front of trigger guard.
In many American Gun stores one may see S&W99s for sale next to Walther P-99s. Mechanically they are the same gun, and suposedly some parts are interchangeable. I myself grew up in the Americas and have always used the "american style" side button magazine release. However the trigger guard magazine release made a lot more sense ergonomically and was safer to the shooter. I purchased a Walther P-99AS (albeit, between the S&W99 and the Walther P-99AS, I found the Walther P-99AS more aesthetically pleasing among the two). I find it very under rated here in the US.
:cheers:
Reposting a picture from another thread:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatifmodelers.com%2Findex.php%3Faction%3Ddlattach%3Btopic%3D25690.0%3Battach%3D49768&hash=e5527fdacf506609689a823d26e336ad1fa2c90e)
An attempt to develop a California-legal AR-15 lower receiver (no words on how it went after the mockup, however), but like a fellow forum participant said, it does seem to have the ergonomics of Mini-14 or a classic sport rifle. Don't know if anyone would have prefered such ergonomics over those of a stock AR-15 out of freewill though ;D.
Below is a fictional crossbow from a Japanese manga, but the grips do bear quite a bit of resemblance to the P90......
Really odd looking weapon there Dy, almost looks like something out of a post-apocalyptic movie. That being said, the recoil from the 5.56 round is neglible, so there'd be no real issue with the devolution from the 'straight line' configuration, especially given the weapon would, I assume, be firing semi-auto.
As for the magna weapon/P-90 collision, it wouldn't be the first time the movies have used 'real' weapons for sci-fi alternates. Star Wars had MG 42 & Sterlings for instance.
Regards,
Mav
Don't forget the mainstay pistol of Star Wars; the Mauser C-96 "Broom Handle"!
That crossbow up there reminds me of the grip on the FG-42. Always thought it was kinda "odd"
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy189%2Fmitchtanz%2Ffg42.jpg&hash=967872111205b8c3b9847dd0b13e9d56645ad824)
Quote from: Maverick on October 28, 2010, 05:50:32 PM
As for the magna weapon/P-90 collision, it wouldn't be the first time the movies have used 'real' weapons for sci-fi alternates.
Quote from: Cliffy B on October 28, 2010, 05:54:29 PM
That crossbow up there reminds me of the grip on the FG-42. Always thought it was kinda "odd"
Maybe incorporate the repeating mechanism of this (http://www.flapdoodledinghy.com/chu-ko-nu2.html) for added kicks ;D.
I'm getting "http://www.flapdoodledinghy.com" does not exist. :banghead:
I've been having conflicted feelings about that sporter lower for AR-15......
On one hand I cannot see how it possibly fits my idea of a good-looking gun or how people wouldn't just buy a Mini-14 or bolt-action rifles instead, but on the other hand, I couldn't help to imagine a Mk.12 or other precision-type upper, perhaps even those chambered for the more-powerful 6.5mm Grendel, being put onto it......
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Quote from: Cliffy B on October 28, 2010, 06:54:25 PM
I'm getting "http://www.flapdoodledinghy.com" does not exist. :banghead:
Attached here.
Of course, the "relatively quiet" aspect of the crossbow is probably the only advantage it has over unsuppressed firearms.
The Franken AR is nice enough, but if you upped the calibre, the whole issue of straightline stock vs traditional rifle would come into play again. You'd be trading accuracy purely for asthetics. Whilst I realise there are plenty of good, accurate weapons out there with traditional stocks, the recoil impulse is substantially easier to handle with a straightline stock.
Pistol type crossbows are very underpowered as a general rule. Any potential advantage over a firearm would be, IMO, negligble. Give me a suppressed Mk 23 or even a suppressed 9mm. Suppressor or silencers whether they be screw on or QD are a much better option compared to a crossbow. I think these are really Hollywood things.
Regards,
Mav
Well the point is just a repeating crossbow (I posted the picture of a pistol type because it is the first example I found of repeating crossbows :banghead:), the sci-fi picture posted earlier suggesting at least SMG or carbine length.
But I agree, within equivalent handling quality (pistol-type to pistol type, longarm-type to longarm-type) a firearm would be superior to a crossbow.
Just in case:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.franzz.eu%2Fshop%2Fbmz_cache%2F2%2F2e7451d24f25aee7a79b82638225e286.image.750x499.jpg&hash=a96038b85d38567372d675c6f8544bf65d5eec76)
Check this (http://www.defensereview.com/defrev-exclusive-magpul-pdr-personal-defense-rifle-556-pdw-photos/) out!
P90-like ergonomics...... and looks like it chambers the 5.56mm NATO......
These devices are all ultra-modern from my point of view! ;D
But from personal experience the ergonomics of a weapon make a huge difference to the accuracy in use, so long as those ergonomics suit the particular user. Back in the '50s I used to shoot with the Combined Cadet Force at school and was a member of our shooting VIII at Bisley and elsewhere for a few years. For indoor and shorter range use we used the ubiquitous Lee-Enfield No. 8, a .22 RF version of a .303 No. 4, the bolt action service rifle that was in the process of being phased out in favour of the FN.
Being really keen on shooting I persuaded my Dad to fork out for a 'proper' target rifle and he bought me a 10 year old BSA International Mk 1, a single shot Martini action weapon. It was a disaster! I was so used to a bolt action that the workings of the falling block Martini ruined my scores, dropping from an average of around 85 to 75 or worse! So during my last year at school I sold the BSA (or rather Dad did... ;)) and we tried out a few other types. My fave was an Anschutz Heavy Match, but it was way outside our budget and I settled for a Walther Matchmaster, also a bolt action but with forward locking lugs, unlike the rear lugs of the No 8.
My scores almost immediately rose into the low 90s (sometimes......) and I was well pleased. After I left school I kept the Walther and shot for my firm's team in the County Leagues, and I was in the middle range of shooters there. After a few tests of a mate's BSA International Mk III, which had a thumb-hole stock, I carved myself a thumb-hole stock for the Walther and that improved my scores even more. I reckon the almost straight trigger pull with the thumb-hole stock made the release much more predictable, and I used it until I had to sell the weapon in '69. For some reason the Police in Derbyshire, where I was moving to, reckoned that the stock made it too lethal!
That Magpul PDW looks nasty (and not necessarily in a positive way). Given the size & weight of the weapon, I really wonder about any sort of controllability in anything resembling full auto or burst. Specs read as a weight of 4lbs and given that and the barrel length of 10 - 12 inches I'd have to say it'd be rather unpleasant to fire in the extreme.
Regarding target type weapons, I remember using a target rifle at my cadet unit back in the 70s. It was a single shot bolt action .22 with a pinhole target sight. Having previously used the L1A1 (FN FAL) on a routine basis with the cadets, the sighting system was horrendous in comparision to what I was used to.
In that same instance, our instructor brought along his Sterling "AR" type weapon (M16 lookalike) and it was seriously flawed with double feeds in every couple of cycles being the order of the day.
Regards,
Mav
Quote from: Maverick on November 15, 2010, 06:45:05 PM
Regarding target type weapons, I remember using a target rifle at my cadet unit back in the 70s. It was a single shot bolt action .22 with a pinhole target sight. Having previously used the L1A1 (FN FAL) on a routine basis with the cadets, the sighting system was horrendous in comparision to what I was used to.
Mav,
That describes a No. 8 exactly. The standard pinhole sights were way under the class of the rest of the weapon, but with a good set of Parker-Hales mounted it could shoot 1" groups at 50 yards on a good day, and with someone who knew what they were doing behind the trigger of course. ;D
How very true it can be Kit. I remember when I was in the RAAF, my SLR was that old it was a joke to be honest. The front sight was loose and the armourers only believed there was something wrong when the thing was sideways across the sight block! Fast forward to a new unit and new SLR & I was routinely dropping targets at 400+ yards.
Those old target rifles we used were sad tho, especially when I was used to firing the SLR in the cadets too!
Regards,
Mav
Remington has a version of their Model 597 .22LR sporting rifle extensively modified with ergonomics of the AR (compare to the baseline model in the bottom picture).
Which makes me wonder...... has anyone thought of basing such a modification on a bolt action? :drink:
My average was 98 and that was using the Martini or as Vickers. ;) ;D
Quote from: PR19_Kit on November 16, 2010, 03:21:22 AM
Quote from: Maverick on November 15, 2010, 06:45:05 PM
Regarding target type weapons, I remember using a target rifle at my cadet unit back in the 70s. It was a single shot bolt action .22 with a pinhole target sight. Having previously used the L1A1 (FN FAL) on a routine basis with the cadets, the sighting system was horrendous in comparision to what I was used to.
Mav,
That describes a No. 8 exactly. The standard pinhole sights were way under the class of the rest of the weapon, but with a good set of Parker-Hales mounted it could shoot 1" groups at 50 yards on a good day, and with someone who knew what they were doing behind the trigger of course. ;D
The main thing wrong with the backsight on the No8 was the aperture was to large.
Dy,
Whilst not exactly a conversion you mentioned, the DeLisle carbine (a bolt action, .45cal silenced rifle) came in both full stocked and folding stock/pistol grip variations. I've also seen tricked up sniper conversions with AR like qualities. Beyond that, in a more modern sense, I don't see anyone proposing a bolt-action AR conversion mainly because convention dictates that an AR configured weapon is by its nature semi or full auto. That's not to say it couldn't be done.
Regards,
Mav
automat korobov - standard infantry rifle : heavily modified for ergonomics, AK-107 style balancer(arranged horizontally), shells are ejected downwards(adjacent to the cheek rest), internal parts can be modified to accommodate high caliber ammo for anti-material role
note: this is also my first ever vector drawing other than logos :mellow:
SKL,
Nifty drawing there, very workmanlike indeed.
Two problems I would consider however. If the 'balancer' is a muzzle compensator, you'd have that force exerted on the horizontal plane, not the vertical so the weapon would still 'rise' when firing, particularly in burst or auto fire modes. Secondly, a heavier calibre for the anti-materiel role would make the weapon rather uncomfortable to operate due to recoil, muzzle blast and other issues. Barret's .50cal bullpup (M95?) has a fairly long barrel even though it is a bullpup design.
Please don't take offence to these observations, they are, after all, only my opinion on the matter.
Regards,
Mav
The AK-107 "balancer" consists of a rod, rather like the gas piston which goes forward, out of the weapon's front to literally balance the rearward movement of the gas piston and bolt carrier. Apparently improves accuracy considerably and counter-balances that rearward movement, resulting in a decreased muzzle climb. When combined with a muzzle compensator in the style of the AK-74, it markedly reduces muzzle climb. Its just one of the many gimmicks weapons designers in the fUSSR came up with to improve accuracy during burst/fully automatic fire.
My main concern with SKL's design is that there is no real trigger guard. Always been one of my major concerns with the Steyr AUG and the SAR-21. While I recognise the idea is to make the weapon more easily useable with NBC gloves, I'm still worried about the safety aspect. The other concern I have with it is the extreme rearward placement of the magazine. While again, I recognise Korobov's ingenuity to put it there, its too far rearward and too close to the firer's body to be easily manipulated. The downward ejection might also represent a problem with hot brass down the firer's shirt front (don't laugh, I used to get hot brass from the L1a1 SLR occasionally dropping down my shirt front. It bloody hurts! :lol: )
Quote from: Maverick on December 05, 2010, 10:33:54 PM
SKL,
Nifty drawing there, very workmanlike indeed.
Two problems I would consider however. If the 'balancer' is a muzzle compensator, you'd have that force exerted on the horizontal plane, not the vertical so the weapon would still 'rise' when firing, particularly in burst or auto fire modes. Secondly, a heavier calibre for the anti-materiel role would make the weapon rather uncomfortable to operate due to recoil, muzzle blast and other issues. Barret's .50cal bullpup (M95?) has a fairly long barrel even though it is a bullpup design.
Please don't take offence to these observations, they are, after all, only my opinion on the matter.
Regards,
Mav
well, it's not the balancer per se that's arranged horizontally but the mechanism since I figured if the mechanism was arranged vertically the internal parts won't work for something that's meant to eject the shells downward. the balancing rod is still above the muzzle though... just the cranks being and gears arranged horizontally <.<
as for the high caliber rounds, cyborg spetsnaz was on my mind ;D
Thanks for the info on the AK-107's internals. I certainly wasn't aware of that system. I'd still think that if it were a high-powered weapon, the muzzle blast would be excessive, however, regardless of internal mechanisms that controlled rise and recoil.
I also think Brian has a point regarding the trigger guard. Whilst the AUG & SAR-21 have full, if large, triggerguards, the design would be a shade unsafe as anything could depress the trigger if it slipped up there.
Mind you, anti-materiel rounds for cyborg spetznaz sound just the ticket! :thumbsup: Heck, you could give them 20mm cannons and they'd hang on without a prob if Hollywood is to believed.
Regards,
Mav
I heard that an American company has come up with a version of their re-engineered AUG (http://www.msarinc.com/stg-556-E4.html) that has a variety of calibres including 7.62mm x 39......
Sounds neat...... I wonder if there exists a company or gunsmith that does custom barrels for anyone inspired by the Tabuk DMR and wanting to make a counterpart for the bullpup......
Quote from: dy031101 on February 05, 2011, 11:43:45 PM
I heard that an American company has come up with a version of their re-engineered AUG (http://www.msarinc.com/stg-556-E4.html) that has a variety of calibres including 7.62mm x 39......
Only problem is that is simply an M16 action dressed up in a Steyr style stock with all the associated problems with the Llungmann gas system. It even has the bolt assist still, which should not be necessary if the return spring is strong enough to force the bolt carrier forward and definitely not needed if there isn't the usual level of carbon residue that one associates with the M16 action. I'd be interested to see the contortions required to use it actually.
Quote
Sounds neat...... I wonder if there exists a company or gunsmith that does custom barrels for anyone inspired by the Tabuk DMR and wanting to make a counterpart for the bullpup......
The Tribal Area of NW Pakistan. They can do anything you want there for you - for a price.
Donny,
I'm not surprised that the US have calibre conversions for the AUG. There's pretty much the same for any firearm over there. As for DMR type AUGs, Steyr produced a long barrelled HBAR version complete with optics rail & scope when they were first introduced that was marketed (and serves in some armies) as an LMG. They also produce a similar weapon, the HBAR-T as a DMR weapon for the Austrian military.
It does, however, seem like reinventing the wheel if the weapon isn't a simple conversion of the AUG & rather an M16 action in a Steyr stock as Brian alluded to, but then again, that happens a bit too.
Regards,
Mav
Quote from: rickshaw on February 06, 2011, 01:34:47 AM
Only problem is that is simply an M16 action dressed up in a Steyr style stock with all the associated problems with the Llungmann gas system. It even has the bolt assist still, which should not be necessary if the return spring is strong enough to force the bolt carrier forward and definitely not needed if there isn't the usual level of carbon residue that one associates with the M16 action.
Well incorporating demestic features into a foreign-based gun is a different way of doing Ergonomics Adaptations from what I mentioned- I wonder how it compares with other guns like that (such as Khaybar KH2002 from Iran)?
Quote from: rickshaw on February 06, 2011, 01:34:47 AM
The Tribal Area of NW Pakistan. They can do anything you want there for you - for a price.
The Tribal Area might be less than accessible to foreign gun enthusiasts- someone in North America maybe?
Quote from: Maverick on February 06, 2011, 01:52:52 AM
I'm not surprised that the US have calibre conversions for the AUG. There's pretty much the same for any firearm over there. As for DMR type AUGs, Steyr produced a long barrelled HBAR version complete with optics rail & scope when they were first introduced that was marketed (and serves in some armies) as an LMG. They also produce a similar weapon, the HBAR-T as a DMR weapon for the Austrian military.
I'd think that someone would be interested in a "
M16 action in AUG
shell and chambered for 7.62mm x 39 cartridge" built to match the Austrian HBAR-T configuration. There have been quite a number of companies that sell DMR-type M16s and FAL-clones......
EDIT: Thanks, Henry Yeh, for the reminder.
I like the idea of a M1943 based DMR weapon, rather than a 5.56mm one. The round doesn't have enough in it to effectively engage a longer ranges IMO, whilst the Soviet round can reach out without having too harsh a recoil impulse such as a 7.62mm NATO round. Unfortunately, though, there's the issue of supply logistics and the marksman having different ammo to his squadmates, which negates the advantages.
Regards,
Mav
I'd think it to be more attractive as a civilian sports firearm.
Military users are more likely to stick with AK/Type-56/Type-81 (even getting Iraq to manufacture Tabuk again?) if they use 7.62mm x 39 cartridges at all.
Donny,
I have to agree there, although if the concept of a DMR weapon (as with the Tabuk DMR) was taken up by those using the AK (in cases where they had US training), it would have relevance. Russian training on the other hand, tends towards simpler tactical approaches.
Beyond that, the civilian market would be the most obvious choice as a midway choice between the 5.56 round and a heavier 7.62 NATO round or something similar.
Regards,
Mav
Speaking of a bullpup in 7.62mm x 39 calibre......
NORINCO came up with a bullpup version of their Type 56 called Type 86S (upper pic) in the past...... operation remains the same as the Type 56, but some ergonomic inspirations (carrying handle and sight placement) were said to have been taken from the French FAMAS. Individual observations might vary.
Ever since the allegedly-airsoft QBZ-97G picture (middle pic) was brought to my attention, I couldn't help to wonder if transplanting the add-on grenade launcher or incorporating the trigger guard design and prototype grenade launcher of the original QBZ-95 (bottom pic) would help improve the asthetics of the Type 86S...... :drink:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi846.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fab22%2Fdy031101%2Far-esqueBoltie.jpg&hash=6b22e4a748838c3129d2b0e85979e12a986a23da)
This aftermarket stock looks kinda similar to the rough form factor of an AR, don't you think?
It appears that someone did build a bolt-action mod. on an AR though. (http://tgfblog.wordpress.com/2009/02/01/bolt-action-ar/)