Now that my STOVL Canberra is all but done, just glueing the bits altogether and paint, my mind is wandering to other things. I'm thinking of what I will do next and I have two 1/48 Harrier kits which I've used parts from, one I had and another Barry (JHM) had given me. My first plan was to make a twin Harrier out of them (totally influenced by Radish's project BTW) but 1/48 isn't really the scale I like building in, so that little project will be saved for a pair of 1/72 Harriers (something along the lines of a Prowler/Growler VSTOL).
My thoughts have turned to doing something with the two 1/48 Harriers though, but cross scaling then to 1/72. I'm thinking that 'what-if' the only practical application of a multi-engined STOVL/STOL was in a twin engined layout, what sort of options do you have and what could be used. I got to thinking about this while doing the STOVL Canberra, someone mentioned not to forget the wing puffers but to my thinking they wouldn't be very effective (if at all), I'm looking at what they would have to overcome. In the side view, the jet thrust stream is very much like a Harrier where you have what looks like 'one' jet stream (but really one behind the other) and the puffers for the pitch can tilt the jet stream back and forth to correct the pitch, but in the front view you have a totally different scenario. It has two jet thrust streams set 18 feet apart and the wing tip puffers would have to be extraordinarily powerful to overcome the two jet streams. I think the answer for roll in the hover would be best accomplished by differential engine control.
I remember watching John Farley in a documentary about the Harrier development, on how they solved a problem about controlling the rate of decent while in the hover, they had found that the normal back and forth movement of the pilot's arm as he moved the throttle was too abrupt, so a little knurled wheel was incorporated into the top of the throttle lever, this calibrated the movement much more precisely, rolling it forward increased power and rolling it backwards, decreasing it. My thinking is that something like this would have been needed to control the two engines only moving side to side but the two operations had to work in one control. My solution to that was quite simple though, and most people on computers would have had it right under their mouse hand (might still do for that matter), the answer is the little ball found in the mouse. It controls two axial shafts for the X & Y co-ordinates of the computer, same would happen on the throttle for the two engines, side to side for the engines, back and forth for the power and anywhere in-between for all of it.
So what's this to do with my new project you might ask, well if only two engines were the only practical layout, what happens if you want to have a bigger STOVL/STOL, like an AW681. The only option would be to have bigger engines --- so 'what-if' the Pegasus was scaled up into a much bigger engine, what could you use it on. Once again my thinking is you would need a 'proof-of-concept' project, using an existing airframe which leads to what would I use. There's a number of options open here, I could go something conservative like using a C-130 or a Transall, or something a bit more ambitious, say like a Nimrod -----
Robert,
Interesting and formative thinking there. ;D
I know what you mean about the mouse ball, and I've always taken it further as I've used a trackball since my first ever PC, I find it a lot more intutive than physically moving the mouse from side to side, I just roll the ball around with my fingertips.
I even use a utility called 'Mouse-as-Yoke' to use my trackball as a joystick to 'fly' with Flight Simulator 2004 and it works a treat. I'm sure such a device could work well on a full size aircraft.
As for a type to use your idea on, I fancy the Transall C-160, if only because it's already a twin anyway, but also because it has an ENORMOUS fin that I'm sure will be needed to counteract the size of the two lift jets you plan to use. Having seen the only BS100 engine left, in the FAA Museum at Yeovilton, I should think your engines would be BS200s at least, maybe BS300s! :lol:
Having proved the concept the 'production version' could be a 1/144 scale C-17 with four 1/72 Harriers under the wings....... -_-
I'm looking forward to seeing how you develop this idea.
What about an Osprey? Replace those two large props.
Thanks guys, Kit - the fin is something I'm keeping in mind, it would have to be quite substantial wouldn't it ? Philp - I was thinking something a bit bigger, the Osprey is closer to the Canberra project although I quite like the idea.
If I used a C-130 or Transall, what swept wing could I use on it ? :wacko:
Quote from: kitnut617 on January 11, 2010, 11:04:42 AM
Thanks guys, Kit - the fin is something I'm keeping in mind, it would have to be quite substantial wouldn't it ? Philp - I was thinking something a bit bigger, the Osprey is closer to the Canberra project although I quite like the idea.
If I used a C-130 or Transall, what swept wing could I use on it ? :wacko:
Nimrod wing?
You want it SWEPT? :o
That takes some thinking about in 1/72. The only thing that comes to mind is a section from a 707, KC-135 or E-3 wing of some sort. Even large 1/144 airliner wings wouldn't really be big enough, except maybe for the A380. A B-52 is a tad narrow in chord, but maybe, just maybe, an XB-35 or -49 would do?
Wouldn't you have to mount it further forward to get the centre of lift in the right place? Remember that the nozzles have to be equally spaced fore and aft of the loaded CG to get the VSTOL to work properly. That's why the HS-681 always looked so snub nosed I reckon.
The loadmasters on your device will DEFINITELY have their work cut out! :lol:
A question to anyone who might know the answer, is there a list of High Bypass engines and their diameters. The 1/48 Pegasus fan measures out to the equivalent to 67" in diameter in 1/72, is there an existing engine that is close to that ?
Quote from: B787 on January 11, 2010, 11:29:05 AM
Nimrod wing?
I'm thinking of a STOVL Nimrod tanker, the 1/48 Harrier fuselages happen to fit the 1/72 Nimrod wing much like the 1/72 Harrier fuselages fitted the 1/72 Canberra.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 11, 2010, 11:29:33 AM
You want it SWEPT? :o
That takes some thinking about in 1/72. The only thing that comes to mind is a section from a 707, KC-135 or E-3 wing of some sort. Even large 1/144 airliner wings wouldn't really be big enough, except maybe for the A380. A B-52 is a tad narrow in chord, but maybe, just maybe, an XB-35 or -49 would do?
Wouldn't you have to mount it further forward to get the centre of lift in the right place? Remember that the nozzles have to be equally spaced fore and aft of the loaded CG to get the VSTOL to work properly. That's why the HS-681 always looked so snub nosed I reckon.
The loadmasters on your device will DEFINITELY have their work cut out! :lol:
I'd not thought the wing would need to be as big as an C-135's Kit but you may be right, I've thought about 737 wings or Airbus 310, even C-141 wings. You're right though, the wing root would have to be moved forward some.
Quote from: kitnut617 on January 11, 2010, 11:38:23 AM
I'd not thought the wing would need to be as big as an C-135's Kit but you may be right, I've thought about 737 wings or Airbus 310, even C-141 wings. You're right though, the wing root would have to be moved forward some.
I didn't mean all of it actually. By cuttng a suitable section out you could fit the chord to suit your engines and wing root dimesnion, I'd hope so anyway.
The only 1/72 scale 737 I know is the DIABOLICAL ex-Aurora -100, modelled on the prototype, and as rare as hen's teeth these days. Does anyone do a 1/72 A310 or C-141 currently at a sensible price? Transport Wings did do a vacform A310 I think, and of course Nova did the C-141 (I have one in The Loft) but they are a) expensive and b) rare.
GE turbo-fan comparisons:
Commercial
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/comparison_turbofan.html
Military
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/comparison_turbofan.html
P&W unfortunately isn't as convenient, you'll have to go through each type:
http://www.pw.utc.com/Products/Commercial
The PW2000 seems to be closest at 78.5" diameter.
Rolls-Royce(Same deal as Pratt):
http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil/products/largeaircraft/index.jsp
RB211-535 diameter is 74.1".
An RB-211 based lift 'Pegasus-type' engine is not outside the realm of possibility.
The thing to bear in mind about high-bypass ratio turbo-fans is that you can have very different sized fans
mounted to the same basic core.
Jon
How about an A-400 or C-160 style airlifter, just 20-30 years before, made in the UK/Canada. Transport fuselage of some kind, possibly a C-130 or C-160, possibly with the nose of a 707/KC-135 to make it more jetty. Perhaps even use a russian transporter, such as the An-12, or if you are thinking smaller, An-24/32. Swept T-tail like the C-17 or A-400M. Propulsion would be the two harrier fuselages fitted as pods under wings, or perhaps embedded into the wing roots. Swept and droopy wings. They could be sourced from following 1/72 kits (all rather easy to come by on the internet):
Heller 707/C-135/KC-135/E-3 (would give you a nose too)
Italeri Tu-22 Blinder (very swept)
Italeri Tu-22M Backfire (For the swing-wing version?)
Italeri XB-35 flying wing (lots of wing to work with in that one)
Italeri B-52
Trumpeter Tu-95
Trumpeter Tu-160 (Swing wing)
And of course the Nimrod.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 11, 2010, 12:02:08 PM
I didn't mean all of it actually. By cuttng a suitable section out you could fit the chord to suit your engines and wing root dimesnion, I'd hope so anyway.
The only 1/72 scale 737 I know is the DIABOLICAL ex-Aurora -100, modelled on the prototype, and as rare as hen's teeth these days. Does anyone do a 1/72 A310 or C-141 currently at a sensible price? Transport Wings did do a vacform A310 I think, and of course Nova did the C-141 (I have one in The Loft) but they are a) expensive and b) rare.
Right, not thinking there Kit (getting too deep into this :lol: ) Aurora (Monogram) -100, got one and it is of the prototype but close to a -100, NASA use one and I've got some decals for it. I have a Welsh Models 1/72 737-200 (they do a number of 737 versions in 1/72) and I've got a vac 737-100 too, a Combat Models kit. I've got a Transport Wings (AiM) A310 too, actually it's a CC-150 Polaris, Combat Models does a vac C-141A/B, got one of those, I've also got about five or six C-135's in various variants, one will be a Boeing C-141 (amazingly, when I overlaid the Lockheed C-141A fuselage over a C-135 one, I couldn't believe just how close the two fuselages are). So I've got lots to choose from right :lol:
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on January 11, 2010, 12:06:10 PM
GE turbo-fan comparisons:
Commercial
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/comparison_turbofan.html
Military
http://www.geae.com/engines/commercial/comparison_turbofan.html
P&W unfortunately isn't as convenient, you'll have to go through each type:
http://www.pw.utc.com/Products/Commercial
The PW2000 seems to be closest at 78.5" diameter.
Rolls-Royce(Same deal as Pratt):
http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil/products/largeaircraft/index.jsp
RB211-535 diameter is 74.1".
An RB-211 based lift 'Pegasus-type' engine is not outside the realm of possibility.
The thing to bear in mind about high-bypass ratio turbo-fans is that you can have very different sized fans
mounted to the same basic core.
Jon
Thanks for that Jon, that will solve a lot of explaining won't it :lol:
Quote from: B787 on January 11, 2010, 01:04:16 PM
How about an A-400 or C-160 style airlifter, just 20-30 years before, made in the UK/Canada. Transport fuselage of some kind, possibly a C-130 or C-160, possibly with the nose of a 707/KC-135 to make it more jetty. Perhaps even use a russian transporter, such as the An-12, or if you are thinking smaller, An-24/32. Swept T-tail like the C-17 or A-400M. Propulsion would be the two harrier fuselages fitted as pods under wings, or perhaps embedded into the wing roots. Swept and droopy wings. They could be sourced from following 1/72 kits (all rather easy to come by on the internet):
Heller 707/C-135/KC-135/E-3 (would give you a nose too)
Italeri Tu-22 Blinder (very swept)
Italeri Tu-22M Backfire (For the swing-wing version?)
Italeri XB-35 flying wing (lots of wing to work with in that one)
Italeri B-52
Trumpeter Tu-95
Trumpeter Tu-160 (Swing wing)
And of course the Nimrod.
Some interesting selections there Thomas, my first thoughts on this was, OK, we have the Harrier, we now have a STOVL bomber/ecm/tanker (thanks to chrisonord)but to complete the mix I was thinking we need a 'tanker' size STOVL tanker, maybe just a STOL though. The idea of using a C-130 or Transall was to prove the big engines would work in this configuration.
For a tanker, perhaps a Canberra XL? Use a large center fuselage, fitted with the Canberra nose and tail. Extend the wings, and fit the Harriers inside the wings like you VTOL Canberra?
Sorta like this:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe123%2FB777LR%2FCanberraX.jpg&hash=ffdba01cc2c8a37709949c892ac22f51304954a2)
Bigger Thomas, much bigger. I'm thinking of a Nimrod size STOVL/STOL, VC-10 size Victor size ----- :wacko: not a Canberra shape at all but something that exists RW to be converted in my AW
Quote from: kitnut617 on January 12, 2010, 07:27:29 AM
Bigger Thomas, much bigger. I'm thinking of a Nimrod size STOVL/STOL, VC-10 size Victor size ----- :wacko: not a Canberra shape at all but something that exists RW to be converted in my AW
Mi-26 fuselage with wings of some sort?
Canadair CL-215/415?
Noratlas?
C-119?
Robert, how about a 1/48 Dakota wing? I sounds daft at first, but it actually works quite well as a swept wing. It should work well if you make a cut to increase the angle of sweep.
Here it is split into two parts at different angles, 1/72 wing on a 1/48 subject. Only thing is it might be a bit thick for your project, but you could always sand the two halves downn?
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FSecret%2520Santa%25202006%2520Group%2520Build%2FSecretSanta20.jpg&hash=6245bc1675761272ad2f1b24c3a1d19608a9d75f)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FSecret%2520Santa%25202006%2520Group%2520Build%2FSecretSanta21.jpg&hash=c0b3ff067f77daecf54557754d0a05a5772a83bf)
I like that Mossie,
Where have you been hiding that little gem :wub:
Chris.
Lots of food for thought here guys, thanks.
Simon, yes, where have you been hiding that neat looking creation -----
It's been going three years nearly, from the last Secret Santa GB. I dropped the canopy, stepped back where it couldn't possibly have fallen.... :banghead: I've not been sure what to do with it since then.
Original build thread:
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,14352.0/highlight,indiana+jones.html (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,14352.0/highlight,indiana+jones.html)
Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 11, 2010, 11:29:33 AM
You want it SWEPT? :o
I've done a bit of investigating, an Airbus A318/320 wing has about the same MTW capability as the Transall wing, and I can get an A320 in 1/72 from Welsh Models, I've got a Transall already. I've decided to go this way with the two 1/48 Harrier fuselages instead of doing the Nimrod. I've also got a spare KC-10 conversion too.
I want to see what you're going to do with all the bits left over AFTER you've done this one! :lol:
So you want to mount the A318 wing to the top of the Transall? Sweet...
Quote from: PR19_Kit on January 21, 2010, 04:18:11 PM
I want to see what you're going to do with all the bits left over AFTER you've done this one! :lol:
Hadn't given it a thought Kit ---- yet ;D
Mind you, chatting with Denzel at Welsh Models when I was after some bits & pieces, I found he will not break up any of his kits just for certain parts, but he did say that if I bought all the resin parts from a kit, or all the vac parts etc, he would sell them to me but what he doesn't want is a pile of parts that can't be used just lying around his shop.
Quote from: B787 on January 22, 2010, 05:32:21 AM
So you want to mount the A318 wing to the top of the Transall? Sweet...
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Make sure the wings droop a little though :thumbsup:
A Gloster V/STOL transport project that may be of interest.
Two Pegasus and ten lift engines.
Cheers, Jon
Yoikes Jon, another great find. I'm trying to come up with something that doesn't have all the extra lift engines, I just don't see the point of hauling around all that dead weight for 98% of the mission. Which is why I'm liking the idea of the vectored thrust RB-211 idea you banded earlier. Mind you, if the sound of the Rotodyne killed that project, I can't imagine what might have been said if one of these tried landing down-town. :lol:
I've been thinking about another project, I've always wanted to build an Avro Atlantic and finally have all the bits gathered together to start one. I'm actually planning on building two, one as it was proposed but with Vulcan B.1 wings, but the other as a wide body variant. I'm going along the same lines as what Avro did with their Tudor, after the first small diameter fuselage version was put into use, the operators wanted a bigger one.
The info I've managed to gather and contacts I've made with people who were in the drafting office when it was being studied, have suggested that there might have been a Boeing connection, because I saw that various diagrams of the Atlantic had a distinquitive Boeing look to the nose (top two pics). I had asked if there might have been a possibility that Avro would have used the 707 fuselage and the answer I got was "there had been discussions".
So my idea is to have a wide body fuselage and use the B.2 wing and much more powerful engines and keeping with the Boeing theme, I've decided to use a 767 fuselage. Mainly because there's a good chance I can get one in 1/72 scale in the near future, but also because it's diameter is closer to what I want to use. Ideally it would have been around 15 feet in diameter (as a competitor to the Handley Page HP.111) but as the 767 fuselage diameter is 16'-6" I think it would be close enough.
Now the engine scenario I've been giving a lot of thought to. It's pretty obvious from studying a cutaway drawing of a Vulcan (3rd pic) that the 20,000 lb thrust Olympus was probably the max that could be installed in a Vulcan as it was, the engines performance being dictated by the intake ducting size with this being dictated by the main spar depth. Anything that required more air would have meant a major center wing re-design I think. But I don't think it wasn't considered, I saw in BSP-Bombers since 1949 a picture of a Phase 6 Victor, which had massive air intakes so the idea wasn't dismissed.
Studying the cutaway, I can see that the engines were set quite a bit further back to the front main spar but the boxes that the engines sit in would prevent an engine getting any bigger diameter wise, it would seem though the length of the engine could be longer. The main spar is also the front end of the bombay (the rear spar being the back end) and after seeing this cutaway, my idea for a bigger engine for the Atlantic started to fall into place. I'm going to give it high-bypass engines and I'm thinking of modified Pegasus 11 Mk 106 or 107 engines. Instead of having the cold air coming out of swivelling nozzles, I'll have the plenum revised to have the air coming out of ducts on top and below the engine, something very similar to how the RB-57F has it's TF-33's configured.
This will need a new center wing section and as this is for the Atlantic and not the Vulcan, a much deeper main spar can be used and wider engine housing boxes too. Another thing is I could even use a second main spar right at the fronts of the engine fans because there's no bomb bay to consider, the space between the two spars where it goes under the passenger deck, being one large fuel tank.
I will go with three 4-wheel bogies, two in the normal place and one on the centerline.
Robert, it'd be less spectacular, but how about a non-reheated version of the Olympus 593? It produced 30,00lb dry so that would give you some oomph.
Following your thought lines, you could use the RB.431 straight-through Pegasus variant of Pegasus? That & the Medway, I vaguely recall there was a straight through version of this engine too?
I'll have a look at those Simon, but my thoughts are to have the bypass air going over and under the wing in the center section, I was thinking that the exit of the air ducts could be made to work like the CFM engine reversers, where the rear half of the duct moves back and toggles some deflectors so the bypass air turns to brake the aircraft on landing. Something like that anyway.
So I'm guessing your intending it as some kind of boundary layer control, blowing air over the wing to improve lift? Kind of like the YC-14 & An-72, just intergrated into the wing?
I wasn't thinking of boundary layer blowing but it could couldn't it ? If you look at the pic of the RB-57F below you can see that the bypass air was ducted down a channel above the engine nacelle, it also has a channel on the underside too so I don't think this has any boundary layer control to it. If you notice, the bypass air is prevented from going across the wing by being blocked off up the sides of the nacelles
If a system like that was put in a Vulcan wing the front of the engine is at about half chord, the bypass outlet edge would be about 2/3 to 3/4 back from the leading edge, so wouldn't have a lot of boundary layer control anyway, I'm thinking
Robert, I've had a look at the Atlantic entry in the Aerofax guide for the Vulcan. There are some GA drawings of a later Atlantic design than the one you've got above. The nose & fuselage is a little different with a bit less of the Boeing look about it, but the main point of interest is the intake & accomodation for the eingines. They've been re-positioned approximately half span, there are fairings to take the engines due the redcued wing thickness in this area. I assume this was for noise reduction to the cabin & possibly to improve saftey in the event of an engine explosion or fire.
The bypass ducts sound good, they'll add a bit of interest. I think your right, with the bypass air exiting in the position your mentioning they probably wouldn't add that much to the wing, but they could blow the flaps for extra take off performance?
Simon, if it's this diagram below, the information I was given was that this is an earlier design using a Comet nose
Robert,
Looks loads better with that nose! How about combining the two?
Well, I've already acquired a 1/72 737 fuselage front for the 12'-6" diameter Atlantic Kit, for the wide body one I've got a line on a 767 fuselage (in 1/72 scale). I could go with an Airbus nose which is similar to a Boeing but then the fuselage diameter gets too big, the Airbus A310 being the only one I could try to get in 1/72 scale. I think the diameter is 19 feet or something like that. I was planning on modifying the noses by making them a bit more pointy though, and change the windshield outline a tad.
Thats the one Robert. In the Aerofax guide it states the first pic you've got above as being from June 1953, the one in your recent post dating from September 1953. Phil & Tony Butler are the authors, I know you're in contact with Tony so it might be worth calarifying it with him?
From the main body text:
[qoute]The Atlantic had four engines, Olympus, Rolls Royce Conway or any other engine of equivalent thrust, placed some way out along the wing (when the intitial data was released in June 1953these sat alongside the fuselage).[/quote]
Accompanying the same pic as the first one from your first post:
QuoteThis impression of the Type 722 Atlantic was first released to the public in June 1953 and shows theengines next to the fuselage as per the Vulcan
Accompanying the GA diagram from your recent post:
QuoteBy the time a new Atlantic brochure was competed in September 1953, in time for the Farnborough Show, the engines had been moved further away from the fuselage. This allowed the leading edge wing roots to be blended in to the fuselage.
There's a third pic with seating arrangements, showing the same nose as the one in your most recent GA diagram:
QuoteThe seating arrangements for the September 1953 Atlantic with & without a bar. Note again rearward facing seats.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on October 22, 2010, 08:55:34 AM
Robert,
Looks loads better with that nose! How about combining the two?
I've always quite liked the Comet nose. I think its a lot better looking than the Boeing nose.
Quote from: rickshaw on October 23, 2010, 02:03:25 AM
I've always quite liked the Comet nose. I think its a lot better looking than the Boeing nose.
Absolutely! ;D
I'm not too keen on the layout which has the engines at mid span but I have to a agree, the Comet style nose does appear a lot more streamlined. (side note- the Caravelle got the Comet nose too). I think I'll stick with what I have gathered for the model though, I've asked Denzel at Welsh Models a couple of times if I could buy certain parts from his kits or rejects that didn't quite make the grade but he said he doesn't want to break-up the sets, apparently all the forming and casting is done elsewhere so no spares or rejects are around. I've got one of his Comet Mk.1 kits to do (RCAF of course :lol: ) so I'll have a look at it and see what I can do with it but it's not one I'd want to cannibalize. Besides it would be a hell of a job to try and make the Comet style nose for the wide-body.
Quote from: Mossie on October 22, 2010, 03:43:39 PM
Thats the one Robert. In the Aerofax guide it states the first pic you've got above as being from June 1953, the one in your recent post dating from September 1953. Phil & Tony Butler are the authors, I know you're in contact with Tony so it might be worth calarifying it with him?
I'll send Tony an email and see if I can get this clarified Simon, I'm sure the fellow I contacted who used to work in the Avro drafting office at the time told me it was the other way around. I'll send this fellow an email too, but it was quite some time ago that I had chatted with him so I'll have to see if his email addy is still current.
Incidently, the Avro Atlantic was featured in a Neville Shute book ----
I've found the email that my Avro contact had sent me, the fellows name is Mike Meahan and he told me he was fortunate to be given the job of drawing some of the diagrams in the Brochure.
Re-reading the email he does say that the mid-engined proposal was a 'very early design', here's the email I was sent that had the image of the mid-wing engined Atlantic attached but it is possible that Phil & Tony got the two mixed up :-\
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Robert.
Thanks for your reply and observations. You've really had me digging now and coming up with some interesting stuff.
This very early Atlantic proposal from the Avro project office shows some of the variants that were considered. This is more like a Concorde wing of course and note the engines almost mid span. Although this was superseded by the final brochure I sent you earlier perhaps it answers your question of the nose landing gear location. It is indeed further forward and is retracting forwards instead of aft as on the Vulcan. The MLG bogies are only shown here with 4 tyres each. I somehow doubt that would have happened for Vulcan commonality and to not get the tyre diameters too big.
I note your comment about the vertical tailplane area. As every Atlantic sketch I've seen shows a dorsal fin fairing much reduced from the Vulcan and the fuselage is longer I agree that an increase in area would be likely. The wing shape to reproduce that very concave leading edge you mentioned would be very difficult as you say.
About the possibility of a tanker version. I agree with you entirely but the UK government have never been very bright when it comes to aviation decisions as we know too well from history. They are no better today than 50 years ago when all this was happening and I was starting out on 50 years in the best business in the world to my mind.
Good luck with your very interesting project. I'll be very interested to follow its progress. Shout out any time if you need more information.
Kind regards.
Mike
Quote from: kitnut617 on October 23, 2010, 09:12:54 AM
Incidently, the Avro Atlantic was featured in a Neville Shute book ----
The book was called 'In the Wet' and the aircraft was called the Avro Ceres, but the discription of it is exactly like the Atlantic
So while I'm waiting for bits to arrive for my DH.101 project, I've been giving this one some thought.
My plan is to upgrade the engines but after studying a cutaway pic of the Vulcan and doing some research, I've discovered that the Olympus 301's used in the Vulcan B.2, just about took up all the space available width wise. Although there is room for a longer engine I think.
What I want to do is put in some bigger diameter engines that a high bypass engine would have, and I've found that the basic structure of the Vulcan plays right into what I have in mind. The cutaway drawing reveals that the basic main structure looks like this:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FVulcanMainStructure.jpg&hash=94d5f39cb366ddd6d3a932df26eed44c4f4eca13)
This is the front and rear spar and four ribs, which split into the two engine bays and bomb bay. These I would say are the primary structrual members that everything else is attached to.
The engine bays though are split into seperate bays with secondry structural members, a sub spar which spans the engine bay and a sub rib going in between the engines. These have a lattice work at the rear end and are not solid plate all through like the others.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FVulcanMainStructure1.jpg&hash=3d18fbe3f0b74a5eca1556688eb0f6a67b3000bf)
So now I can spread apart the engine bay ribs to except bigger engines
Here's a pic of how I envision the wide body Atlantic's new center wing section would look like:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAtlanticMainStructure.jpg&hash=bf36750dbdcb98aa29fa77f4c216a2d28ec0c1c4)
This is a rough comparison between the Vulcan center section and the Atlantic center section, the end ribs are the same on both as are the hot exhaust hole in the rear spar:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FMainStructureComparison.jpg&hash=b6de0a1bb00ce4743d85fbeeb771123f57ea6554)
Not only are the engines bigger in diameter, so is the fuselage, which is twice as big (16 feet as opposed to 8 feet)
The object of this exercise is to up-engine the bigger Atlantic. The Atlantic as proposed to the Ministry would have had engines similar in power to the Vulcan B.1 (somewhere around 10,000 lb to 12,000 lb thrust) plus the wing of the B.1. At the end of it's life the Vulcan was powered by four 20,000 lb thrust Olympus 301's (total of 80,000 lb of thrust) but my thinking for the wide body Atlantic we would need more powerful engines and also have the wing of the Vulcan B.2. My scenario would have four 25,000 to 30,000 lb thrust engines giving about 100,000 to 120,000 lb of thrust, but what-if we took this a stage further and did this:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAtlanticMainStructure1.jpg&hash=853ec797f469d7750de6f6abb255982866da0bc0)
Two of a more modern and much more powereful high-bypass engines. I'm thinking leave the Vulcan wing chord as it is, make the engine bays wider like the previous four engine layout, and feed the air into the engines like a Northrop B.2 (only top and bottom of the wing). Or like the intake of a Harrier is if you think of the cockpit turn sidewards and the cockpit was the front of the wing ---
I like your thinking.
Regards,
Greg
Your last pic, with the two high bypass engines is the way I was thinking of up engineing a Victor, with intakes at top and bottom of the wing. Never got round to building it though! Look forward to seeing your build.
Paul Harrison
:thumbsup: guys,
I think I'll try to get two 767 fuselages and do both versions, do one as an Atlantic II C.3K and the other as a K.4 or something like that. I've got a spare KC-10 flying boom which could go with a backstory that the Canadians used them and to keep conformality with the USAF, converted one of their K.4's for inter-service operations. What I like about the Vulcan is the simplicity of the airframe, it certainly makes things more plausable
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 24, 2011, 07:28:53 AM
The object of this exercise is to up-engine the bigger Atlantic...
Awfully small hole for a high bypass turbo fan to push all that air out of...
A literary whif from 1953
http://www.nevilshute.org/PhotoLine/PLD-1951-1960/pl-1951-1960-02.php
http://www.nevilshute.org/Reviews/inthewet.php
And a link to britmodeller
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t6567.html
Quote from: rickshaw on April 25, 2011, 03:27:27 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 24, 2011, 07:28:53 AM
The object of this exercise is to up-engine the bigger Atlantic...
Awfully small hole for a high bypass turbo fan to push all that air out of...
I suggest you read the text again and the notes on the sketches :angry:
Quote from: thesolitarycyclist on April 25, 2011, 04:49:35 AM
A literary whif from 1953
http://www.nevilshute.org/PhotoLine/PLD-1951-1960/pl-1951-1960-02.php
http://www.nevilshute.org/Reviews/inthewet.php
see further up the thread
Quote from: thesolitarycyclist on April 25, 2011, 04:49:35 AM
And a link to britmodeller
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t6567.html
pics of Wooksta's build is here to somewhere, I'm going to be building a 'standard' Atlantic as well, again see further up the thread.
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 25, 2011, 07:50:41 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on April 25, 2011, 03:27:27 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 24, 2011, 07:28:53 AM
The object of this exercise is to up-engine the bigger Atlantic...
Awfully small hole for a high bypass turbo fan to push all that air out of...
I suggest you read the text again and the notes on the sketches :angry:
I did. Indeed, I just reread it. I don't see any mention of increasing the size of the exhaust on that one, just on enlarging the intakes. The airflow would necessitate both being enlarged, wouldn't it?
Why would you increase the size of the hot exhaust :unsure:
Also go back to post #35
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 27, 2011, 06:19:33 AM
Why would you increase the size of the hot exhaust :unsure:
You can only compress the exhaust a certain amount, particularly with turbofans which rely on moving very large volumes of air. Compare the exhaust of a turbojet:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nasm.si.edu%2Fexhibitions%2Fgal102%2Famericabyair%2Fimages%2F640%2FS.402.p15-P_640.jpg&hash=d255a6f3d36b90a8856e71e56b67a476eff2eef9)
In this case a JT3 (commercial version of the military J53) with that of a turbofan:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fquest.nasa.gov%2Faero%2Fplanetary%2Fatmospheric%2Fimages%2Fturbo.jpg&hash=0d3631797960bdb8d569a971c4f7fa9bdc477fc9)
In this case a JT9D.
A turbofan is essentially a turbojet with a great big fan on the front, driven by the turbojet section of the engine. The fan moves large volumes of air very fast. Compressing it would be very difficult because of the pressures involved. Forcing that much air out the tiny hole you've allowed for in your sketches would be hard without blowing the exhaust of the engine off.
Quote
Also go back to post #35
Read it. I cannot see the "channel". I can see the fan exhausting basically above and below the central engine nacelle - which is not evident in your notes attached to the sketches. I must admit I missed that threat, concentrating on the sketches.
This may simply be a misunderstanding, nothing more. I felt you hadn't taken adequate consideration of the exhaust, that's all. From your comments you feel you have but I can't find anything in the explanation which indicates that you have.
First off, I don't need a lesson on how a turbojet works, I'm fully aware on it's operation
The Vulcan B.2 was powered by four 20,000 lb dry thrust engines, the holes through the rear spar were big enough to accommodate the exhaust pipe for each of these engines. If I take a high bypass engine of say 75,000 lb dry thrust which has a bypass ratio of 8:1, that gives the hot exhaust a thrust of only 9,375 lbs, the rest of the thrust is bypass air. Basic thought here would suggest that the hole in the rear spar has more than enough size to accommodate the exhaust pipe, even to the point that it could even be reduced in size.
Likewise, if I use four 25,000 lb dry thrust engines of about 4:1 ratio, the hot exhaust gas thrust is only 6,250 lbs. Again I would say the holes in the rear spar are plenty big enough to accommodate them. And then if I use a modified Harrier engine, the hot exhaust thrust is equal to the bypass air, so that would again make the holes big enough as the exhaust thrust is only about 12,000 lbs
Now go to post #49 and look at the top sketch again, there's a note pointing to two areas where is says " Engine bypass air flows over and under original wing chord profile". I'm not sure what your interpretation is of that.
Going back to post #35, the photo of the RB-57F shows a strake on either side of the nacelle which starts at the rear of the bypass cowling and extends down the nacelle, there are similar ones under the nacelle. These strakes form a "channel" to which the bypass air is "channeled" down, is that plain enough for you ?
Quote from: rickshaw on April 27, 2011, 08:02:27 AM
Read it. I cannot see the "channel". I can see the fan exhausting basically above and below the central engine nacelle - which is not evident in your notes attached to the sketches. I must admit I missed that threat, concentrating on the sketches.
This may simply be a misunderstanding, nothing more. I felt you hadn't taken adequate consideration of the exhaust, that's all. From your comments you feel you have but I can't find anything in the explanation which indicates that you have.
Wait, you do realize that you guys are splitting hairs over a detail that's
theoretical,
won't be seen on the completed model, and that the model
will not actually fly, right? It's not the point of this discussion.
As a wise man with coconuts once said, "it's only a model..."
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg338.imageshack.us%2Fimg338%2F2048%2Fholygrail038.jpg&hash=87fd6b694fac5768c2f0b9d60820fae7337d9ca0)
This is a VERY rough sketch of the way I read the engine idea. Hope it helps and if it's totally wrong I send my appologies!
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi356.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Foo2%2FAzureDragon27%2Fvulcanfanengine.jpg&hash=50cec462a7e9fd5c902af0a885cb6dabdbf4f34f)
Paul Harrison
Not being sarcastic here, but someone here can see what I'm trying to say.
That is just what my idea is Paul -- thanks
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 27, 2011, 12:14:16 PM
Not being sarcastic here, but someone here can see what I'm trying to say.
That is just what my idea is Paul -- thanks
Now I understand what you wanted to say. However it was not IMO very clear from what you had posted. I merely sought clarification. As I suggested it was a misunderstanding, nothing more, OK? There was no need to go defensive.
That now being cleared up. I wonder whether it would work? What happens to the airflow, in the fan, when air entry is abbreviated by the wing structure?
Brian this a build thread if you want to discuss Engine dynamics then start a new thread in the General Chat section and let Robert get on and build his "What-If" model.
Thanks for the explaination, you don't happen to know how a 'Ram jet' works?
DUDE. SERIOUSLY. END. OF. ENGINE. DISCUSSION.
While I'm eagerly awaiting the release of a 1/72 767 (sometime this year I was told) I'm going to get on with the standard Atlantic I was planning to build. I have all I need in the stash so just needed a KUTA to get it going. This all came about because I picked up another Vulcan kit a week or so ago and I've been looking at how I would go about it.
I'm going to work out the wing to fuselage connection using my drafting CAD program but first I need a couple of chord profiles to work with. With the Airfix kit the outer wing parts join on at the same place the real ones do, just outboard the engine bays, so getting this profile is just a case of putting it on a piece of paper and tracing around it. The profile I really do need, the chord between the engine bay and fuselage, is a bit more problematic as I have to cut the inner wing off the fuselage to get it. The problem here is the fuselage shape helps to keep the wing shape so cutting off the wing makes it too flexible and it won't keep it's shape. What I have to do is re-enforce it first ---
What I've done here is to assemble the air intake ducts and dry fit them onto the tiny posts that are in the bottom half of the fuselage/wing
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic002.jpg&hash=a432b541e170b66a6e17e32101c925bb8c4c7443)
then ran glue along the top edge of the ducts where it will contact the top half of the fuselage/wing. Once this was dry I pulled the halves apart (which had the ducts in the top half) then added some styrene strip to hold everything firmly.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic010.jpg&hash=caeeb9d649d94e1ddd4ce09a9a4565807b2443f3)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic011.jpg&hash=13ce84329bf40ac1d1c59cd98a764cc3f692998c)
Once this was dry I glued the two halves together but before doing that I glued in the bomb bay fairing for the Blue Steel. I made this much stronger by adding more styrene strip along the whole length of the bay sides as the kit has only four little triangles to hold this part in.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic009.jpg&hash=98f4ce4da829576f260d15ed871bd49f8f7a693d)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic008.jpg&hash=b63d5c349ccb30f6615a0252aac06b3d35037126)
Here I'm making sure it all holds together right
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic013.jpg&hash=ea26ec60edadef677a3e8cea87d27e40888bbfac)
This is now ready to go to the saw and have the inner wings cut off.
I started working on the Atlantic fuselage, for this version of the Atlantic I'm going to use a B-36 fuselage for most of it but use a 737 forward fuselage for the front.
Here's the two fuselages I'm using, the Monogram B-36 (which just happens to be 12'-6" diameter) and a Combat Models 737-100 (got this cheap because there's some flaws in the moulding and I told the owner I just needed something to cut up)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic018.jpg&hash=7bd5cf623c9fec6fe6bfc90fcc4bbce662dc694f)
I decided to cut the wing root and bomb bay out of the B-36 fuselage and rejoin them after some more styrene strip was added for re-enforcement
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic019.jpg&hash=b07676db55241a822cccb82e5858da95207a24b9)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic022.jpg&hash=13d56f38f9e4864de01e77c09f864860d9e35028)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic023.jpg&hash=78839822ddc1f97b3d33b046f41d7e6577824814)
Then I glued the two ends back together
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic024.jpg&hash=c2d0678c7c6cd2589ca24408afd7a4b7a5dcbacf)
I will have to do something similar to the front end where the 737 fuselage joins on, I'll do a 'Z' cut from just behind the gunners window hole, down to the centerline of the side then cut horizontally to a point that is just in front of the gunners window
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic020.jpg&hash=b5e1440113bf2998aecbe778f58ac47d06b4a5b0)
I haven't decided yet what to do with the rear end but it will have to be about 8" long. I'll probably have to scratch build this bit.
Just looked on the Aircraft in Miniature website to see when the ETA is for the 767, it's now available --- :thumbsup:
So the shopping starts, fan fronts from Braz, Vulcan white metal u/c legs from Scale Aircraft Conversions, Vulcan wheels from Mastercasters, hmm! what else do I need --- ah yes, decals. Now what scheme to do, one will have to be Canadian
Woah some B-36 whiffery....love it!
Great to see you tackling such a monster project, Robert! I want to see more!!!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Brian da Basher
Thanks Brian ---
Anyway, I've got the nose on now. It went on fairly easy which was a surprise, the 737 vacuform is only .5mm thick (and very flimsy) whereas the B-36 plastic is 1.5mm thick. It didn't come out too bad I think.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic025.jpg&hash=2b7fb073fe9a6920879ff6265cf14c28d9b79609)
Now a bit more challenging thing is next, I have to scratch build the tail cone. Actually they will have to be two half cones as the top half of the rear fuselage cone is shorter in length than the bottom half. ""Give it some thought I will""
The cones are actually called 'paraboloids' because the profile has a curve to it. It will probably go a bit like how I did the air intakes on my STOVL Canberra.
I've decided to keep the radome too, backstory will explain everything (when I get around to it :lol: )
Quote from: kitnut617 on May 18, 2011, 06:46:48 PM<...> It didn't come out too bad I think.
<...>
Not too bad? :o That nose looks like it was never meant to be anywhere else but right there on that very fuselage! :bow:
That nose fits like a glove!
You've really got my interest now!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Brian da Basher
I think I'll settle on this layout for the tail cone, it's not totally right compared to the brochure sketch though.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAtlanticsideview.jpg&hash=e5b3566f3214e9ae8ead9c1a974643ff8b8887fd)
I worked out the distance from the ground to the underside of the fuslage (assuming the fuselage has a horizontal stance when on the ground) which dictated that the fin/rudder had to be a tad larger than what the Vulcan had which is understandable. The extra size I'll just add it to the bottom of the fin I think. Now to work out the templates for the cones, there will be four half cone of one shape or another.
Before I cut the inner wings off, I've measured the AoA the wing is set at on the Vulcan, which is 5.5 degrees. That's the centerline of the chord to the centerline of the fuselage. One thing I'm certain of, it can't be that on this Atlantic, the main wing spar would effectively block any passage through the cabin and there's no way you can put a step-over to get over it. I'm thinking maybe 3.5 degrees but until I can trace the root chord and get it in the computer I won't be able to tell for sure.Looking at the sketch in the brochure would seem to confirm that though.
This pic shows what I mean,
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantic014.jpg&hash=4044d28f8a15790aaf7dd80b33efd85f8a9cd444)
I've traced this outer chord and added it to my side profile and even though this chord is the smaller one it was still way up into the cabin area. Measuring the kit where the main spar would be right next to the fuselage I scale it at 6'-6" deep, the deepest point of the chord scales to 7'-6" but this isn't where a spar runs through.
Wow that's some seriously impressive draftsmanship, Robert! I always appreciate a very thoughtful whiff.
You're more than one up on me. I would've taken the cheesy way out and just used the 737 tail.
I'm really, really enjoying this one! Thanks for the update!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Brian da Basher
Hey Brian, my drafting is assisted by things you can get off the net, I had forgotten I got a 3-View of a 737 in Autocad form so it was relatively easy to 'copy & paste' what i needed ;) (we really need an 'embarressed' smiley)
I did trace the shape first and it came close to the 3-View so I know the Combat Models -100 is fairly accurate. The tail I just traced around the kit part then modified it a bit.
Anyway, I've decided to do a very subtle re-profiling to the underside of the 737 fuselage to make it look a bit more like the Atlantic. The transition from the nose tip to the bottom of the fuselage in the side view is much more smoother.
This pic is of how the 737 is, the bulged look to it is because the wheel bay is in this location.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile001.jpg&hash=8b4ad5f9eef3a58d07a02e66f32c01ea283870ac)
I've re-worked the drawing profile to look more like the Atlantic and to make the profile more gradual, I've had to make a keel that will hold the shape, this is helped by the fact the vacuform plastic is very flimsy. But I needed to do something else while I did this, put the new wheel bay in too. I've used the Vulcan wheel bay for this and I've attached the keel to the front of it. Actually it's the back of the wheel bay, but because the front u/c retracts forward on the Atlantic, I've turned it around. The u/c leg will now be just in front of the radome.
There was a small problem of trying to keep the keel/wheel bay in the correct orientation so I had to make some bulkheads and such.
Here's a couple of pics of the keel/wheelbay assembly.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile003.jpg&hash=341156d19cc9e2888090df01ca8503d8e55be09e)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile004.jpg&hash=2303a741da93cc587fb3f17147a3f24200eeb10c)
I cut myself a round bulkhead which fits just in the 737 fuselage, then marked out where it will straddle the wheelbay. This was all glued together with a stiffener to hold the bulkhead square to the wheelbay.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile002.jpg&hash=e2ab0bcb48fd96f6e818669c93c624857da829d9)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile005.jpg&hash=784f8a843f596effed24d4185fa2433d45e4ac30)
Then it was just a case of glueing the assembly into the fuselages.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile006.jpg&hash=c6c2c3ea58041be93da19f2d8121cc9ed3b7dc13)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile007.jpg&hash=0425e5a3a13aec5fdbf9248a97a7e43c0f6373a0)
You can see the slight difference the new profile is now
A 'before & after'
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile001.jpg&hash=8b4ad5f9eef3a58d07a02e66f32c01ea283870ac)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile008.jpg&hash=d756af5c97bbe73948dbd6852bca5430d239e56b)
I can't lay claim to the idea Duncan, all the Aircraft in Miniature kits have a keel, even the DC-9 one. These though are a full keel top to bottom and also have a little flange all around the keel which is used to glue the two sides too. Thanks for your comments --
Another view of the keel, I tapered the flange because as you get to the nose the fuselage sides become closer to the center. I rounded off the flange too, to conform better with the sides.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile009.jpg&hash=9b11204ee9f3a40af8495dc18dad5b394a61585c)
This is some seriously sophisticated whiffery, Robert! It's really beginning to take shape and thanks for keeping us up to date with the pics and the play-by-play!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Brian da Basher
That is some surgical precision! :bow: Superb job so far :thumbsup:
So I got some more done, in between bouts of intense RW stuff.
I've duplicated the starboard side of the fuselage but not the 737 bit, leaving that off for a while because I want to detail the cockpit. I've now glued the two sides together.
I'm going to copy this for the cockpit, it comes from the Welsh Models 1/72 737-200 kit:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticcockpittub001.jpg&hash=aaf70c86b563518528389af9ce48de3c6f45c4c6)
I'll either do it with styrene, or do something I've never tried before, ""dropping it in rubber"". I might just give the casting a try because I have a lot of other things I wouldn't mind doing a casting of.
So I started on the tail end and the plan was to use as much of the B-36 as I could. Unfortunately, the compound curves of the B-36 tapering don't match up very well with what I've managed to develop for the Atlantic. So I chopped the tail off right where the tapering starts. I added in a bulkhead right where I chopped the tail off so I had something to attach the tail section.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile018.jpg&hash=a215aa392bd042df26d914cc241f66ade0ea8d81)
What I did was to make a keel in the vertical and horizontal, then filled it with some formers. These I had to work out what the correct shape would be for each station.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile025.jpg&hash=9d268e486459438da5ac122a800b3ae7a7c9155c)
To make the formers I developed them in my CAD program, then printed them onto a large sticky backed label. Originally I was going to do it like this;
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile013.jpg&hash=bee224bdf3f0cd9cdd69a1ab018515f751f73118)
but then got to thinking 'that's a lot of cutting', so I joined them up like this (these are not round but eliptical);
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile011.jpg&hash=a9e1170ed5970bac5b1b3fe55417d293db69ffd8)
where I was able to do one cut for the lot of them in one direction;
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile012.jpg&hash=b9fc6bfe68a6056f4929d9a46109dbea08b91e25)
I then developed out the skin, this isn't a simple cone shape as all the sides have a compound curve so the end result of the development looked like this;
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile022.jpg&hash=62c7739fd5c6e55ea29142e9b3d83236f1000617)
Which was then printed on the sticky label, stuck to styrene and then cut out.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile026.jpg&hash=648722809a4899266a4796d2bf2b08ebd970747f)
Each one of those little 'fingers' has a slight curve to each side which when the large end is rolled into a tube, the 'fingers' form the compound curve of the fuselage, That's what the plan was ---
I marked the center finger and then glued this to the top of the vertical keel, then worked my way down each side glueing each finger to the next one. I got very involved with this and forgot to take some pics of what I was doing (I'll do it when I do the bottom half) but in the end it worked out, --- fairly well ----
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile027.jpg&hash=f956eed127e3fdeccaa3e72b6e8a5f0e3640fb54)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile028.jpg&hash=0ae764466358e2225cc2d2844f0d62f862aed244)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile029.jpg&hash=7afbe24579b00062a9dfd7b5a949427b6f56e0bc)
You'll notice I've used the small radome from the Vulcan, I cut some slots into the bit that is inserted into the tail and used this to hold the keels in shape at the very end. Plus the ledge works as a good point for collecting and glueing all the fingers ends.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile010.jpg&hash=c9f4e1a092a2c9ec6629b908ba8248f622b29f5f)
Before I stated on the skinning I added a brace because the whole keel assemble would twist if I wasn't to careful, it did stiffen it up quite a bit. This was purely for assembling purposes because now the the skin is on the whole structure is very stiff.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile017.jpg&hash=cb7dcc43bd0e8d83485ac111ba19624b8b221cc0)
I've given the skin a precursory sanding just to take the rough edges off, did this just so I can see what the shape turned out like. It won't get the full sanding until the whole tail is skinned.
Cheater. Yer s'posed ta spile each 'plank' individually mate.
Ye'd never make it as a boatbuilder. ;)
Nice work Robert. :thumbsup:
What a build! Enthralling & educating...I'm learning an awfull lot just reading :bow:
Thanks for your kind words guys, really appreciated.
I've been thinking ahead about how I'm going to attach the wings, my plan is to put in a couple of spars so that I can line up the wings level. It would seem that the rear spar would be about where the fuselage starts to taper at the bottom (where I've cut the B-36 tail off). This is either purely co-incidental, or just where it was supposed to go. The 3-View I'm using shows in the plan and side view, that the trailing edge of the wing root chord, lines up where the rear fuselage tapering starts in the plan view and along the top in the side view (same point as where I have just put the front of the tapering skin on the model), when I measure back to the rear of the Vulcan bomb bay (which we already know is where the rear spar is on a Vulcan), it works out the same as the distance between the end of the B-36 part and the first former in the new tail section. I think I'm going to develop the rear spar now and glue it onto the bulkhead I've put in the end of the B-36 fuselage. This won't interfer with the skin that has to go just behind it, I'll just make a notch on each side of the skin bit and go around the spar.
Thinking about where and how the front spar will go and will look like, got me doing some measuring on the Vulcan model. Where I plan to cut the inner wing off the Vulcan fuselage, scales out to 8'-6" and where the outer wing attaches to the inner wing, it scales at 4'-0" deep at the main spar location, 5'-6" deep at a point in between the intake ducts and 6'-6" deep where the cut will be.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile030.jpg&hash=fe6ce8ce1520d2cfe080621bc031c0195673cca8)
I've been pondering this for a while now because there's a problem here. The Atlantic fuselage was to be 12'-6" in diameter and if we go with the fuselage walls being 3" thick, this gives you 12'-0" diameter on the inside. What this is leading up to is that the Vulcan wing has a set AoA of 5.5 degrees off the fuselage centerline, but this can't happen on the Atlantic because it would mean the main spar would protrude out of the cabin floor by a huge margin, nearly 3 feet if I've calculated it right. I don't think you'd have passengers crawling over the spar just to go up and down the cabin. Besides, in cabin layout sketches I've seen, there's a little lounge placed right here.
I think the AoA would have been less than on the Vulcan but I haven't determined what it would be yet. I also think there is a way around it too, which brings me back to the spar depths I mentioned earlier.
If we look at this sketch (and it is a rough sketch, not to scale)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FVulcanInnerWingSection.jpg&hash=960010d106b0d697a393be3739a75e839c9a88ab)
we can see how the air intake ducts pass through the main spar.
You'll notice that the outer duct has less depth in the spar than the inner duct so there's an average between them. The Vulcans main spar passes through the fuselage making up the front end of the Bomb Bay and forms the same profile as the fuselage while doing this.
This can't happen on an Atlantic because it will block off all the cabin thoroughfare. So my solution would be to have the top of the spar at 'average' depth, which then travels through the fuselage and the top of the spar would be at the same level as the top of cabin floor, which then leaves a good 7 feet of headroom for the cabin walkway. Like in this sketch
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAtlanticInnerWingSection.jpg&hash=616018ddd5bcd3af42bfdb82605dbb88a7515c71)
All I have to do now is draw this as close to scale as possible so I can see what sort of AoA I can acheive for the wing. I would have the bottom of the rear spar level with the bottom of the fuselage to help here. The profile of the wing root chord would be held in position by auxiliary framework and not be part of the main structure as all has to do is maintain the chord shape. What is nice with the Atlantic, and because there's no bomb bay, we can have two of these main spars. The reason is because the engine fronts, are quite a way in and further back than the main spar. In fact they're behind another secondary spar which spans the engine bay, and also behind the air brakes. This secondary spar could then become another main spar, which in turn will increase the strength of the inner wing. Measuring the Vulcan kit where this secondary spar is, the spar scales out as 4'-6" at the outer wing attachment point, 5'-6" in between the engine ducts, and only 5'-10" at the point where I plan to cut the wing off. But because the wing is sloping down to the rear, this deeper dimension would actually be close to the top of cabin floor. it would seem that this spar will be the governing factor on how the wing is set to the fuselage.
Doing a bit of layout and I find the most AoA I can get is about 2.5 degrees. Drawing some lines on the 3-View seems to confirm that so I wonder if that was it. I think that's what I'll go with anyway but I would still have to go with the modified spar depths to do it..
It looks like you're going through the exact same problems that AVRO designers had back in the day KN... :banghead:
Interesting approach for the tail end of the fuselage. I may have to borrow that sometime...
Quote from: kitnut617 on May 26, 2011, 03:15:09 PM
Doing a bit of layout and I find the most AoA I can get is about 2.5 degrees.
That would have made for a serious angle of attack for the fuselage on final approach I reckon. Good thing the windscreen is close to the nose or you'd have to invent the droop snoot before its time. ;D
Quote from: Hobbes on May 27, 2011, 01:58:46 AM
Interesting approach for the tail end of the fuselage. I may have to borrow that sometime...
Even though I only have five formers to hold the shape, I developed three times as many to get the shape of the 'fingers' correct. Each former has a circumference, which when divided equally, gives the width of that part of the finger at that particular point. Each former is divided the same amount, in my case I went with 17 for a half circumference. An odd amount will leave one finger in the middle. And the smaller you can make the finger's width, the smaller the 'flat' spots are on the surface which means less sanding to make it round once it's dried.
The trick though, is determining the length of each finger --- ;)
Quote from: PR19_Kit on May 27, 2011, 02:48:17 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on May 26, 2011, 03:15:09 PM
Doing a bit of layout and I find the most AoA I can get is about 2.5 degrees.
That would have made for a serious angle of attack for the fuselage on final approach I reckon. Good thing the windscreen is close to the nose or you'd have to invent the droop snoot before its time. ;D
The engineer that we use to check any of my RW designs has always told me that a beam is only as strong as it's weakest point, that would mean on the Vulcan spar the depth of the beam where the outer air intake duct passes through it. If I use that depth, I can get the wing at 3.5 degrees AoA (the Vulcan's set AoA is 5.5 degrees) And if I go with the plan of using two spars I think it would've worked.
Didn't get much done this weekend, spent the time cutting grass (if you take away the house and garage area and some trees, I had about 4 1/2 acrers to cut), but I've been planning on how the wings will attach to the fuselage. I've made a little discovery while offering up parts, as I've said previously, the bottom profile of the tail tapers earlier than the top and what's viewed from the top. I had thought this was something to do with having clearance when the aircraft rotated at take-off, but it doesn't seem so now that I've had a good look at it. First off, the bottoms of the engine nacelles extend below the wing at the rear and the tapering starts before the end of the tailpipes so it's got nothing to do with the rotation, but what it seems to do is to follow the wing chord profile on the bottom of the wing. I think this is actually what I have to follow to set the AoA of the wing and how the spars worked doesn't really matter (except I want to be able to explain it if anyone poses a question to me --- )
The deed has been done ------ I've cut the inner wings off the Vulcan fuselage
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment001.jpg&hash=8526fe26d551d12d5ec0ad1063ab08db3e6adf10)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment002.jpg&hash=353ca3a673d6c6e93d3e11b8bcdaee1447179b06)
I had to do this because my plan was to add a spar to the bulkhead at the end of the B-36 part so I had something in place to line up the wings, plus I needed to know where the wing will go. Once cut off though, there's a problem of orientating the wing to the Atlantic fuselage to set that spar, as I need something to hold things in place while I'm continually altering parts that will have to go in. What I've done is come up with a couple of saddles where I've very carefully measured the insides of the wings so that these will slip on-and-off without having to line everything up each time. It's made easier because the wing doesn't have any dyheadral or anheadral and where the kit parts join can be used for reference points.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment007.jpg&hash=c3439e771c7061c993b6770c4831fd9c010d2a58)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment008.jpg&hash=d3a77a92f1e259b0805db8c63df63f39b60db3c8)
I've set the wing as I said I would in the last post, I've lined up the underside of the rear chord profile to the fuselage underside, and even though I should have used the chord profile to establish the fuselage profile, what I had drawn came out pretty damn close.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment003.jpg&hash=5d692a66d791bbd1812b9aa06cb359fc8ed11a4e)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment005.jpg&hash=a4cd47d1465660879281677a3ea0009365217f78)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment004.jpg&hash=fdc7c1622ce0b6ac2f645f25d33b134a8ebd29c1)
The set AoA came out pretty much where I said it would, I got it to 3.5 degrees.
Looking good Robert.
One note on aviation terminology, the angle of the wing to the fuselage when viewed in profile is its 'incidence'
rather than Angle of Attack. AoA refers to the aircraft maneuvering in pitch.
Cheers Jon --- thanks for the correction. :thumbsup:
Here's another view
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment006.jpg&hash=59d9ca097acd132681056d476bbd63355aac7e4f)
and a bottom view
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment.jpg&hash=73c674b15df7f15c24dc83032f89c9bbbff0fbaf)
Looking at how this is going together, I don't think I'll bother with the spar I was planning on putting in. I think by the time I've added a number of formers between the wing and fuselage side it will be plenty strong enough. I might even leave a part of the saddle inside too, I'll just cut off what I don't need.
wow...
its looks like its going to be a heck of a finish.
though i must admit it has rather the look of a star ship in some of the pics, with the mix of smooth complete areas and open "scaffolding" parts.
I am totally in awe of this build - AVROs designers couldn't have modelled it better :bow:
you sure your only doing this in plastic and not 1.1 scale
Quote from: lenny100 on June 02, 2011, 01:07:46 PM
you sure your only doing this in plastic and not 1.1 scale
;D
I like to figure out the ins & outs of the things and anyway, this one might just go to a show, so you just know there's going to be a JMN around somewhere who figures he knows everything about it --- :wacko:
Can this be nominated for a whiffie as it is?
Gondor
Here's an interesting comparison, I've modified the port wing to Vulcan B.1 standard but with a slight variation.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment009.jpg&hash=6e5e00fc6503b96b08f4567530fa6a0ac6b9d522)
I measured and scaled the Atlantic 3-View and found that the span of one wing is almost the same as a Vulcan B.2 wing, but the B.1's wing tip is where the outer end of the resin bit in the photo shows. What I've done is to extend the leading edge of the resin bit from the point of the little kink in the B.1 conversion, out until it intercepts the B.2 wing tip. It ends up with a wing tip that looks like the Atlantic's.
Once I've closed up the gap between the inner wing and fuselage (about 3-4mm), I'll re-measure the wing to establish the correct location of the wing tip.
I always feel like a kid playing with tinkertoys when I see serious modifications like this, Robert! My hat's off to you for such a sophisticated approach which I'm sure will really pay off for you in the end!
:bow: :bow:
Brian da Basher
This is going Well :thumbsup:
Thanks guys ----
we really need an "embarrased" smiley :lol:
Quote from: kitnut617 on June 03, 2011, 02:40:40 PM
Thanks guys ----
we really need an "embarrased" smiley :lol:
Here you go:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.100megsfree3.com%2Ffwc493%2FSmileyDirectory5%2FB%2FC_EmbarrassedR.gif&hash=8dd0441f3166d67eebb433aa14ccc2262c8822ba)
Though you have no need to use it - the talent shown in this build is outstanding!
Regards,
Greg
Not done very much to the Atlantic this last week, I've been extremely busy with work.
I did get the next development done though, this will go under the front part of the tail assembly. I've gone with 15 'fingers' this time just to see how it turns out and I'll add a couple of rows of formers too. Here's the development but it's not cut out yet.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile033.jpg&hash=e5ae86fea3d3b1976efbc3c62c52b849c18183bb)
In between waiting for critical answers for my day job, I did make a start on the fin. The dimensions on the 3-View would have the top of the tail from the ground at 34'-9" when on it's wheels, this would mean that the standard Vulcan fin has to be a bit bigger. I want to use the dorsal fillet that comes on the Vulcan, even though the Atlantic didn't have one, so I cut it off the fin like this,
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile032.jpg&hash=41a64477c2dd2dc456095882f71f3ac6877a35e2)
then glued a bit of styrene to the cut edges to bring the part I cut off back to where it should be because of the cut width. But when I glued the cut part back on (about 7mm downwards by sliding the fillet along the piece of styrene) so it would match the tail profile I've drawn, it just didn't look right, the new fin size looks too small to me, especially for an airliner as big as a 707. So I moved it down some more (15mm), glued it back on and added some extensions to the fin sides. I cut the bottoms of the extensions to roughly match the very end of the fuselage.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile034.jpg&hash=128a819295a0d6ecbd86edd7a6a776efba035196)
This made it look much better so I've carefully sanded the edges that join to the fuselage to fit better, making sure the top and bottom lines of the rudder stayed parallel with the fuselage top.
Here is a couple of pics of how it will look once the whole end has been tidied up.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile035.jpg&hash=4f198371cbbe531b19abc83089934ae41d7b3212)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile036.jpg&hash=b34817373ea2c756d8decf870b9105024ed6a308)
Robert, that's all looking SERIOUSLY impressive! I can hardly wait to see the finished article. :bow: :bow: :bow:
Gorgeous! :thumbsup: :cheers: :bow:
This is one amazing build Robert, I have only dreamed of building something like this from scratch :bow:
Your pictures are very inspiring too and I will be watching the progress on this very carefully.
Cheers,
chris.
There's solutions to future problems in this build - perfect for all... :thumbsup: :bow:
I'd always suspected we had at least one airframe engineer secretly among us.
This is some amazing work and the end result is bound to be stunning!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Brian da Basher
Thanks everyone for your very kind words, you've made my day --
Here's a little teaser on my backstory, I'm going along the lines that the Cuban Crisis happened a few years earlier, and that Khrushchev (still smarting from having to back down) upped the retoric and escalated every confrontation the East/West had afterwards. This prompted all the Western governments to increase their armed forces and the UK wasn't any different. They gave Avro (UK) an increased Vulcan order, plus an order for the new tanker/transport support aircraft, to be called the Atlantic. This created a major problem as Avro didn't have any more room to build them, nor was the British aero industry able to help because everyone was totally swamped with their own work.
However, the same couldn't be said in Canada ---- A.V.Roe Canada had just gone through the upheaval of having a very important contribution to the West' cause cancelled (The CF-105) through party political gamesmanship, so Hawker Siddeley immediately started contractual talks with A.V.Roe to build the Atlantic for them, and they came to agreement to build 30 Atlantic C.1's and 20 K.2's for the RAF.
More later as I expand on this ---- :lol:
So up to now, things have been going fairly well. But I've had a couple of problems to deal with.
First one was when I decided to glue on the shape I bent in the microwave, for some reason or other it holds it's shape 'very' well. Didn't matter how much I tried to un-bend some of it, it would return to the shape I bent it at. So when I went to glue it on I had to clamp it down while the glue dried. But afterwards once the the clamps came off, I found I had clamped it too tight so it ended up with some concave faces. In hindsight, I should have glued in some extra formers but I didn't think it needed it at the time.
So I've had to revert to Carlos' method of laminating some styrene but I'm not sure it has glued 100% even though I flooded in between the sheets with liguid glue. Anyway, end result is that I've a bit more work to do with the PSR.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile037.jpg&hash=4680322df0ab20ab65400185c50267a68a2f3919)
I did put in some extra formers for the next development
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile038.jpg&hash=b72460f2e95e36d3bd77a7ad1a6ffc8043a3bb3e)
And then cut out the next development
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile039.jpg&hash=333b944331b408767f4e6fc02bb923274891ad40)
I glued it on like the first development, by starting with the middle finger, then glued a couple more together and then let dry.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile041.jpg&hash=303e6c472127afbd82b322d20aed305753436307)
I only do a couple at a time so that I can get inside with the glue applicator and glue the fingers to the formers, like this
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile042.jpg&hash=92fbcfac0f9123925f405b09a55813abc9d68340)
Then I roll a rubber band over it to hold it while the glue dries.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile043.jpg&hash=1a094587e57bada9b69a6fd47918f83393685d70)
Looking good. Enjoying this build. :bow:
The second problem I'm having to deal with is that my developments are not quite right, I tried to short-cut how I did them but each time the shapes didn't fit very well, even though the end result came out alright. The first development I didn't cut enough of the plastic out between the fingers, the second develpoment I cut too much so I ended up with having to add a couple of fillers in.
In the last pic above where I have the rubber band in place you can see the gaps I've got. On the plus side the fingers form themselves over the formers pretty much how the end shape should be but for the last development I decided to work it out properly.
I've a number of books which detail how to do sheet metal developments (five of them which I use for my day job) but there's not one that shows how to do a paraboloid so I've had to do a bit of thinking about it. One of my books does show how to do an elipse to round and reducing at the same time with the centers above each other, there's also one for an offset center layout but these both have straight sides but they did offer a clue on how to do a paraboloid (to me anyway). It seemed to me that to develop a paraboloid it is actually a series of either round to rounds or elipse to rounds (as is my case) so I spent an afternoon figuring it all out.
Here's actually what a paraboloid development really looks like, in this case the rear underside of the fuselage tail.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2Fparaboloiddevelopment.jpg&hash=e4941a065d37a13b8f84a7fa9cd0a54263a58799)
Each one of those boxes with a cross in it has been individually worked out and no two are the same (although from the center line one side is an exact mirror image of the other) and each one of the lines (except the horizontal center line) are all curved but not at any constant radius.
But here's the catch, you can't use this on a flat piece of styrene and then just bend it around the formers on the model. If this was done in metal you would bend it by using a bit of machinery called an 'English Wheel'. This machine 'dishes' the shape so you get the compound curves in all directions. I think what I'll do is print this on some cardboard and then cut along the long lines to make it into 'fingers' and then see how it offers up to the model. If that works I'll do it in styrene
Quote from: kitnut617 on June 11, 2011, 08:27:10 AM
...... so Hawker Siddeley immediately started contractual talks with A.V.Roe to build the Atlantic for them, and they came to agreement to build 30 Atlantic C.1's and 20 K.2's for the RAF.
And what about the C(K)3s for the RCAF? ;D
Wonderful construction details Robert, it's going to be a landmark model when you finish it. :thumbsup:
Quote from: PR19_Kit on June 16, 2011, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on June 11, 2011, 08:27:10 AM
...... so Hawker Siddeley immediately started contractual talks with A.V.Roe to build the Atlantic for them, and they came to agreement to build 30 Atlantic C.1's and 20 K.2's for the RAF.
And what about the C(K)3s for the RCAF? ;D
Wonderful construction details Robert, it's going to be a landmark model when you finish it. :thumbsup:
Cheers Kit --
I've been thinking about what marks might have appeared and this is what I've come up with.
C.1 -- with Vulcan B.1 wings and engines (Olympus 101), transport
K.2 -- same as above but a tanker
C.3 -- with Vulcan B.1a wings and engines (Olympus 201), transport
K.4 -- same as above but a tanker
C.5 -- with Vulcan B.2 wings and engines (Olympus 301) option not proceded with as production was about to switch to the wide- body Atlantic.
C.6 -- RCAF variant with specific Canadian equipment, B.2 inner wings, B.1a outer wings, Orenda Iroquois engines without afterburner (same power as Olympus 301 but in a smaller package) ;D
But here's something else that the C.6 is going to have ---- a swingtail --- ;) and in Canadian service it was called a CC-137 Husky ('cause the RCAF didn't buy the 707)
Quote from: PR19_Kit on June 16, 2011, 11:14:54 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on June 11, 2011, 08:27:10 AM
...... so Hawker Siddeley immediately started contractual talks with A.V.Roe to build the Atlantic for them, and they came to agreement to build 30 Atlantic C.1's and 20 K.2's for the RAF.
And what about the C(K)3s for the RCAF? ;D
Wonderful construction details Robert, it's going to be a landmark model when you finish it. :thumbsup:
Ditto from me :bow: :thumbsup:
Heavens! It's really a craftwork. I used Milliput to fill all but you made a real fuselage. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Don't worry Pablo, the putty is coming ----- ;)
Thanks for the comments though :thumbsup:
Quote from: kitnut617 on June 17, 2011, 12:57:39 PM
Don't worry Pablo, the putty is coming ----- ;)
Thanks for the comments though :thumbsup:
Aye but not as much as mere mortals like myself :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Just catching up with this: what an outstanding piece of work! :bow: :bow: :bow:
impressive!!
Amazing craftsmanship. And I completely understand the complexities and frustrations of dealing with compound curves.
Thanks Barry, everyone --
The build has slowed down somewhat, very busy workwise and now summer has finally decided to show up and lots of other things to do around the property, the main being trying to keep 4 acres of grass cut. If only the weather would co-operate though. We had a very close call a couple of days ago, three tornadoes (not the planes) touched down only about 50 kms away and the weather warning announcement came on and said it was travelling eastwards, and that was straight at us. Fortunately, it went north-northeast barely missing four towns, one farmers property got picked up and dumped somewhere else but no injuries anywhere thank goodness.
I have managed to procede with the skinning of the tail end, the final development has been worked out and trialed on some cardboard. First attempt I cut the development into the fingers I've been doing, leaving the large end connected. But I couldn't determine if it was right, so I did another one only this time leaving the small end connected together. That was about as successful as the first try but then I thought about it a bit, I realized that I didn't need to cut either end completely as the development should be the correct shape (only flattened). I pondered on how to 'dish' the shape and came up with the idea of heating it and then forming it but I quickly change my mind about that. The solution was just to cut along the curved lines but leave about 3/16" each not cut each end. Once I did that I could bend the shape width wise, then roll the shape up at the ends, it 'dished' pretty much how I wanted it to.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile046.jpg&hash=d3c03d71a8e21daf583aa54f11227eff63a4d5f6)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile047.jpg&hash=7ec659f48d89543f654476cc2a55e7464b92eff9)
Now I've started to do this on styrene, first printing the shape on the label sheet then sticking it to the plastic. I'm cutting along the lines before I cut the shape out completely, helps holding everything down by doing that.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile045.jpg&hash=ca8038e7de5abcd3a42bca2183717fda1028aebd)
As the tail end is getting close to being finished, I've started to think how I'm going to fit the wings on. I've drilled some large holes in a sheet of styrene and from there I will layout each former. I'm going to put a former every 3/4" so what you see here will do one side. or half of both sides at the same time.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile044.jpg&hash=742461cf843c48781b94c904da944152dc08d89e)
Another thing I will have to do is finish off the inner wings, that's cleaning up the air intakes and painting some of it. I also decided to add some turbine blades to the exhaust, for some reason Airfix decided to leave this end as 'see-through'. My plan was to file out the exhaust nozzles and then slide a bit of tubing up as far as where the ends of the engines would be, which is just forward of the rear spar. But things got carried away a bit ---- ;D
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile049.jpg&hash=0c20d1db1671b88e8d04cc8dc6718716d046120d)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticprofile048.jpg&hash=1dd3c683c68a86c8cd37abf7fcab7b2c8b1d6dbe)
Anyway, that's where I am at the moment.
You're going to have to try harder than that to make us stop praising you ;)
That brass exhaust looks the business. As always I am amazed by the skills my fellow modellers produce regularly :bow:
Gondor
Quote from: GTX on July 09, 2011, 02:24:59 PM
You're going to have to try harder than that to make us stop praising you ;)
:lol:
I've expanded on what I'm going to do with these tailpipes, I want them to look a little more realistic if anyone should take a look up inside them. A lot of 1/72 kits only show rudimental turbine blades and usually undersized too, so after doing a little research, I realized I have to make a small cone at the front of the tailpipe. This is to make it appear that the engine is bigger in diameter than the tailpipe.
According to wikipedia, the Olympus 301 was 47 3/4" diameter and 280" long, this seems to match what I can see in the cutaway drawing of the Vulcan B.2. It also seems to match the Airfix kit wings of the B.2 if I measure from just behind the airbrakes to the rear of the bomb bay (which is also the rear spar location). As I've briefly explained for my back-story, this model will be a Canadian variant based on a proposed Olympus 301 powered Atlantic C.5 and using a non-afterburning Orenda Iroquois. This engine was a bit smaller than the Olympus 301 though, again wikipedia says it was 42" diameter and 231" long, but here's a puzzling thing I've noticed, this includes the afterburner and the Olympus 301 was a non-afterburning engine. I'm not sure if these dimensions are correct because looking in my 'Arrowhead' book, it doesn't really give any engine dimensions to verify wikipedia. Anyway, what it means is the non-afterburning Iroquois would be even shorter than the 231" ( the Iroquois had 19,250 lbs dry thrust BTW, nearly matching the 301's 20,000 lbs)
In this pair of pics, you can see the small cone I've soldered onto the front end, also you can see small pieces of tubing that is used to space the outer pipe from the inner pipe,
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes001.jpg&hash=65cadee8bb10609a2c0515e0583407b002e64600)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes002.jpg&hash=62f8682f16391d393db6ece9f3f95844e0ce5279)
And in these two pics you can see the outer pipe being slid over the spacers up to the cone.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes003.jpg&hash=98f95b872d1e453c8961fc682cbefeabe6791226)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes004.jpg&hash=74363a01cec9ebd720d105857719101c90700857)
Now what I'm going to do is cut out some turbine blade ring with an 'onion' placed in the middle, I've noticed that when I cut styrene card with scissors it twists the part that has been cut and trying it out on a test piece found it looked quite like a turbine blade ring.
This is the test piece.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes005.jpg&hash=2aba42ed8ce86be6ed3772587b0533db9c0983f9)
And looking down the tailpipe
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes006.jpg&hash=d04a396dea34cdd7807d67ee585f5ab82f8505a8)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes007.jpg&hash=e8dec36ebb39cbe4f6e3bf93b3744dc312501b2c)
Hi Robert,
unlike the Olympus series, the Iroquois was an integral afterburner design, so OAL dimensions
will include the afterburner. Volume 2 of Antony Kay's Turbojet: History and Development 1930-1960,
confirms the Iroquois dimensions quoted on Wikipedia.
Jane's ATWA 1968-69 gives a diameter of 44.5" and length of 128" for the Olympus 301 as mounted on the Vulcan B. Mk.2.
Interestingly the Olympus 101 of the B. Mk.1 was the same length, but only 40.9" diameter.
The Wikipedia numbers are, sort-of, the dimensions of the Olympus 593 with afterburner, not the Olympus 301.
Jane's gives an intake diameter of 47.85" and a length (intake flange to exhaust flange) of 148.4" for the 593 without
afterburner.
Hi Jon, I knew I could rely on some actual facts from someone here. Problem is I've got a problem with those figures for the Olympus 301, they just don't tie in with what I see in the 3-View or on the Airfix kit's wing
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlantictailpipes.jpg&hash=bae521485d69fb654be8b16ca6465417413dca1e)
I think that 128" is a bit suspect, as is the 145"
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2Fengine3virew.jpg&hash=80360f84ae46f326bdce81834bb4b49abd4f182e)
Hi Robert,
the Olympus lengths from the Jane's are inline with other sources. Flight for 29 August, 1963
quotes a length of 131 inches for the 301:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1963/1963%20-%201594.html
Note that, generally speaking, a quoted length dimension is for the engine only, and does not include exhaust piping,
mounting flanges or other installation unique factors.
The Jane's has a photo of Olympus 593s being assembled vertically and based on the guys standing next to them the
flange-to-flange length is believable.
Edit: here is the photo:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi729.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww291%2Fjoncarrfarrelly%2FOLYMPUS-593_01.png&hash=04cdf11d3ad1472767816678fd53c2f0232ed131)
Hi Jon,
Hmm! that would put the end of the engine about in between numbers 40 and 42/43. That also makes the tail pipe nearly 27 feet long :o
Considering the timeline of that article in Flight, how much of that do you think is dis-information
Quote from: kitnut617 on July 18, 2011, 02:56:18 PM
Hi Jon,
Hmm! that would put the end of the engine about in between numbers 40 and 42/43. That also makes the tail pipe nearly 27 feet long :o
Considering the timeline of that article in Flight, how much of that do you think is dis-information
I doubt that any of it is disinformation, as the basic Olympus had been around since the late forties and details had been published since the early to mid-50s.
The Flight cutaway is from the bottom and shows the engine bay hatches:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flightglobal.com%2Fairspace%2Fmedia%2Fmilitaryaviation1946-2006cutaways%2Fimages%2F10792%2Favro-vulcan-cutaway.jpg&hash=ea23d13d52a0028a456e476e2b271081dee24f6a)
This Flight article has a good shot of the 301 with mounting brackets:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1961/1961%20-%200233.html
Very interesting Jon, it would seem then my tailpipes are w-a-a-a-y too short :banghead:
Actually, after studying that underside cutaway view, I can see that the engine bay doors end at about where that truss structure starts at the end of the rib that separates the two engines. I'm actually not far off that point ---hmm! slight modification is required -- ;)
Wow ! Great work :) I love your fuselage forming technique - will have to try it sometime. by the way, what would be the cruising speed of the aircraft? It reminds me a bit of Boeing's Sonic cruiser :)
I would imagine it would have about the same speed as the Vulcan giraffeboy, about 600 mph. From what I've read the Victor was the only V-Bomber to be able to go supersonic, although it would have been in a slight dive when it did that. I haven't read anywhere that the Vulcan could do the same.
This is going well, I continue follow closely this thread, I am fascinated by this plane. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,17715.0
Quote from: Pablo1965 on August 11, 2011, 02:21:47 PM
This is going well, I continue follow closely this thread, I am fascinated by this plane. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Not much progress at the moment Pablo, summer break --- if you can call it that, 4 acres of grass to keep cut, re-doing the fencing to make it easier to cut the grass and then upgrading insulation in the house walls to R20 value. Then my 'pay-the-bills' job has gone ballistic, so much work coming in at the moment it's getting ridiculous.
Quote from: The Wooksta! on August 11, 2011, 02:59:05 PM
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,17715.0
Got you covered there back in post #57 Lee ---- :thumbsup:
Quote from: kitnut617 on August 11, 2011, 03:04:27 PM
Quote from: Pablo1965 on August 11, 2011, 02:21:47 PM
This is going well, I continue follow closely this thread, I am fascinated by this plane. :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Not much progress at the moment Pablo, summer break --- if you can call it that, 4 acres of grass to keep cut, re-doing the fencing to make it easier to cut the grass and then upgrading insulation in the house walls to R20 value. Then my 'pay-the-bills' job has gone ballistic, so much work coming in at the moment it's getting ridiculous.
I also have a summer break, but with my family in the beach, you know, my wife, his mother,my doughter, can I help you with your work? I need relax.
Quote from: Pablo1965 on August 11, 2011, 03:40:42 PM
I also have a summer break, but with my family in the beach, you know, my wife, her mother,my daughter, can I help you with your work? I need relax.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I've not forgotten about this project, but today I got the kit the thread is supposed to be about, the 'wide-body' variant.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FWideBodyAtlantic.jpg&hash=b211bf4539a5c50b79c38439450434423784d7d7)
As soon as I've finished my AV-19A project I will be getting back to this one, along with the new variant.
I've been doing some matching-up-of-parts with this project and have found some very pleasant surprises along the way.
The first is the wide-body variant looks like will be quite an easy conversion, the Vulcan wing will fit onto the fuselage without much surgery and relatively little to do. I've found that if I line up where the u/c leg hinge is on both the Vulcan wing and 767 wing compared to the fuselage, the root leading edge point is in the same place. Also the slot in the 767 kit for the wing to fit into has almost the same shaped and sized chord on both (except the Vulcan wing is much longer towards the rear end). And it looks like I can get the correct wing incidence too, without it intruding into the cabin space.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FWideBodyAtlantic001.jpg&hash=4ec53f3f144d10b1d22ed3ba06b9d381f5dbe542)
On the standard Atlantic, I've decided I want to make it into a true MRTT (that is before the catch-phrase came into being). I'm going to have my model have wing refueling pods which I'm taking from a H.P. Victor. But then looking at the Victors underwing fuel tanks it looked like they could fit under the Vulcan wing, and guess what --- they do :o
It seems that the leading edge sweep of the Victor wing where the tanks are positioned is very close to the leading edge sweep of the inner wing of the Vulcan, and on top of that, the tanks practically follow the wing chord exactly. All I had to do was move the front edge of the pylon away from the leading edge and bingo, it fits perfectly.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FWideBodyAtlantic002.jpg&hash=ad26c540ab223b8cd745491f4a2f3f73e96a693c)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FWideBodyAtlantic003.jpg&hash=9807ecf2f3d46d2cec7b0c253e5afc666c10116b)
Back to the wide-body variant, I will have underwing refueling pods as well as a KC-10 style Flying Boom under the fuselage rear end
Nice progress :thumbsup:
Thread resurrection time:
I've restarted my Atlantic project in a GB over on Beyond the Sprues forum. The GB is for anything from a book, movie or game so as the Atlantic appears in the Nevil Shute book 'In the Wet', I was able to join with what I had already started with.
But it's moving along nicely at the moment, been doing a bunch of rethinking on it, mostly working out how to change the wheel trucks to have four larger diameter wheels instead of the eight smaller ones. It involved elongating the wheel bays to the rear 5mm.
Right now I'm working out my wing to fuselage connection. I'll be drawing it out in my AutoCAD program as I realized most of it can be done there instead of my original plan of using a jig on the model and measuring it physically, then removing it, then repeating the process a number of times.
Here's some new pics of it, got both wings up to the same level of conversion, I went with a pair of Freightdog Olympus 202 tail pipes instead of the brass tail pipes I was making up (save those for another project). I've fitted all the rear fuselage, just needs some sanding and PSR and I've got the starboard side of the forward fuselage sorted. I found though I had glued the port side on with a bit of a kink to it, which became apparent when the starboard side was attached. So I had to sort that out. Made some castings of some parts I wanted to use but not take from the kits they came from. Cockpit and seats come from a Welsh Models 737 and the engine fronts from an Aircraft in Miniature Valiant (these will be converted into Orenda Iroquois engine fronts)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwheelbay001_zpsa5590f63.jpg&hash=3c085b33f9a0fb5c4c371eebab9cb815ce5e92a9) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/AvroAtlanticwheelbay001_zpsa5590f63.jpg.html)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment011_zps9be2aab8.jpg&hash=9ab31ce5e5ee4cf2c6557388027e803aa71bbe12) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/AvroAtlanticwingattachment011_zps9be2aab8.jpg.html)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticwingattachment012_zps83376be8.jpg&hash=ee97eb69060dfc0f227e4bd74fbb8af89ea4b723) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/AvroAtlanticwingattachment012_zps83376be8.jpg.html)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvroAtlanticDetailParts003_zpsd3b9757e.jpg&hash=6a5d615ffa4d52c3d9788ce58f5dbe8f56a13f33) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/AvroAtlanticDetailParts003_zpsd3b9757e.jpg.html)
That's going to one BIG model Robert! ;D
What are the resin leading edges for on the wing please?
It's a nice looking aeroplane
Why does the plan view make me think Skyhawk?
Looking good Robert!
Watch out for those Flightpath B.1 wing inserts, have you added anything for them to attach too?. I had quite a lot of trouble with them in my AEW conversion, every time I puttied them, the act of sanding would cause it to split. It unfortunately led to it being put on the perpetual back burner.
Thanks guys,
Kit, as Simon has eluded to, they're part of the Flightpath Vulcan B1 conversion. The fellow who I contacted who gave me all my info (well 99% of it) told me that had the Atlantic gone ahead it would have got whatever the Vulcan got for wings. This fellow BTW, worked in the Avro drafting office and had actually done quite a bit of the drawings found in the official brochures the Air Ministry received. Unfortunately, he died a couple of years ago so my direct line with the source has evaporated.
Simon, I don't know if Flightpath modified they masters since you got hold of your conversion, because I can't see I will have a problem fixing the edges to the wing, they have quite a big step to the mating surfaces, top and bottom. I did get this conversion about 10 years ago though ---
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FVulcanB1LeadingEdges1_zpsa0bf788c.jpg&hash=cf2a1e62749f511be45eb0f978554c498ec70f99) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/VulcanB1LeadingEdges1_zpsa0bf788c.jpg.html)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FVulcanB1LeadingEdges2_zpsac853265.jpg&hash=6362958a22329aae2dd2bfdc02a0daa80836bb33) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/VulcanB1LeadingEdges2_zpsac853265.jpg.html)
Oh right, that makes sense I guess.
I had one of the very early sets of what became the Flightpath B1 conversion sets, and to put it mildly, it was rubbish. Yours looks a lot better engineered and moulded.
All I've had to do with them was to carefully scrape the inside lip of the cut-outs so that the outsides of each wing part finishes flush with the new edges, it's easier to do it that way than to try filing the little ledge the new edges have.
Quote from: kitnut617 on January 18, 2015, 11:11:09 AM
Thanks guys,
Kit, as Simon has eluded to, they're part of the Flightpath Vulcan B1 conversion. The fellow who I contacted who gave me all my info (well 99% of it) told me that had the Atlantic gone ahead it would have got whatever the Vulcan got for wings. This fellow BTW, worked in the Avro drafting office and had actually done quite a bit of the drawings found in the official brochures the Air Ministry received. Unfortunately, he died a couple of years ago so my direct line with the source has evaporated.
Simon, I don't know if Flightpath modified they masters since you got hold of your conversion, because I can't see I will have a problem fixing the edges to the wing, they have quite a big step to the mating surfaces, top and bottom. I did get this conversion about 10 years ago though ---
Robert, I got mine a couple of years ago and they look the same as yours. They've got a substantial step, but it's a long section that's removed from the wing which tends to flex slightly even with the location "tab", which over time popped the insert slightly, cracking the filler. I'm a bit heavy handed and tend to handle my models a lot so you might not have the same problem, but if you do I'd suggest popping them out, packing the gap and also giving a mating surface to bind to, possibly even pinning it. With mine, I'm probably going to have to put a very thin plasticard shim over the top and blend it in as it continues to happen despite packing the gap.
Sorry to come in late. :-\ Hopefully you won't have the same problem. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Mossie on January 18, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: kitnut617 on January 18, 2015, 11:11:09 AM
Thanks guys,
Kit, as Simon has eluded to, they're part of the Flightpath Vulcan B1 conversion. The fellow who I contacted who gave me all my info (well 99% of it) told me that had the Atlantic gone ahead it would have got whatever the Vulcan got for wings. This fellow BTW, worked in the Avro drafting office and had actually done quite a bit of the drawings found in the official brochures the Air Ministry received. Unfortunately, he died a couple of years ago so my direct line with the source has evaporated.
Simon, I don't know if Flightpath modified they masters since you got hold of your conversion, because I can't see I will have a problem fixing the edges to the wing, they have quite a big step to the mating surfaces, top and bottom. I did get this conversion about 10 years ago though ---
Robert, I got mine a couple of years ago and they look the same as yours. They've got a substantial step, but it's a long section that's removed from the wing which tends to flex slightly even with the location "tab", which over time popped the insert slightly, cracking the filler. I'm a bit heavy handed and tend to handle my models a lot so you might not have the same problem, but if you do I'd suggest popping them out, packing the gap and also giving a mating surface to bind to, possibly even pinning it. With mine, I'm probably going to have to put a very thin plasticard shim over the top and blend it in as it continues to happen despite packing the gap.
Sorry to come in late. :-\ Hopefully you won't have the same problem. :thumbsup:
I'll keep it in mind Simon, they're not glued in yet. For the Vulcan B.1 though, the wing tip end of the resin is the new wing tip location, but mine will have the wing extension you see in my pics, maybe with that it won't 'pop' apart so easily.
This going to be epic ! Love the look of this one. Great thread revival for sure !
:cheers:
Quote from: kitnut617 on January 18, 2015, 01:43:24 PM
Quote from: Mossie on January 18, 2015, 01:40:29 PM
Quote from: kitnut617 on January 18, 2015, 11:11:09 AM
Thanks guys,
Kit, as Simon has eluded to, they're part of the Flightpath Vulcan B1 conversion. The fellow who I contacted who gave me all my info (well 99% of it) told me that had the Atlantic gone ahead it would have got whatever the Vulcan got for wings. This fellow BTW, worked in the Avro drafting office and had actually done quite a bit of the drawings found in the official brochures the Air Ministry received. Unfortunately, he died a couple of years ago so my direct line with the source has evaporated.
Simon, I don't know if Flightpath modified they masters since you got hold of your conversion, because I can't see I will have a problem fixing the edges to the wing, they have quite a big step to the mating surfaces, top and bottom. I did get this conversion about 10 years ago though ---
Robert, I got mine a couple of years ago and they look the same as yours. They've got a substantial step, but it's a long section that's removed from the wing which tends to flex slightly even with the location "tab", which over time popped the insert slightly, cracking the filler. I'm a bit heavy handed and tend to handle my models a lot so you might not have the same problem, but if you do I'd suggest popping them out, packing the gap and also giving a mating surface to bind to, possibly even pinning it. With mine, I'm probably going to have to put a very thin plasticard shim over the top and blend it in as it continues to happen despite packing the gap.
Sorry to come in late. :-\ Hopefully you won't have the same problem. :thumbsup:
I'll keep it in mind Simon, they're not glued in yet. For the Vulcan B.1 though, the wing tip end of the resin is the new wing tip location, but mine will have the wing extension you see in my pics, maybe with that it won't 'pop' apart so easily.
Might be an idea to add a spar going aft from the replacement leading edges to give the wing stiffness and remove the flex in the plastic when grasped too to tightly which sounds to be the crux of Mossies issue. A bulkhead in the wing would stop the flex and remove the stress from the resin join.
Anyway looking forward to seeing the Atlantic progress :thumbsup:
How quickly we ( ahem, I ) forget ! That's a lot of work Robert but it's going to be worth it !
:cheers:
I've worked out how my 4-Wheel trucks will be like ---
First, you need to see how the retraction operation works, I found this excellent video which shows exactly what happens when the u/c retracts (or extends) to understand what I changed and why I changed it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31ypGN0iREE
Here's some pics of the standard wheel truck compared to the new 4-Wheel set up, I was going to use some Boeing 737 wheels but they were just too big so ended up using some Nimrod wheels from the Airfix kit (I managed to screw-up the Aircraft in Miniature white metal set I had originally started to use)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2520wheel%2520bay%2520002_zpsmk47duau.jpg&hash=d6ef9fe49faeaf93a4561edf8e84b6c3a9e310cf) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/Avro%20Atlantic%20wheel%20bay%20002_zpsmk47duau.jpg.html)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2520wheel%2520bay%2520003_zps0nhnsebp.jpg&hash=078ca16b932b4d4fee772538468786fcb416e212) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/Avro%20Atlantic%20wheel%20bay%20003_zps0nhnsebp.jpg.html)
Here's a side view of the modified wheel bay,
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2520wheel%2520bay%2520004_zps2fvftucn.jpg&hash=fa35908e514e3d686fa443d1cf18739687eb3f75) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/Avro%20Atlantic%20wheel%20bay%20004_zps2fvftucn.jpg.html)
And here's how the new truck sits in the bay,
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2520wheel%2520bay%2520005_zpsvfautbhn.jpg&hash=4dbabbcb2fa03fcb3f388b15ff7afd39c0f00a05) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/Avro%20Atlantic%20wheel%20bay%20005_zpsvfautbhn.jpg.html)
But really it would look like this except the small hydraulic cylinder should lie parallel to the oleo leg, and because my model will be posed on it's undercarriage, the oleo is not retracted in this pic which means the leg hinge isn't where it would be.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2FAvro%2520Atlantic%2520wheel%2520bay%2520006_zpsnbqx25vr.jpg&hash=1dc29811ac4f509edb8fbe6a291ec61efdc36a63) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Avro%20Atlantic/Avro%20Atlantic%20wheel%20bay%20006_zpsnbqx25vr.jpg.html)
You'll need to change the sit of the u/c further - the Vulcan has a tail down attitude and it's built into the kit parts.
Nice work Robert ! \
:cheers:
Quote from: kitnut617 on June 30, 2015, 03:53:30 AM
I've worked out how my 4-Wheel trucks will be like ---
First, you need to see how the retraction operation works, I found this excellent video which shows exactly what happens when the u/c retracts (or extends) to understand what I changed and why I changed it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31ypGN0iREE
Well that's wrecked my afternoon.
After that linked vid I just let Youtube run, and as a result I'll be watching '558 vids all day now! :thumbsup: :bow:
Thanks guys, I need to keep going on this but been pre-occupied with the new job
Quote from: The Wooksta! on June 30, 2015, 04:13:34 AM
You'll need to change the sit of the u/c further - the Vulcan has a tail down attitude and it's built into the kit parts.
Yes you're right the Vulcan does ---- but the Atlantic doesn't. That's because all the wing incidence is set differently in the Atlantic fuselage ---
But my intention is to go with the earlier nose u/c leg which comes in the B.1 conversion, it's supposed to be longer but I haven't check it yet
OK, here's an explanation on what I came up with for the 4-wheel truck.
In the youtube video, you can see what happens almost at the same time, the oleo is retracted to it's shortest length and at the same time the small cylinder extends to it's maximum. This then makes the axles in the truck lie almost in line with the center of the oleo. So what happens is, the rear wheels end up at the front of the wheel bay as the u/c leg retracts. Now if you look at the pic of the modified wheel bay, you'll see in the top-right corner it has a bit of a chamfer, well in real life this is the front wing spar cutting across the corner of the bay. What this means is that I can't extend the wheel bay forward to except the larger wheels, so what I did was to leave the center of the rear axle right where it was on the short swing arm it is in, but then move the u/c leg hinge backwards so the larger diameter of the new wheels clears the forward end of the bay. In the pic you can see that I extended the bay backwards by adding an additional wheel bay door hinge spaced off exactly the same as the others are spaced. This moved the leg hinge enough to except the larger wheel diameter and in a couple of 'cut-away' drawings I have from Flight Global, I found that the u/c hinge is attached to a short spar and that this spar can be moved backwards without affecting the structure of the wing too much
But then there wasn't enough space between the front axle and the rear axle for the bigger wheels, so I moved the front axle from it's position directly under the oleo center, to a point just in front of the oleo. What this does when the gear is retracted is position the front wheels (at the rear end of the bay) higher in the bay. There's enough room on the chord depth to do this.
Now all I have to do is add some extra to the wheel bay doors
Yes, the B.1 conversion has the earlier longer leg. IIRC, Avro did seriously consider four wheel bogies for later models of the Vulcan so you're on very firm ground.
Quote from: Mossie on July 01, 2015, 02:49:24 AM
Yes, the B.1 conversion has the earlier longer leg. IIRC, Avro did seriously consider four wheel bogies for later models of the Vulcan so you're on very firm ground.
Thanks for that Simon,
I forgot to mention, by moving the leg hinge backwards and then extending the front axle forward, it only moves the load cg of the truck backwards slightly, which can be accounted for by the placement of the wing to the fuselage.
Mastercasters do a resin replacement wheel set for the Airfix Nimrod BTW
Quote from: Thorvic on July 01, 2015, 11:49:57 PM
Mastercasters do a resin replacement wheel set for the Airfix Nimrod BTW
That's what I thought Geoff, but thanks for the confirmation :thumbsup:
I don't usually go on a youtube spree unless I've had a few pops, so the odds aren't good for me ever clicking on a youtube link lol.
:thumbsup: :cheers:
Alright....now that you've reminded me that I've already seen it ( head injury lol ) it's time to get back at it !
:cheers:
yes -- you're right, I need to finish this project but right now I'm working 6 day weeks and 11 - 12 hours a day. I just don't have the time right now but I've been told things slow down through the winter so that is probably the best time to concentrate on it. Plus try not to start any other new things that I get thinking about ---- :-\
Alright then, if you're not going to show us more pics of this then it's time to start taking more at work :thumbsup:
I can only imagine how busy it would be right now, like somebody said a few weeks back " August, it's the Sunday of summer "
:cheers:
And you're not alone with the new projects.....too many ideas, too many new kits, and this place sure doesn't help any !
:wacko: ;) ;D
Quote from: Captain Canada on September 07, 2015, 07:16:58 AM
Alright then, if you're not going to show us more pics of this then it's time to start taking more at work :thumbsup:
:wacko: ;) ;D
I've been made the " I/C " escort on a project for the last five weeks, I have to be the first there and the last out. The last out depends on when the contractors want to finish for the day
By pure chance I was recently given a copy of In The Wet and have been intrigued by the Ceres - not to mention the timeline! - and was looking up info on the Atlantic, only to stumble onto this thread!
You've done some amazing work, I hope you're still chipping away at this.
By the way...how do the engines work? ;D
Thanks Zac, it's one of those long term projects --- I tried to get it done in a GB on BTS earlier in the year but real life got in the way ---- again.
I've been working on & off it though, mostly where I'm working out the wing to fuselage connection with AutoCAD, but I keep coming up with thoughts like " I wonder what they had planned for this on the real project" because I can see it wouldn't be a connection like on the Vulcan, the two fuselages have different fuselage center lines to the wing chord center line for instance, and I can see just using a Vulcan wing connection just wasn't going to happen --
At least you're still working on it ! Or were, as it were.....
:cheers: