BAe Hawk Mk51A armed with a single CATM. R-60 (AA-8 Aphid) infra red missile aquisition round
got something similar, an Indian SU-30MKI with a wester Litening pod
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bharat-rakshak.com%2Fmedia%2F31649-2%2FKedar_20080815-141__D206128.jpg&hash=d9e44ce4d6c5d5c283a8721c9f64e569c483f837)
and a modified Hawk SAM mounted under the wing of an Iranian Tomcat
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ff-14tomcat.persiangig.com%2FphpNwVmt5AM.jpg&hash=cdb4174f878b760790596de5bfa81a4f8c96d7af)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F_okE2fz_Pef8%2FSGmv-xTEzCI%2FAAAAAAAAAv8%2FPCIe6o0InGU%2Fs400%2F219671_orig.jpg&hash=6fbff16bb09438a82a42b9935fbcdc4f025ae3b6)
There was a UK project for an anti-tank missile called Sabre, which was basically a Rapier with a bulged nose section for a bigger warhead. There was also one to fit Seacat to a Wasp as an anti-FPB weapon. They eventually rejected it in favour of AS.12, followed by Sea Skua.
The Indian Sukhio I can see but what's the story with the Hawk/Aphid combo?
Quote from: Just call me Ray on September 29, 2009, 10:11:52 AM
The Indian Sukhio I can see but what's the story with the Hawk/Aphid combo?
To train pilots for their then-active MiG-21?
Oh, I didn't notice it was Finnish.
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=94573
Quote from: dy031101 on September 29, 2009, 10:32:22 AM
Quote from: Just call me Ray on September 29, 2009, 10:11:52 AM
The Indian Sukhio I can see but what's the story with the Hawk/Aphid combo?
To train pilots for their then-active MiG-21?
Actually until recently the Finnish Hawks had a secondary second-line air defence role.
An Eagle or Strike Eagle in French service and carrying strictly French weaponry? For the Strike Eagle, perhaps replacing the EO LANTIRN pod with a equivalent French-built pod?
Some what-if ideas (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,19359.0.html).
There were also constant rumours that Pakistan might upgrade their F-16A/B fleet with Italian Grifo radar and PRC's SD-10 MRAAM before the MLU upgrade deal became official. Might have been a fun what-if.
What about American missiles on Russian Migs?
(One possible idea with a loadout on a Mig-29M(from wingtip towards the fuselage):AIM-9X Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AGM-65 Maverick & a 500 kg LJDAM(or if the LJDAM is unsuitable, 2/4 250kg SDB's) :wacko: :o)
As in the NATO compatible Mig-29 the Luftwaffe used for a while after the reunification?
Quote from: trekaddict on October 03, 2009, 01:05:03 AM
As in the NATO compatible Mig-29 the Luftwaffe used for a while after the reunification?
No, the Luftwaffle still had to get supplies of R-27s & R-73s from Russia.
Along similar lines, how about a plain vanilla Su-25 with a variety of LGBs accompanied by a modified Su25UB two-seater with a western designator pod on the centreline and tanks and ECM pods on the wings, acting as a "spiker/protector"? Both of them could have Western AAMs for self-defence. The back story would be that it's a former Eastern-bloc country making an effort to help in a NATO-led effort.
The bombs could be any "Paveway-ized" standard bombs, including Whiff Russian bombs with the kit added. The Seld-defence AAMs could be Sidewinder/Magic/AMRAAM, but you'd have to ask why they'd bother if they still had Russian stocks, since AA-8 Aphid is lighter and AA-11 Archer is competetively good.
US fit: Litening (modern) or Pave-spike/Pave-Tack from the Hase weapons set (2nd hand cast-offs) and ALQ-119s/131s.
Brit Fit: TIALD, Skyshadow and BOZ/Phimat
French Fit: French LGB kits (slightly different from Paveway), ATLIS (2nd hand) or Damocles (new) and Phimat. Not sure what ECM pods are available in kits, but Barem and Remora seem likely.
Could always mix and match, of course: Paveway bombs (widely available), TIALD designator (probably the best available 2nd hand), and French ECM (probably the easiest to buy).
Unusual to see missiles at all on a Hunter, although Switzerland & Singapore used Sidewinders.
Hawker P.1109B, with Firestreaks & radar nose:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FHawkerHunterP-1109.jpg&hash=f1659870841d9b863828821f8c8ace837fed13ec)
Supermarine Swift with Fairey Fireflash. Fireflash itself is pretty unusual in it's configuration & was pretty rubbish but gave the RAF some good experience with AAM's until Firestreak came along.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FSupermarineSwiftFireflash.jpg&hash=4cb6f6fe92a04de1bd5b302a8b3175390770465d)
Mine own pics of Firestreak & Fireflash:
Firestreak
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FSTA60272.jpg&hash=683351eea83cb9a74f65c207310436bd8419fbdf)
Fireflash
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FSTA60350.jpg&hash=7f4887b87a07089f5c78e7bf77b855f7aec95bdb)
How about a Phoenix on an F-15.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcomps.fotosearch.com%2Fbigcomps%2FUNW%2FUNW895%2Fu12586325.jpg&hash=ebd3068abcf8da4c51781c20352219accc44e5c7)
Granted it is a test machine.....however it is a little known fact that the F-15 was tested, and capable of carrying the Phoenix missile. And could mount 3 missiles, one centerline and one on each wing usually where the external tanks go. And there lies the problem.....while carrying Phoenix missiles....the F-15 had no place to put fuel tanks.
There had been proposals of a Pheonix-capable F-15 for the USN, equipped with a derivative of the APG-63 for fire control of the missile.
It's easy to imagine that an operational example would have modified conformal fuel tanks capable of mounting Pheonix missiles.
Something you won't see other than on display at an airshow held at NAS Point Mugu, California. They just happened to have a spare ASM-N-2 BAT (SWOD Mk 9 Mod 0) available at the Pacific Missile Test Center and took the time to load it on an A-6 Intruder NG 562 (BuNo 151562) image from Scott Pedersen's page on the Bat Glide Bomb/Guided Missile (http://bathead.com/asmbat.html).
***added image credit and html for the web page***
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on October 03, 2009, 07:59:59 AM
Something you won't see other than on display at an airshow that just happened to have a spare ASM-N-2 BAT (SWOD Mk 9 Mod 0) and an available stores pylon on the display A-6 Intruder.
You actually got me wondering if there could exist a scenario where this combo would have been operationally possible (of course the BAT would have needed to be upgraded with a much better seeker)...... :drink:
Nice find! :thumbsup:
Mossie, your Firestreak pic reminds me of a tale told by an RAF pilot who was stationed somewhere in the Middle East (can't remember where or what aircraft, sorry). He walked out to his aircraft one hot morning, took the safety cover off the nose of a Firestreak, and all the little triangular bits of glass fell out on his feet.... :blink:
Seems the sun was hot enough to melt the glue they were stuck together with....
I dunno, it probably wouldn't hold together at Mach 3 if that was the whole story. Saying that, they weren't at Mach 3 for long!
Quote from: Weaver on October 03, 2009, 09:56:40 AM
Mossie, your Firestreak pic reminds me of a tale told by an RAF pilot who was stationed somewhere in the Middle East (can't remember where or what aircraft, sorry). He walked out to his aircraft one hot morning, took the safety cover off the nose of a Firestreak, and all the little triangular bits of glass fell out on his feet.... :blink:
Seems the sun was hot enough to melt the glue they were stuck together with....
Assembled by British-Leyland with a Lucas sourced seeker, I take it? ;) :wacko:
The Americans had a similar problem in Vietnam with the electrical connectors used in the Phantom falling apart. Can't remember if it was some indiginous bug, the humidity or some kind of airborne bacteria.
Story here-
http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Stories1/001-100/0015_F-15_AIM4/story0015.htm (http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Stories1/001-100/0015_F-15_AIM4/story0015.htm)
Quote from: dy031101 on October 03, 2009, 07:57:38 AM
There had been proposals of a Pheonix-capable F-15 for the USN, equipped with a derivative of the APG-63 for fire control of the missile.
It's easy to imagine that an operational example would have modified conformal fuel tanks capable of mounting Pheonix missiles.
AN/APG-64 radar/fire control plus modified mountings to allow carriage of AIM-54s either on the fuselage or on FASTPACKS plus one under each wing pylon, leaving the fuselage pylon free for further tankage or other stores.
There is also the Serbian Gazelle helicopters that were license built by Soko and rigged up to carry the SA-7 "Grail" missile.
I've mentioned it ages ago, but Red Arrows Hawks were included in the T.1A upgrade (not all the RAF Hawks received this) to enable them to be fitted with Sidewinder. I'm certain I saw a pic years & years ago, but I can't find it. Kind of strange, seeing a display team aircraft armed.
Chipmunk F.1 (not really, guys were having a laugh at Waddington air show)!!!
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FChipmunkwithRedTop.jpg&hash=d1a199287d0838970a26779dad9b74b14948e769)
Quote from: upnorth on October 06, 2009, 07:20:26 AM
There is also the Serbian Gazelle helicopters that were license built by Soko and rigged up to carry the SA-7 "Grail" missile.
They could also carry AT-3
Sagger ATGWs too.
Of course the Zlin 142 interceptor variant might have been pushing things a bit:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe59%2Fcancze%2FBrno%2520air%2520show%25202008%2F2008_0906ciaf080039.jpg&hash=c8b8f7b026614ffdea6e36a58d377e425fe4007a)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe59%2Fcancze%2FBrno%2520air%2520show%25202008%2F2008_0906ciaf080038.jpg&hash=594d2e51bd2099bad629f634cb0598a8bd623431)
Fantastic! Can see it dofighting with the Chippy! ;D ;D ;D
So how long before someone puts a fake Hound Dog on a Cessna 172, d'you think? ;D
Quote from: Weaver on October 07, 2009, 09:44:42 AM
So how long before someone puts a fake Hound Dog on a Cessna 172, d'you think? ;D
Several years ago in the Reader Gallery segment of a Finescale Modeler someone posted a Cessna 172 they'd done up in USN colours with a Phoenix under each wing.
Quote from: Weaver on October 07, 2009, 09:44:42 AM
So how long before someone puts a fake Hound Dog on a Cessna 172, d'you think? ;D
Now I know what to do with those spare 1/144 'Dogs!
Quote from: Mossie on October 06, 2009, 08:01:06 AM
I've mentioned it ages ago, but Red Arrows Hawks were included in the T.1A upgrade (not all the RAF Hawks received this) to enable them to be fitted with Sidewinder. I'm certain I saw a pic years & years ago, but I can't find it. Kind of strange, seeing a display team aircraft armed.
After years of looking, finally found three pics!
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FHawkRedArrowsarmedwithsidewindersgunpod03.jpg&hash=e5b611e232a64f3ae81d8970dd34f3b113ad6ced)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FHawkRedArrowsarmedwithsidewindersgunpod01.jpg&hash=6e60e1429c1b032d988ab464ea7d7cee81c3360c)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FHawkRedArrowsarmedwithsidewindersgunpod02.jpg&hash=f1f171c95658122b13e3e7fda1c5af3f411b2b9b)
Quote from: Mossie on March 15, 2011, 07:49:56 AM
Quote from: Mossie on October 06, 2009, 08:01:06 AM
I've mentioned it ages ago, but Red Arrows Hawks were included in the T.1A upgrade (not all the RAF Hawks received this) to enable them to be fitted with Sidewinder. I'm certain I saw a pic years & years ago, but I can't find it. Kind of strange, seeing a display team aircraft armed.
After years of looking, finally found three pics!
Aaaaah! Take Off Magazine!!! That brings back good memories. :mellow:
Not only did i collect all of "take off" but i only recently finished the tornado kit it came with... ;D :blink:
Lots of unusual combinations over here -
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=66541&highlight=rhodesia&
Proving the SAAF Hunter was RW... :thumbsup:
Quote from: Supertom on March 15, 2011, 11:01:55 AM
Quote from: Mossie on March 15, 2011, 07:49:56 AM
Quote from: Mossie on October 06, 2009, 08:01:06 AM
I've mentioned it ages ago, but Red Arrows Hawks were included in the T.1A upgrade (not all the RAF Hawks received this) to enable them to be fitted with Sidewinder. I'm certain I saw a pic years & years ago, but I can't find it. Kind of strange, seeing a display team aircraft armed.
After years of looking, finally found three pics!
Aaaaah! Take Off Magazine!!! That brings back good memories. :mellow:
Certainly does - that and Warplane. Still use both for referencing from time to time.
Regards,
Greg
Quote from: Roger the Cabin Boy on March 15, 2011, 03:54:47 PM
Lots of unusual combinations over here -
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=66541&highlight=rhodesia&
Proving the SAAF Hunter was RW... :thumbsup:
You mean this photo?
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg116.imageshack.us%2Fimg116%2F8426%2F75eeb580171fb3e2c5d9fa6sv2.jpg&hash=762daeab845ff3e06aedcad91b73f1b23658f6d2)
Looks photoshopped to me, particularly when the photo is titled "ORAFs" - I assume Omani Royal Air Force - and its amongst a lot of other pictures of Omani Hunters. The next posting in the thread suggests they were Rhodesian Hunters - which might make sense as they were upgraded in South Africa to carry Sidewinders and apparently carried South African unlicensed copies of the Sidewinder. They may have carried temporary SAAF markings during the trials.
Otherwise, very interesting thread over there!
Oman is RAFO: Royal Air Force of Oman
ORAF: Old Rhodesian Air Force
http://www.ourstory.com/orafs
Hunter with sidewinder thread, origin of the photos copied over on the Key forum:
http://www.ourstory.com/thread.html?t=305460#330100
IIRC, wasn't the Omani Sidewinder pylon inboard, ahead of the main u/c?
Dutch Seahawk with Sidewinders:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.keypublishing.co.uk%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D149513%26amp%3Bd%3D1168232400&hash=2813e83d01efc227633d0139b8efaeec3528ab38)
Most of the Sidewinder pylons that I have seen pictures of are new pylons further inboard of the usual inboard pylons. Exceptions were several European and Sweedish Hunters that had the launch shoes mounted on the normal outer pylons.
Gondor
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on March 16, 2011, 01:13:00 PM
Oman is RAFO: Royal Air Force of Oman
ORAF: Old Rhodesian Air Force
http://www.ourstory.com/orafs
Hunter with sidewinder thread, origin of the photos copied over on the Key forum:
http://www.ourstory.com/thread.html?t=305460#330100
Thank Jon, for the acronym correction. I was right that it gained the SAAF marking during trials, it seems. Interesting that the Hunter was better than the Mirage III in a dogfight. Obviously the delta planform bled too much energy in a turning fight.
A private web page isn't necessarily the definition taken as 'normal' by any stretch. The Rhodesian Air Force had quite a few acronyms during its existance and ORAF 'Old Rhodesian Air Force' wasn't one of them. This is merely a title for a website, not anything official which can be equally misleading.
Regards,
Mav
Quote from: rickshaw on March 16, 2011, 08:47:58 PM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on March 16, 2011, 01:13:00 PM
Oman is RAFO: Royal Air Force of Oman
ORAF: Old Rhodesian Air Force
http://www.ourstory.com/orafs
Hunter with sidewinder thread, origin of the photos copied over on the Key forum:
http://www.ourstory.com/thread.html?t=305460#330100
Thank Jon, for the acronym correction. I was right that it gained the SAAF marking during trials, it seems. Interesting that the Hunter was better than the Mirage III in a dogfight. Obviously the delta planform bled too much energy in a turning fight.
IIRC, in 1973 an Israeli Mirage chased a Jordanian Hunter (flown by a highly experienced squadron commander) all over the Golan Heights for
eight minutes before getting him, and then only because he made a mistake.
That's how they usually do get got. :(
The victor in battle is usually the one who makes the least number of mistakes.
Quote from: rickshaw on March 17, 2011, 04:46:17 AM
That's how they usually do get got. :(
The victor in battle is usually the one who makes the least number of mistakes.
Or the one who was never seen by the victim in the first place. I recall reading that an analysis of air combat reports showed that something like 75% of victims were unaware of the existance or position of the opposing aircraft until the rounds started hitting. Certainly many of the aces had this "stalking" approach: most of Von Richtofen's kills were against artillery spotting planes which he got by sneaking up on in their blind spot and then blasting them at point blank range without warning. Nothing wrong with that of course (in fact a hatred of arty spotters was what prompted Von R to transfer to air in the first place), but it's not quite the "noble dualling knights of the air" image that Hollywood would like to sell you...
Quote from: Weaver on March 17, 2011, 05:28:32 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on March 17, 2011, 04:46:17 AM
That's how they usually do get got. :(
The victor in battle is usually the one who makes the least number of mistakes.
Or the one who was never seen by the victim in the first place. I recall reading that an analysis of air combat reports showed that something like 75% of victims were unaware of the existance or position of the opposing aircraft until the rounds started hitting. Certainly many of the aces had this "stalking" approach: most of Von Richtofen's kills were against artillery spotting planes which he got by sneaking up on in their blind spot and then blasting them at point blank range without warning. Nothing wrong with that of course (in fact a hatred of arty spotters was what prompted Von R to transfer to air in the first place), but it's not quite the "noble dualling knights of the air" image that Hollywood would like to sell you...
Are you suggesting, sir, that I believe anything Hollywood tells me?
The whole "knights of the air" rubbish grew up out of comparing air combat to the mud and blood of the Western Front by journalists who were looking for some glamour amongst the horrors of industrialised warfare. Its really romanticised claptrap. Remember, no 'chutes and if your plane was hit it was a choice of either jumping or burning. It was also just as brutal and startlingly quick.
In the AWM in Canberra that's brought home with the short movie Peter Jackson did for them on air fighting over the Western Front. With his special effects magic, you're brought right into the middle of the dogfight and what was really surprising was just how quick it all was, with planes whizzing around about and people getting killed and their planes burning every few seconds. He based the film on the reports of one particular late war dogfight between the RFC and the Germans. Really well done. Well worth seeing.
You're right, most victims in air combat never even saw their opponents. They'd be in an advantageous position and a few squirts with their guns and down you'd go! "Beware the Hun in the Sun!" Wasn't coined for nothing.
Quote from: Maverick on March 16, 2011, 11:32:55 PM
A private web page isn't necessarily the definition taken as 'normal' by any stretch. The Rhodesian Air Force had quite a few acronyms during its existance and ORAF 'Old Rhodesian Air Force' wasn't one of them. This is merely a title for a website, not anything official which can be equally misleading.
Regards,
Mav
No one said it was official, if you look closely at the photos you'll see in the upper left corner ORAFs: T. Megentale.
Which means Old Rhodesian Air Force Sods, photos from Tino Megentale.
Quote from: rickshaw on March 17, 2011, 06:47:56 AM
Are you suggesting, sir, that I believe anything Hollywood tells me?
Certainly not ,Sir, I'm suggesting that that is what Hollywood would
like you to believe. The extent to which you care about what Hollywood would like is, of course, entirely up to you.