It all began when I flipped through webpages imagining choices of jet aircraft to be put on hybrid ships (Mr. Burke a.k.a. sequoiaranger a.k.a. Admiral U. Furashita did correctly assessed me as crazy) and smaller fleet carriers.
Then a discovery had me re-thinking a significant portion of my imagination: Wikipedia states that S-3 couldn't fly from Midway class carrier. Further Googling had conflicting claims: some suggesting that Midway and Coral Sea in their final configuration could opearte S-3 while others stating that Midway class can't handle S-3, period.
With this uncertainty I started looking for the next best thing. A-6 Intruder is one- there are the EA-6B, KA-6D, and a proposed ASW version.
Then came A-3 Skywarrior. It has many seperate versions to do many tasks. And with advances in electronics, refinements in aerodynamics, and further development of its engines, perhaps it could be turned into everything a S-3 is but in a package that could takeoff from Midway class and below (British and French carriers)?
So my preliminary imagination is like this:
- Airframe modifications (if necessary) to make installation of ejector seats for the aircrew possible.
- Ejector seats and updated avionics for the aircrew.
- Bomb director system replaced by surveillance radar.
- FLIR under the fuselage.
- Wing pylons rated for bombs, missiles, droptanks, and buddy refuelling packs.
- Rearranged ECM equipment and a MAD boom in the the extreme tail.
- Sonobuoy launchers under the fuselage and sonobuoy receiver.
- Of course the bomb bay would be used to carry torpedoes or even more bombs......
- And perhaps a new pair of engines offering better acceleration and power......
The only problem I can think of is that A-3 is larger than S-3...... smaller fleet carriers might still find the modernised A-3 hard to accommodate (Essex class carriers can take only a reduced detachment)......
We did operate the Whale on the Midway until 87. Here are my photos of an A-3D during recovery on the Midway, plus a photo of one on the deck of the Lexington after she became a museum in Corpus Christi, Texas. I don't know if the Whale flew off of the Blue Ghost but this is how it looks on deck.
Eddie
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I took these during a helo tour from the deck of the Lexington in 96.
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What is the maximum weight that could be handled by the catapults of Midway and Coral Sea?
And what is the maximum weight that could be handled by the catapults of Oriskany?
I mean, modernised WWII carriers did operate bomber versions of A-3 in Vietnam War, right?
The Mdway was refit with the Mk-2 nose tow cat during EISRA and could handle anything in the USN inventory
Here's what the refit looked like from my Cruisebook. We had some Tomcats get "lost" once and they recovered and launched from the Midway, even thought we didn't deploy Tomcats.
http://www.midwaysailor.com/midway1980/eisra86.html
The Oriskany deployed the Whale in 62
http://navysite.de/cv/cv34deploy.htm
Since the A-3 was an attack aircraft. What about modifying the aircraft to incorporate a few cannons in the fuselage? Mounted in the bomb bay much the same way the RAF did with the Canberra or create a new gun nose for the Skywarrior that would hold four or six 20mm cannon. Something for the WHIF artists to take under consideration.
Quote from: philp on August 03, 2008, 12:29:28 PMI am still thinking a B-66 would look good in British wrap around camo. :wub:
Or the wrap around grey/gray scheme as applied to the ANG A-7D late in service.
Hmmm, B-66 with a gun nose. Great idea. Thanks Phil! Too bad there are no affordable B-66 kits in 1/48th scale.
Another idea came to mind thanks to a recent suggestion to modify the B-47 Stratojet with the engines from a B-58 Hustler. Perhaps some brave soul will try this with the B-66 or A-3 airframe to make it look like it has had an engine upgrade.
Be interesting to do a RAAF (or other Canberra/B-57 user) A-3/B-66.
regards,
Greg
Another wild idea for the B-66. How about a KB-66? Using the Italeri kit as your starting point you would add a pair of buddy refueling pods to wing pylons outboard of each engine that way you could fuel up two aircraft at a time. Or alternate plan "B" single hose and drogue system scavenged from the Hasegawa KA-3 Skywarrior and a pair of external fuel tanks mounted on pylons outboard of the wings. A simple to do WHIF with potential to fool you on the first glance.
Jeffry Fontaine
QuoteAnother wild idea for the B-66. How about a KB-66?
Considering there were KA-3's this is not an impossible idea -- Unfortunately to my knowledge the Air Force from the late 1960's if not earlier adopted the flying-boom and slip-way system for refuelling USAF planes. If a flying-boom could be fitted to the underside of the plane, it sounds like it would work.
KJ
Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on November 22, 2008, 06:39:45 PM
QuoteAnother wild idea for the B-66. How about a KB-66?
Considering there were KA-3's this is not an impossible idea -- Unfortunately to my knowledge the Air Force from the late 1960's if not earlier adopted the flying-boom and slip-way system for refuelling USAF planes. If a flying-boom could be fitted to the underside of the plane, it sounds like it would work.
Hi Kendra,
This is thinking outside of the box. As a WHIF it may not necessarily be sporting the stars and bars of the USAF. If you have seen MartG's latest project involving the Italeri B-66 in RAF camouflage and markings it would be an ideal companion to his current finished project and was suggested here to promote the idea and maybe see it built.
During the time that the B-66 was in development and use the USAF employed the flying boom as well as the probe and drogue aerial refueling systems. Several operational aircraft such as the F-84, F-101, and the F-105 were built with both of these features. The F-84G had a boom receptacle in the wing root area and the IFR probe was usually attached to one or both of the wing tanks and it was not always carried or fitted. The F-101 (RF-101) incorporated a retractable IFR probe in the nose of the aircraft in front of the windscreen as well as the flying boom receptacle behind the cockpit along the spine of the aircraft. All F-105D and F-105F/G aircraft were manufactured with the IFR probe mounted in the nose of the aircraft and the flying boom receptacle located adjacent to it.
Jeffry Fontaine,
For foreign Air Forces, a KB-66 would be an excellent idea for a WHIF.
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on November 22, 2008, 04:29:03 PM
Another wild idea for the B-66. How about a KB-66? Using the Italeri kit as your starting point you would add a pair of buddy refueling pods to wing pylons outboard of each engine that way you could fuel up two aircraft at a time. Or alternate plan "B" single hose and drogue system scavenged from the Hasegawa KA-3 Skywarrior and a pair of external fuel tanks mounted on pylons outboard of the wings. A simple to do WHIF with potential to fool you on the first glance.
I converted a 1/72nd scale B-66 into a KA-3 skywarrior tanker about 14 years ago, I still have most of it in my shed. I did it in the US Navy Strike weapons training school markings, as I have a book on this place and saw a KA-3 on one or two of the pages, I was just getting into the whole US Marines/Navy aircraft thing, and kits were still reasonable to buy then. (Do you remember that??)
I put two re fueling pods off a Victor tanker on the wings and painted them bright orange along with the wing tips,as per the real one.
I have the wings and engines in my model bits stash in the house, if I could find all the bits I might have a go at rebuilding it.
Chris.
Quote from: chrisonord on November 23, 2008, 01:30:25 PM
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on November 22, 2008, 04:29:03 PM
Another wild idea for the B-66. How about a KB-66? Using the Italeri kit as your starting point you would add a pair of buddy refueling pods to wing pylons outboard of each engine that way you could fuel up two aircraft at a time. Or alternate plan "B" single hose and drogue system scavenged from the Hasegawa KA-3 Skywarrior and a pair of external fuel tanks mounted on pylons outboard of the wings. A simple to do WHIF with potential to fool you on the first glance.
I converted a 1/72nd scale B-66 into a KA-3 skywarrior tanker about 14 years ago, I still have most of it in my shed. I did it in the US Navy Strike weapons training school markings, as I have a book on this place and saw a KA-3 on one or two of the pages, I was just getting into the whole US Marines/Navy aircraft thing, and kits were still reasonable to buy then. (Do you remember that??)
I put two re fueling pods off a Victor tanker on the wings and painted them bright orange along with the wing tips,as per the real one.
I have the wings and engines in my model bits stash in the house, if I could find all the bits I might have a go at rebuilding it.
Hi Chris,
It would be nice to see you build that model again. I had not considered the Flight Refueling Ltd. IFR pods for the original idea basing it instead on the Douglas D-704 refueling pod due to the fact that Douglas was building both products at the time. But the FR IFR pods would work just as well if not better since they are of much lighter weight and could be used in addition to carrying a pair of drop tanks under the wings to support the tanker role. It was after I had seen MartG's B-66 Destroyer in the finished projects forum board that I was seduced into considering a tanker version of the B-66 since it performed a number of other missions in real life but it was never converted to a tanker like the A-3 Skywarrior.
Turning the "Beautifull" Skywarrior into a cannon armed attck ship would I think require a very major remodeling...how about using a "French" Vatour and adjusting that. ................................just musing................should really get back to work. :thumbsup:
what about the engines? could the KA-3E (my designation for my "Northwest Republic" thread) run GE CF34-10E turbofans in place of the J57s? this would justify me keeping the KA-3 on carrier decks in the 21st Century.
Quote from: ytown2010 on December 24, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
what about the engines? could the KA-3E (my designation for my "Northwest Republic" thread) run GE CF34-10E turbofans in place of the J57s? this would justify me keeping the KA-3 on carrier decks in the 21st Century.
Why not just use tooled up S-3 Vikings? ;D ;D
Quote from: kitbasher on December 25, 2008, 02:16:07 AM
Quote from: ytown2010 on December 24, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
what about the engines? could the KA-3E (my designation for my "Northwest Republic" thread) run GE CF34-10E turbofans in place of the J57s? this would justify me keeping the KA-3 on carrier decks in the 21st Century.
Why not just use tooled up S-3 Vikings? ;D ;D
the S-3 doesn't exist in my alternate universe.
Quote from: kitbasher on December 25, 2008, 02:16:07 AM
Quote from: ytown2010 on December 24, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
what about the engines? could the KA-3E (my designation for my "Northwest Republic" thread) run GE CF34-10E turbofans in place of the J57s? this would justify me keeping the KA-3 on carrier decks in the 21st Century.
Why not just use tooled up S-3 Vikings? ;D ;D
yep change the tail ,slim down the body and wings some nice retrograde engine pods...........................mmm Skywarrior :lol: :o ;D :wacko: :huh: :party:
here is a profile of a KA-3E belonging to Tactical Aerial Refueling Squadron (VAK) 300. this was a collaborative effort between me and Mav. i drew the engine based off of a S-3 engine and did the preliminaries on the aircraft itself. i sent the pictures of the engine and the KA-3E to Mav for the finish work.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi225.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd8%2Fytownpenguin%2FA-3_Ytown_01.jpg&hash=f29d32fd0df4d55d781bf8445c19eef58b54fce3)
and a low-viz:
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I couldn't find the exact thread, but I recall there was some discussion about whether or not the Essex class could operate the Skywarrior. The consensus was that they could, but photographic evidence was in short supply. I found this last night, courtesy of the "Wall Photos" from the National Naval Aviation Museum on Facebook. The carrier in question is the Bon Homme Richard. Also of note is the presence in the photo of F11F Tigers, of which there seem to be few photos on carrier decks.
Very neat photo, Jschmus. I love the way the Whale looks on the "little" Essex deck. As for the F11F, I've seen a number of photos of it on the USS Ranger when my grandfather served on it.
By the way, what are the men on deck spelling out?
Cheers,
Logan
It's kanji, and the characters spell out "Congratulations" to the Japanese Crown Prince Akihito, on the birth of his son, the current Crown Prince Naruhito.
(Further research indicates Naruhito was born in February, 1960, but apparently his birth wasn't formally proclaimed until May.)
Not having a scanner is a problem here.
In the McDonnell Douglas Putnam Vol.1, there are photos of B66 Destroyers involved in engine trials with the P&W TF33 Turbofan and the GE CJ805-3 turbojet and the CJ805-23 aft fan.
Love your idea, and Mavericks art.
If I ever get my hands on an Italeri B-66 will have to do a RAF version. Think Mav did a profile for me a while ago.
Does anyone know under what conditions the tail bumper thingie under the tail of a Skywarrior deploys please? See piccie below for what I mean.
I had thought it came down with the landing gear but I've seen pics of them retracted with the aircraft on the ground. I've NOT found a piccie of them, landing with it retracted though so perhaps it can be raised independently of the gear.
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Quote from: PR19_Kit on October 13, 2013, 07:21:40 AM
Does anyone know under what conditions the tail bumper thingie under the tail of a Skywarrior deploys please? See piccie below for what I mean.
Maybe in a tail heavy situation Kit like no fuel in the tanks (or people in the front)---- I've seen many an airliner at the airport have a strut placed under the tail end before things got un-loaded
I don't think it's a strut Robert, I think it's a tail bumper.
Every single pic I've found of an A-3 on approach has the bumper/strut extended, but some pics taken on the ground has it retracted. I thought originally it was part of the hook assembly but you can see in the pic I posted that it can be extended with the hook retracted.
An idea of mine is to use the parts from the Airfix S -3 Viking and add them to a B-66 including the engines.
The left over parts from the Viking will get a pair of turboprops and be turned into a civvie airliner .
Quote from: PR19_Kit on October 13, 2013, 01:37:13 PM
I don't think it's a strut Robert, I think it's a tail bumper.
Every single pic I've found of an A-3 on approach has the bumper/strut extended, but some pics taken on the ground has it retracted. I thought originally it was part of the hook assembly but you can see in the pic I posted that it can be extended with the hook retracted.
Sorry, didn't explain myself properly. I agree that it's a tail bumper but then when sitting around on the ground/deck empty and was tail heavy as it seems to appear in your pic, it's extended and used to stop the aircraft tilting back. It looks like it has a small wheel too ---
Quote from: McColm on October 14, 2013, 12:47:08 AM
An idea of mine is to use the parts from the Airfix S -3 Viking
Erm!, have a look at reply #17 in this thread ---
Quote from: kitnut617 on October 14, 2013, 07:25:06 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on October 13, 2013, 01:37:13 PM
I don't think it's a strut Robert, I think it's a tail bumper.
Every single pic I've found of an A-3 on approach has the bumper/strut extended, but some pics taken on the ground has it retracted. I thought originally it was part of the hook assembly but you can see in the pic I posted that it can be extended with the hook retracted.
Sorry, didn't explain myself properly. I agree that it's a tail bumper but then when sitting around on the ground/deck empty and was tail heavy as it seems to appear in your pic, it's extended and used to stop the aircraft tilting back. It looks like it has a small wheel too ---
Ahah, gotcha now. Yes, that makes sense, a sort of dual use device then? The Hase kit doesn't have a wheel on the end of the triangular bit, it looks like a tiny arrestor hook actually. I think I'll glue the thing flush then, that version has enough bumps and things sticking out of it already!
Love the pic of the a/c on deck...my favourite carrier era.
Looks forward to seeing more of this build ! Such a cool looking aeroplane....
:cheers:
http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html (http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html)
"The normal parked configuration of the Skywarrior was with the slats extended and the flaps usually down. An extendable tail bumper is provided in the Hasegawa kit but it is normally up since it automatically retracted 15 seconds after touchdown and stayed up until the landing gear was next extended."
Yes, but it doesn't say what it did when the aircraft was on the ground. It's too late now anyway, mine has been modelled with it retracted.
Quote from: tinlail on December 11, 2013, 08:12:31 PM
http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html (http://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2010_09_01_archive.html)
"The normal parked configuration of the Skywarrior was with the slats extended and the flaps usually down. An extendable tail bumper is provided in the Hasegawa kit but it is normally up since it automatically retracted 15 seconds after touchdown and stayed up until the landing gear was next extended."
I would say that the aircraft in Kit's pic has been on the ground for a lot longer than 15 seconds ----- ;D plus everything is the other way around to your description
Cargo/VIP Destroyer
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1080.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fj340%2Fysi_maniac%2FDrawing%2FCargoDestroyer.jpg&hash=6225eed33b08f1ab74d8fd814c11d869efc34d3e) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/CargoDestroyer.jpg.html)
Looks good. But where does the landing gear go? Retracting inwards, into the wings?
Agree the VIP bird does look good, but besides gear placement, the gear would need to be very long to keep the engines off the ground. Real FOD hazard.
I like the layout with the low wings, though. Maybe an pylon-less engine arrangement like on a Boeing 737 would be more practical? Or, even more radical, with the air brake space available and the high stabilizers, this could also end up like a Caravelle with the engines mounted at the rear fuselage (and clear wings and lower landing gear)? :o
I can't find the reference to hand, but Pakistan was to receive several squadrons' worth of B-66s until someone in the US administration changed their mind and sold them B-57s instead.
I'll keep digging in the books.
Quote from: AS.12 on August 12, 2017, 06:49:56 AM
I can't find the reference to hand, but Pakistan was to receive several squadrons' worth of B-66s until someone in the US administration changed their mind and sold them B-57s instead.
I'll keep digging in the books.
Yes please do
AS.12, sounds interesting!!
MAD