What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: dy031101 on June 14, 2008, 10:44:40 PM

Title: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: dy031101 on June 14, 2008, 10:44:40 PM
Although my current topics have more to do with projects in parallel with the MiG-19, I might as well make it a place where everyone interested in MiG-19/J-6 can express themselves.

BSP: Jet Fighters Since 1950 keeps giving me the impression that RB.44 Tay is the best a centrifugal-flow turbojet ever would get...... it powered F9F Panther, F-94 Starfire, and Mystère IV, all subsonic aircraft.

That was until I read about some parallel developments of MiG-19- apparently a single-engined, supersonic aircraft powered by a centrifugal-flow turbojet did exist.  Some says its performance is actually very good; others say it's a disappointment......

I'd sometimes take a liking of transitional items...... between subsonic planes with centrifugal-flow turbojets and supersonic planes with axial-flow turbojets, a supersonic plane with a centrifugal-flow turbojet sounds neat to me.

So first, something to clarify- which one is simpler to build and easier to maintain, centrifugal-flow turbojets or axial-flow turbojets?

I heard that the last of the parallel (to MiG-19) projects that actually flew is the I-370 with a Klimov VK-7 turbojet.  Which of the opinions is correct?  "Very good" or "a disappointment"?

Is there any British project (or any Western project for that matter) that could have benefited from have a centrifugal-flow turbojet like the VK-7?

Response is very much appreciated.







And after reading about the MiG I-370, I started imagining...... what if the Soviets gave the PRC I-370 instead of MiG-19 as the basis for J-6?  What if the centrifugal-flow-turbojet-powered J-6 became the basis of Q-5......?
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6 Thread
Post by: Daryl J. on June 14, 2008, 11:18:21 PM
The MiG-19 is the aircraft I've alway had in mind that would fly as Batman's enemy if Bruce Wayne had provided him with an F4D-1(bat) Skyray replete with necessary bat scallops.   The MiG would of course be in natural metal and could either be the cannon armed or radar nosed, missile equipped interceptor.  The wing fences would be enlarged as would auxiliary intakes and various lumps and barbs.

Quite frankly, the MiG-19 simply looks tough to my eyes.



Daryl J., who has a pair of big Trumpy MiG-19's
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6 Thread
Post by: Weaver on June 15, 2008, 04:25:20 AM
I've always rather liked the SM-12, which was essentially a MiG-19 with much more powerful (axial) engines (can't remember the name - they wern't just uprated RM-9s though) and a sharp-edged, centre-bodied intake which looks remarkably like an early MiG-21 item..... :wacko:

There is a school of thought that says centrifugal turbojets were discarded too soon and could have been profitably developed further, given the severe problems some early axials had. Quite apart from being easier to make with an earlier level of metallurgy, they were also much more tolerant of FOD and turbulent intake flow: look at the path followed by air destined for a Nene and you rapidly stop fretting about any slight kink in the intake ducts..... On the other hand, Sir Stanley Hooker is on the record as saying that the Nene's compressor was as large as such things could go... :huh:
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: jcf on June 16, 2008, 09:39:52 AM
Centrifugal compressors are still used, most often in turbo-prop and turbo-shaft engines and in combination with upstream axial compressors, but a few engines have tandem centrifugal compressors.

Jon
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 22, 2008, 08:57:33 AM
I have seen some images of Pakistan Air Force MiG-19 clones that were fitted with wing tip mounted missile launch rails for Sidewinder (or is it the Russian and Chinese copy).  Has any other air force performed a similar modification their own aircraft?  Or is it just Pakistan?
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: dy031101 on June 22, 2008, 07:35:26 PM
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on June 22, 2008, 08:57:33 AM
I have seen some images of Pakistan Air Force MiG-19 clones that were fitted with wing tip mounted missile launch rails for Sidewinder (or is it the Russian and Chinese copy).

I did see an image of Q-5 armed with wingtip PL-7......





Quick question: the underwing external fuel tanks used by MiG-19 and Q-5...... they are jettisonable, right?
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 22, 2008, 10:18:44 PM
Quote from: dy031101 on June 22, 2008, 07:35:26 PMQuick question: the underwing external fuel tanks used by MiG-19 and Q-5...... they are jettisonable, right?
Yes, I beleive they are but not sure if they jettison with the pylon integral with the tank or just the tank when that action is taken. 
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: comrade harps on June 24, 2008, 05:21:10 AM
I've never seen a 1:72 plastic Q-5, but if I did I'd snap it up and make it Soviet, late 50s and early 60s, because there'sn nothing there really that couldn't have been made by the Ruskies back then. It just took the Chinese a few more deacades.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: r16 on June 25, 2008, 01:12:30 AM
fantan with a radar and raised cockpit ; a serious what if by western intelligence that was believed to be in service in naval units . I have never seen an image of it .Does anyone here have one ?
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Geoff on June 25, 2008, 03:08:34 AM
There was a development aircraft with a radar nose built in conjunction with an Italian company.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Radish on June 25, 2008, 03:31:45 AM
The only A-5 Fantan kit I know of is the AA kit in 1/48th. It's quite basic but relatively cheap, and the decals are a total joke.
However, I've got one and it'll be a real Gloss White one of the Chinese Navy, appearing at Telford this year on IPMS Stafford's table.
If I could get hold of another, I'd really fancy a Pakistani one.
I believe Trumpeter have plans for one in 1/72nd and I'll buy several if that's the case.
I've a couple of Bilek MiG-19s, but haven't built them yet, so can't comment on them at all.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Weaver on June 25, 2008, 04:12:58 AM
Quote from: r16 on June 25, 2008, 01:12:30 AM
fantan with a radar and raised cockpit ; a serious what if by western intelligence that was believed to be in service in naval units . I have never seen an image of it .Does anyone here have one ?

Think I've got a line drawing of it somewhere at home in an old reference book - it's a big, drooped radome, a bit like a gunless Phantom, IIRC.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Weaver on June 25, 2008, 04:16:52 AM
Quote from: Geoff on June 25, 2008, 03:08:34 AM
There was a development aircraft with a radar nose built in conjunction with an Italian company.

I recall an "A-5 demystified" type article that said this wasn't so, at least in the form implied. There were prototype attack aircraft built with Italian and British (?) avionics fits, but the nose profile was pretty standard and the only radars involved were small ranging sets - possibly the FIAR Pointer?

In the end, they didn't mass-produce either because they were concerned about cost and independence, but they remained (unbought) export options.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: dy031101 on June 25, 2008, 02:47:23 PM
So the wing tanks are jettisonable...... oh well, because I was thinking if something like Sargeant Fletcher's LITE could be created so that the fuselage hardpoints could be freed up, but targetting sensors probably aren't as replacible as mere fuel tanks......



Quote from: Weaver on June 25, 2008, 04:12:58 AM
Think I've got a line drawing of it somewhere at home in an old reference book - it's a big, drooped radome, a bit like a gunless Phantom, IIRC.

This description most likely fits a torpedo bomber version of Q-5 developed for the PLAN.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: r16 on June 25, 2008, 11:59:03 PM
a Turkish magazine article in 1978 said about 700 hundred F-9 aircraft was in service in addition to an unknown number in Air Force units .I bought the magazine in about 1986 and it feeds my curosity about this aircraft ever since then .
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Deino on June 26, 2008, 06:58:41 AM
There were alltogether - as far as I know - five different types of Q-5 fitted with a radar !

1. a testbed of the early prototypes/pre-serials (no. 15 ??) fitted with a radar originally planned for the serial version.
2. the first version of the naval bird with a very strange nose !
3. the second version of the naval bomber Q-5B ...
4. the modernised version called A-5M with the avionics of the Italian AMX
5. a just only recently discovered late model with the no. 144 (status unknown)

Deino
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Deino on June 26, 2008, 07:00:41 AM
2.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Deino on June 26, 2008, 07:06:05 AM
3.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Deino on June 26, 2008, 07:08:07 AM
4. + 5.  Cheers, Deino    :drink:
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Deino on June 26, 2008, 07:12:03 AM
Regarding a kit in 1/72 ... there is (or was) one from "Alliance" in resin !

For a review: http://www.flugzeugforum.de/forum/showthread.php?t=3828&highlight=Q-5

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=ALL72013

Deino
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Geoff on June 26, 2008, 11:09:30 AM
Cheers Deino; It was the A5M I was thinking of.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: jcf on June 26, 2008, 01:23:19 PM
Quote from: dy031101 on June 14, 2008, 10:44:40 PM

I heard that the last of the parallel (to MiG-19) projects that actually flew is the I-370 with a Klimov VK-7 turbojet.  Which of the opinions is correct?  "Very good" or "a disappointment"?


According to "MiG: Fifty Years of Secret Aircraft Design" one of the test pilots found the I-370 to be pleasant to fly and that it reached Mach 1.334, however even after being fitted with a 57 degree swept wing the aircraft never reached its designed speed. So it was both "very good" and "a disappointment".  Which describes a lot of prototypes over the years. ;D

BTW the Klimov VK-7 was Nene-based and had a two-stage centrifugal compressor.

Jon
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 26, 2008, 02:57:46 PM
Image number two looks like a kit bash between an A-4 Skyhawk nose and the Q-5. 
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Sentinel Chicken on June 26, 2008, 03:09:52 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the first Q-5B with the weird drooped nose was to be a jet torpedo bomber!
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Deino on June 26, 2008, 03:16:05 PM
Quote from: Sentinel Chicken on June 26, 2008, 03:09:52 PM
If I'm not mistaken, the first Q-5B with the weird drooped nose was to be a jet torpedo bomber!

Yep ... !!   ;D
Title: Deino, do you have the "Q-5 with PL-7s right on the wingtips" photo?
Post by: dy031101 on June 26, 2008, 05:03:28 PM
I feel that Aircraft 144 actually looks better than A-5M......

Oh and, Deino, do you have the "Q-5 with wingtip PL-7s" photo?  Not under the wingtips like Pakistani F-6 or other Q-5/A-5, but right on the wingtips like AMX?

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on June 26, 2008, 01:23:19 PM
BTW the Klimov VK-7 was Nene-based and had a two-stage centrifugal compressor.

What's the difference between VK-7F and Tay such that VK-7F could actually propel I-370 to supersonic speed?

Or does it have more to do with the aircraft that carried those two engines respectively?
Title: Re: Deino, do you have the "Q-5 with PL-7s right on the wingtips" photo?
Post by: Deino on June 26, 2008, 09:52:19 PM
Quote from: dy031101 on June 26, 2008, 05:03:28 PM
I feel that Aircraft 144 actually looks better than A-5M......

Oh and, Deino, do you have the "Q-5 with wingtip PL-7s" photo?  Not under the wingtips like Pakistani F-6 or other Q-5/A-5, but right on the wingtips like AMX?



No ! Do You have ... ??? I would be interested very much !

Deino
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: upnorth on June 26, 2008, 10:55:38 PM
For anyone interested, here's something of a walkaround I did of a rather neglected MiG-19 a year or so ago.

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/kevan_vogler/mig-19s/
Title: Re: Deino, do you have the "Q-5 with PL-7s right on the wingtips" photo?
Post by: jcf on June 26, 2008, 11:23:24 PM
Quote from: dy031101 on June 26, 2008, 05:03:28 PM


What's the difference between VK-7F and Tay such that VK-7F could actually propel I-370 to supersonic speed?

Or does it have more to do with the aircraft that carried those two engines respectively?

Rolls-Royce RB.44 Tay:
Single-stage centrifugal compressor; 2,835kp (6,250 lb) thrust

Klimov VK-7:
Two-stage centrifugal compressor; 4,200kp (9,261 lb) thrust dry - 6,270kp (13,825 lb) thrust with afterburner

License built Hispano-Suiza and Pratt & Whitney versions of the Tay were of similar performance, the afterburner equipped P & W J48 variants produced less power than the VK-7 without afterburner.

As to the other question, the I-370 does appear to be somewhat slicker than the Grumman and Lockheed aircraft that used the J48.

Jon
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Archibald on June 27, 2008, 02:03:21 AM
Thinking about Spinners thread... A-5C were cannon-fodders for the F-22 in
Novalogic F-22 series  ;D 
I killed them zilions of times...
Title: Re: Deino, do you have the "Q-5 with PL-7s right on the wingtips" photo?
Post by: dy031101 on July 03, 2008, 12:00:24 AM
Damn...... I should have saved the picture when China Defense.com Forum still had it......

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on June 26, 2008, 11:23:24 PM
As to the other question, the I-370 does appear to be somewhat slicker than the Grumman and Lockheed aircraft that used the J48.

Actually it would appear that Tay can propel Dassault Mystère to transonic speed...... okay, I'm getting off-topic now.
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5 Thread
Post by: Deino on August 14, 2008, 01:37:56 AM
Here's a new proposal for an update / conversion kit to older Q-5 versions including a KLJ-7 radar + AAM's !

Deino
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: dy031101 on February 10, 2009, 04:49:06 PM
Today's messing around with blanks got me looking a bit more at the I-370......

According to this site (http://www.aviastar.org/air/russia/mig_i-370.php), the I-370 has three variants: I-1, powered by VK-7; I-2, with quarter-chord sweepback increased from 55 to 57 degrees, and I-3, powered by the more-powerful VK-3......

According to the line drawings from this site (http://www.suchoj.com/andere/index.htm?http://www.suchoj.com/andere/I-1/home.shtml), the I-1 and the I-2 seem to inherit from the MiG-15/17 the armament scheme of one 37mm and two 23mm cannons below the nose...... the line drawing of I-3, found at VAR Aviation drawing site (http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw2/i3u.html), has wing root cannons of the MiG-19.

When was the I-3 rolled out?  I was trying to combine the forward fuselage of a Q-5 with the rest of the I-3, but I wonder if earlier prototypes would fit better with the timeframe of the introduction of Shenyang J-6 (IIRC, liscence agreement was made in 1958; the I-1 was rolled out in 1955).
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and parallel develpments of MiG-19
Post by: dy031101 on February 11, 2009, 08:23:24 AM
As it turns out...... the I-3 line drawing that I got is in fact that of the I-3U, also designated I-420 (the I-3 is also designated I-380).

Can I safely assume that the I-3U is a further evolution of the I-3, with a centrifugal-flow turbojet like that of the I-3?

EDIT: after biting the bullet and buying the SSP book, it would appear that the VK-3 as used by the I-3/I-3U is an axial-flow turbojet......
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6 Thread
Post by: dy031101 on March 01, 2009, 02:14:31 AM
Quote from: Weaver on June 15, 2008, 04:25:20 AM
I've always rather liked the SM-12, which was essentially a MiG-19 with much more powerful (axial) engines (can't remember the name - they wern't just uprated RM-9s though) and a sharp-edged, centre-bodied intake which looks remarkably like an early MiG-21 item..... :wacko:

Flipping through the SPP book a few minutes ago got me thinking...... what would it have looked like if Shenyang (the concept began there before being transfered to Nanchang), instead of redesigning the forward fuselage, did something like the SM-12, using the intake centrebody to house a nav-attack system Like the Su-17?  :wacko:
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: GTX on May 09, 2009, 01:57:31 PM
A simple thought - given they were contemporaries, I wonder how a MiG-19 would look in a F-100 Vietnam scheme such as below?

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jdwetterling.com%2FF-100%2520by%2520Joe%2520V.jpg&hash=9158faca9e30557b37e967ff1e313d30f7e67315)

Regards,

Greg
Title: VTOL-capable and Souped-up
Post by: dy031101 on September 13, 2010, 10:36:33 PM
This is a Soviet MiG in Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3.

The forward fuselage easily reminds me of the MiG-19- with that in mind, how could it have been put into practice?  I suppose the idea can be like the one behind the Bell D-188, except this one would have vectorable engine(s) in the central fuselage for both takeoff and cruise, and outboard engines for dedicated cruise and supersonic combat performance.

Given their extensive experience with the J-6/MiG-19, perhaps the PRC's military could even be the operator or creator of this what-if?  Given where the development of the J-7 actually began (at Shengyang before being transfered to Chengdu some time later), perhaps the evolved J-6 would even have absorbed some technology from the J-7......
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: GTX on October 16, 2010, 01:51:04 PM
Random idea moment:  MiG-19K Carrier based fighter.

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: Daryl J. on October 16, 2010, 01:57:03 PM
Premise:  MiG-19 continues in development.    Swing wings added.   
Title: Further thinking on tailless J-6 in Reply #36
Post by: dy031101 on October 24, 2010, 10:39:49 PM
RATOBAR carrier or land-based fighter?  Installing a rocket engine in the central fuselage for takeoff and/or high-altitude performance?  Although in that case the nose intake would be rendered unnecessary.

Ah, forgot this one: the tilting-nacelles of the BAe P.103...... potentially how straightforward is the idea compared to designing an engine with vectorable nozzles?
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 07, 2019, 07:05:29 AM
Alter SM-12

(https://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/alter_sm12.jpeg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/alter_sm12.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 15, 2019, 10:01:53 AM
More soviet beauties around MiG-19 and MiG-21

(https://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/MiG21_SM12.jpeg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/MiG21_SM12.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on August 04, 2019, 05:27:51 PM
What if Fantan treatement

(https://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/FantanTreatement.jpeg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/FantanTreatement.jpeg.html)
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 23, 2022, 07:32:01 PM
This time RW. Evolution of MiG-19.

Left column, from top.
MiG-17F
I-370 (between MiG-17 and MiG-19)
MiG-19P
SM-12 (between MiG-19 and MiG-21)

Right column: original drawings from MiG OKB

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MiG_I370_SM12.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/a8236410-d60c-47d3-bcc2-8086ba8d505d)
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: NARSES2 on January 24, 2022, 06:13:50 AM
That SM-12 is attractive 
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 24, 2022, 09:37:36 AM
 :lol:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/883/40740919064_8c77861d9f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2558RR3)
1:72 MiG-19bis (NATO ASCC code: "Farmer F"); aircraft "07 Blue" of the 180th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment, Soviet Anti-Air Defence (Protivovozdushnaya Oborona Strany, PVO); Veshchevo AB (Leningrad Oblast), 1962 (Whif/Mastercraft kit conversion) (https://flic.kr/p/2558RR3) by Dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/), on Flickr
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 24, 2022, 03:56:15 PM
Very nice alter SM-12.  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :wub: :wub: :wub:
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 25, 2023, 10:10:35 PM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MiG-19-var.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MiG-19-var.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 04, 2024, 06:45:44 PM
T-tail Farmer

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MiG-19-var-tt.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MiG-19-var-tt.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: NARSES2 on January 05, 2024, 06:06:47 AM
Bottom one is very neat  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 05, 2024, 05:02:56 PM
Thanks! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: JerrySyameimaru on October 22, 2024, 12:22:48 PM
(https://s2.loli.net/2024/10/23/xWHDd51IpVoZUFA.png)
(https://s2.loli.net/2024/10/23/3kVrxMqTwAUhnbd.png)
Inspired by MiG-SK made by Dizzyfugu The MiG-SK, the first Soviet, carrier-capable CTOL aircraft (https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=42385.0)
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: Dizzyfugu on October 22, 2024, 11:55:24 PM
I take that as a nice tribute.  ;D
Title: Re: MiG-19/J-6/Q-5, and I-370 (parallel develpment)
Post by: NARSES2 on October 23, 2024, 05:55:07 AM
They look neat  :thumbsup: