I'm watching the evening news at the moment, and the lead story was about Myanmar's refusal to allow foreign aid in ot typhoon victims. Apparently the UN are considering sending the aid regardless of the Myanmar dictatorship's refusal. The story opened up some interesting whif possibilities...
USAF F-16s and F-15s carrying AMRAAM, Sidewinder and HARM escorting airdrop C-130s into Myanmar airspace painted white? light blue? red crosses? light blue crosses on white?
I think it would send quite a message to say 'We are coming in with supplies to save your people. We have no intentions beyond that, allow our flights to operate....or else"
So without political commentary, how would you paint and equip the air arm of Operation Angel?
How about bright silver with the symbology a big hand shooting the bird for the Americans and the Churchhill veversed v for the Brits. :wacko: ;D They probably wouldn't need very many escorts, how big an air force or aaa capability can Burma have? :huh:
Quote from: sotoolslinger on May 09, 2008, 04:27:56 PM
How about bright silver with the symbology a big hand shooting the bird for the Americans and the Churchhill veversed v for the Brits. :wacko: ;D They probably wouldn't need very many escorts, how big an air force or aaa capability can Burma have? :huh:
Well according to the fine folks at wikipedia, it's not the best equipped in the world, but not exactly the kind of airspace to send unprotected transports into either if the government threatens action against them. At least 12 MiG 29s and a modern air defence network apparently....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar_Air_Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myanmar_Air_Force)
Who woulda thought, the folk live in huts but the gov't owns Mig 29's. I wonder if the airfields survived the cyclone?
Sotool, it's an unfortunate situation that most countries that have desperately poor living conditions for their populace, have a standing army (frequently well fed), an air force of some description and if they're anywhere near the sea, a navy.
Whilst I can feel for the ordinary people involved in these situations, I find it gallling that these nations expect the West to give them aid and yet still have the sort of military hardware that is obviously costing some fairly substantial change.
Regards,
Mav
Alright fellas, keep it light. I just thought it would be interesting to see some military iron in colors to enforce a humanitarian action. Any ideas? Tornado EF.3 with a UN blue tail?
Well heck it's hard to keep it light in a situation like this but has anyone actually thought about using the Peace symbol as an aircraft marking? Does anyone know the backstory on the standard hippie peace symbol . Is it universal or does it mean something offensive in other cultures? If you want to keep it real light how about pink airplanes with big :smiley: symbols. :party:
QuoteDoes anyone know the backstory on the standard hippie peace symbol . Is it universal or does it mean something offensive in other cultures?
See here: http://www.peacesymbol.com/ for the background.
Regards,
Greg
hows about white for the UN airlifters and for the jets, maybe stripes on the wings (like D-Day "invasion" stripes)? white and blue or white and black?
I still like the peace symbol although I'm not sure it would translate to Burma. Isn't white the color of death in Asian cultures?
I'll venture dangerously close to politics by saying that I dont understand why invading a generic middle eastern country to supposedly give the people a better life is OK, but not a country that actively denies help and aid to its people after a major natural disaster. If something doenst change in the nest few days if not hours there could be hundreds fo thousands of lives lost.
Oh well...enough of that business or I'll end up having to lock this. Move along, nothing to see here.
Back on topic:
I do love the idea of UN color invasion stripes! good one!
The peace sign soundsa bit too hippie to me. I like the idea of a pale blue cross on a white aircraft, though I dont know if that would raise objections from aid agencies or wold have negative religous connotations in the region. After all this brainstorm session is built around helping people, even if that means using force to defend aid shipments, it is not about war with Burma.
Well, using aircraft (helos, transports or fighters) in the service of UN is nothing new. Actually it's an ongoing thing.
Here's an example of how markings been applied to fighters, namely the Swedish J29 Tunnan in Congo (1961):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29c_web1.gif&hash=5ed95f60b7818538cfae28a95452984a88671543)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29_4stmark_web.JPG&hash=faca37234dd1b6896e6c71897b0839f4a4ce9bc2)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Frote_plattan_web.JPG&hash=932e471298f295ad44b602715de9f7d277f6acff)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29bf22_1web.JPG&hash=f3520f2178934ab16cb004e445b04e6c43f13adc)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29b_webkamo.JPG&hash=9b0ada27b7b2b44943c39f3763f39477ceef448f)
And F-86 from Imperial Iranian Air Force, also in Congo:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Firan_plattan2_web.JPG&hash=7f3ea094cb11c0f03186c06c8b27f77407886f71)
ISTR my trusty Eurofighter in TFX had a UN symbol on the tail... but I suspect that doesn't show up well at a distance. Allthough concise, something has to be better than "UN";- un-what? ;-)
Let's keep this thread on track and watch out language as some youngsters visit this site.
Now back on topic:
I like the idea of blue and white D-Day stripes. Maybe the U.N. symbol in blue on a white disk too.
Any other thoughts?
Brian da Basher
A question comes to mind with the whole 'UN' markings thing. Why white? If it's for hi-viz surely dayglo yellow or orange would be more noticeable (& quite a bit less bland if'n ya ask me!)
Regards,
Mav
Best guess is white is not only high-viz but also denotes neutrality.
Brian da Basher
Quote from: Amphion on May 10, 2008, 02:12:21 AM
Well, using aircraft (helos, transports or fighters) in the service of UN is nothing new. Actually it's an ongoing thing.
Here's an example of how markings been applied to fighters, namely the Swedish J29 Tunnan in Congo (1961):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29c_web1.gif&hash=5ed95f60b7818538cfae28a95452984a88671543)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29_4stmark_web.JPG&hash=faca37234dd1b6896e6c71897b0839f4a4ce9bc2)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Frote_plattan_web.JPG&hash=932e471298f295ad44b602715de9f7d277f6acff)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29bf22_1web.JPG&hash=f3520f2178934ab16cb004e445b04e6c43f13adc)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Fj29b_webkamo.JPG&hash=9b0ada27b7b2b44943c39f3763f39477ceef448f)
And F-86 from Imperial Iranian Air Force, also in Congo:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedlem.spray.se%2Fsuperswede%2FF22%2Firan_plattan2_web.JPG&hash=7f3ea094cb11c0f03186c06c8b27f77407886f71)
I knew about the the J29's and Indian Canberras in UN markings over the congo, the Iranian F-86's are news to me thou. Any one else have combat hardware in that op?
If we are careful with the politics this can be a great thread. An idea that I have been toying with for a long time is the concept of an entire force dedicated to things like this. The back story would be that Canada (insert waving flag here) decides to get back to a strictly peacekeeping role, but goes all out to ensure that it is done properly. The force would be equipped for very rapid initial reaction, and also be backed up with a larger force which would move in once an area has been secured. Transport aircraft would be fast and have STOL capability, and aircraft carriers would be light, fast, and provide an array of aircraft for things like ground support and resupply. A tracked amphibious vehicle would be developed which could be air-dropped and would be a modular design which could serve various roles; mobile water purification unit, medical, communications, etc.
Good idea Rattus Rattus, might I suggest some light prop or turboprop transports with v/stol capability for getting into devastated areas. Along the line of Ospreys only smaller and that work. ;D
Quote from: The Rat on May 11, 2008, 08:20:43 AM
If we are careful with the politics this can be a great thread. An idea that I have been toying with for a long time is the concept of an entire force dedicated to things like this. The back story would be that Canada (insert waving flag here) decides to get back to a strictly peacekeeping role, but goes all out to ensure that it is done properly. The force would be equipped for very rapid initial reaction, and also be backed up with a larger force which would move in once an area has been secured. Transport aircraft would be fast and have STOL capability, and aircraft carriers would be light, fast, and provide an array of aircraft for things like ground support and resupply. A tracked amphibious vehicle would be developed which could be air-dropped and would be a modular design which could serve various roles; mobile water purification unit, medical, communications, etc.
And the very best HUMINT in the world (taking out dictators/warlords is only half the work). Of course it'd be harder to represent it with scaled model kits. ;D
Why send aircraft? Send in UAV's with leaflets to tell the people to gather at locations and then use the same UAV's to drop underwing droptank like stores of MRE's. (Or would that be cruel?) If a single UAV can carry a bunch of Hellfire's why not dehydrated food?
At anyrate, UAV's would stand a much better chance of surviving. They do in actual combat areas.
Gary,
Food distribution is a bit more than dropping food. Without personnel on the ground to organise, it would be pandemonium. Watch any news program where there are crowds & food & even with personnel there it can be a tense experience. Without those personnel, the strongest would be fed and more than likely hoard the food supplied and those weaker (sick, elderly or children) would simply go without.
Regards,
Mav
Where is INTERNATIONAL RESCUE when you really need them?
Hmmmmm....Perhaps have the crews add "nose art" to their C-130s, such as THUNDERBIRD 2, etc.... :mellow:
Quote from: The Rat on May 11, 2008, 08:20:43 AM
If we are careful with the politics this can be a great thread. An idea that I have been toying with for a long time is the concept of an entire force dedicated to things like this. The back story would be that Canada (insert waving flag here) decides to get back to a strictly peacekeeping role, but goes all out to ensure that it is done properly. The force would be equipped for very rapid initial reaction, and also be backed up with a larger force which would move in once an area has been secured. Transport aircraft would be fast and have STOL capability, and aircraft carriers would be light, fast, and provide an array of aircraft for things like ground support and resupply. A tracked amphibious vehicle would be developed which could be air-dropped and would be a modular design which could serve various roles; mobile water purification unit, medical, communications, etc.
I had a kinda related idea for basing converted container-ship helo carriers at strategic locations so that they could provide (strictly non-military) disaster relief. They'd use whatever helos were surplus and/or cheap and or supportable in their base area, so for instance, the Glaveston one (Carribean theatre) would use "donated" Huey's from AMARC, whilst the Capetown one (S.Africa theatre) would use Pumas (not cheap, but locally supportable). The ships wouldn't need all the military kit that made things like SCADS/Arapaho unfeasible, and they'd be "permanently converted", not kits waiting to be used. They'd actually be rather like the
RFA Argus:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.operations.mod.uk%2Ftelic%2Fimages%2Fops%2Fargus.jpg&hash=ce80910e89242e101ef139c7449606f9ea182211)
Helicopters are useful, but inefficient at moving large amounts of equipment. A well deck and some LCACs would help in that regard.
Quote from: Maverick on May 11, 2008, 05:00:17 PM
Gary,
Food distribution is a bit more than dropping food. Without personnel on the ground to organise, it would be pandemonium. Watch any news program where there are crowds & food & even with personnel there it can be a tense experience. Without those personnel, the strongest would be fed and more than likely hoard the food supplied and those weaker (sick, elderly or children) would simply go without.
Regards,
Mav
I agree totally, however if it's a choice between having some distribution verses a shooting war to deliver aid... And UN Aid has enede up in the control of warlords in the past, even with the distribution workers and soldiers. I guess I look at it from the side of not putting our people in harms way and allowing a country to maintain its sovreigntry.
I think a robotic method would be preferable though less effective and if the buggers are stealthy enough to evade being shot down, good on ya. I think a clearly marked UN UAV raining freeze dried food in a regular rain would be the safest for all parties when delivering to hostile nations in need.
Now deck out a few C-17s in bright green with red trim and International rescue on the side. That would be awesome for delivering to countries that are willing to accept aid. Geeze, I think I need to draw this.
anyone know the backstory on the standard hippie peace symbol .
It comes from the old CND badge of the late 50's early 60's.
Quote from: Dork the kit slayer on May 12, 2008, 01:57:04 PM
anyone know the backstory on the standard hippie peace symbol .
It comes from the old CND badge of the late 50's early 60's.
The "chickens footprint" was designed by Gerald Holtom and combines highly stylised representations of the semaphore signals for N and D.
Quote from: Hobbes on May 12, 2008, 09:10:49 AM
Helicopters are useful, but inefficient at moving large amounts of equipment. A well deck and some LCACs would help in that regard.
Agreed, but that makes the ships new-builds, rather than converted container ships. Start adding the zeroes......
Hey Mav
Thanks for not treating me like stoopid head. I appreciate your insight and I think you make a heck of a good point.
But...
How about them C-17's in Thunderbird 2 colours! (LOL)
Hey, in the paper today, the aid has started to arrive in Mirrimar. Yea! Hopefully all will end up ok in the end. Hey, I can at least hope can't I ? :lol:
Quote from: Gary on May 13, 2008, 03:16:27 PM
Hey Mav
Thanks for not treating me like stoopid head. I appreciate your insight and I think you make a heck of a good point.
But...
How about them C-17's in Thunderbird 2 colours! (LOL)
Hey, in the paper today, the aid has started to arrive in Mirrimar. Yea! Hopefully all will end up ok in the end. Hey, I can at least hope can't I ? :lol:
Yes, but what would they use for Thunderbird 1 or Thunderbird 3? :huh:
As for aircraft colours?
WHITE everytime, with all the weathering that's possible.
I did a UN-tasked Irish Mick-17 Frisky in RED (they'd run out of white!) and it was rumoured that some of the Mick-17s were also a "mixture" of red/white...checks, stripes, dots and mixed paint, ie PINK.
*******content that could be interpreted as politics or off topic has been removed in an attempt to keep this thread alive. If this fails, the next step will be complete removal******
Now that I have your attention.
Keep in mind that the best way of getting your political comments to your targeted audience is by correspondence through the forum PRIVATE MESSAGE link or EMAIL to the person you wish to irritate or congratulate.
Quote from: The Rat on May 11, 2008, 08:20:43 AMA tracked amphibious vehicle would be developed which could be air-dropped and would be a modular design which could serve various roles; mobile water purification unit, medical, communications, etc.
There is a tracked amphibious all-terrain vehicle currently in production and in use by many nations. The Hagglunds BV-206 (see attached image) and the many variants based on this design, all of which are light weight, air transportable and amphibious. The only problem is the small size of the vehicle which limits the cargo carrying capacity to what can be carried in the vehicle or towed behind it.
Quote from: The Rat on May 11, 2008, 08:20:43 AM
A tracked amphibious vehicle would be developed which could be air-dropped and would be a modular design which could serve various roles; mobile water purification unit, medical, communications, etc.
When you mentioned "air-dropped" I couldn't help to think about the Russian-made BMD (I'm not exactly sure how amphibious the series is, though). Or maybe incorporation of Russian airdrop techniques and technology into the operational doctrine would suffice?
Quote from: dy031101 on May 20, 2008, 09:02:25 AMWhen you mentioned "air-dropped" I couldn't help to think about the Russian-made BMD (I'm not exactly sure how amphibious the series is, though). Or maybe incorporation of Russian airdrop techniques and technology into the operational doctrine would suffice?
The BMD series of vehicles is amphibious in addition to being designed for airborne operations.
The only limitation on the aerial delivery of material and equipment is the load capacity of the aircraft and the weight limitations of the parachutes that are needed to successfully carry the material or equipment from the aircraft and allow it to land safely on the ground. With that being said almost anything can be delivered by parachute as long as it will fit inside the aircraft and does not exceed the weight limits. The success of aerial delivery can be even better if LAPES (Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System) or LVADS (Low Velocity Airdrop Delivery System) is used. LAPES is a method of aerial delivery which required the delivery aircraft to fly at very low altitude (in effect, wheels on or just above the ground) eject the palletized cargo from the rear of the aircraft by means of extraction parachutes which then allow the palletized cargo to decelerate after skidding across the ground for a short distance. The results of this method of delivery can be quite spectactular when large platforms are used or the load is quite heavy. This was the preferred method of delivery for the M551 Sheridan in lieu of an actual aerial delivery by parchute since the odds of complete vehicle destruction were less with the LAPES, not to say that mishaps did occur but the success rate was much better and the vehicle was able to drive away after the event.
LAPES at this link: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/lapes.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/lapes.htm)
LVADS at this link: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/500-lvad.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/500-lvad.htm)
For further research on past, current and future aerial delivery methods and air drop systems go to this link: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/airdrop.htm (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/systems/airdrop.htm)
The attached image depicts an aerial delivery platform that is rigged for LAPES. The model was built by Paul Stoner.
I think Lemonjellos sweet Osprey gunship painted in UN or some other non offensive or high vis colors would be ideal for this. Cargo capacity , airdroppable pallets and the ability to defend itself. :wacko:
Whilst I agree that the Osprey would be a good option, an armed variant wouldn't in my opinion. The cargo bay would be obstructed by the weapons, their associated equipment and ammunition. Added to that, a 'gunship' type aircraft hasn't really got any self-defence ability, given it's mode of weapon aiming & general design.
A stock cargo hauling V-22 would do the job well though, providing you added some miniguns or Gecals for self defence. One would of course hope that the aircraft wouldn't need that particular ability thugh.
Regards,
Mav
Quote from: dragon on May 14, 2008, 10:31:53 PM
Yes, but what would they use for Thunderbird 1 or Thunderbird 3? :huh:
TB1 has to be a Lightning, surely?
If I have to explain the joke it's not funny >:( Imagine the gunship showing up with all the weapons and ammo with only enough room for a couple of MRE's as supplies :blink: See it's a funny joke. :angry: HA HA :banghead: :banghead:
My apologies Sotool,
I rarely if ever see the humourous side of issues like this, hence my reply.
Regards,
Mav
You know... the whole idea of an International Rescue Force is kind of a great idea. But organized in such a way that the UN wouldn't be involved whatsoever. You could have the the world's countries pay an insurance type premium either in cash or equipment/supplies and a single governing body running the show, free of political interference. How that would come about I simply don't know. But so far I've seen some ships, tracked and wheeled vehicles and we've talked airplanes. I think a big trick here would be to remember that this is a rescue force so expensive defense requirements such as advanced radar jamming avionics would not be needed. Simple off the shelf things kept in reasonable working order.
Perhaps every nation has to put in 1:1000th of their GNP (I don't know) and there are say 5 sorta central locations around the globe. If a country resists humanitarian aid then you call on their military supplier nation to put pressure on them to let the aid flow. If that doesn't work, perhaps simple drones with off the shelf radio gear dropping what they can.
I can imagine older C-130's in bright yellow and red paint and smaller transport planes to ship gear and return injured people for medical treatment. Refit a few older tankers or container ships to be able to handle some Russian made heavy lift choppers in similar paint. Also built in cranes able to off load containers on their own. Some of those honken big hovercraft to move supplies in when a place doesn't have docks. Those tracked doo-dads and big trucks fixed up to carry shipping containers with water purifiers and portable hospitals and such. Again, yellows and reds and off the shelf.
Finally, on every ship, a clone of Chuck Norris to kick some asses if needed. Or a small elite and well equipped defense group to protect the shipments from poop head warlords who might try and steal the lot. Not big, but the point being this, if some bone heads try and do something their big brother, be it China, Russia, the US or where ever, who supplies their weapons and such, they would be held responsable to keep their little brother in line. If the little brother doesn't smarten up, the big brother's insurance rate goes up.
I can't imagine the force needing more than 10,000 staff, and the majority on an on-call basis. Yellow jumpsuits all around. I don't know what the symbol would be that all people would see as rescue. Perhaps no symbol is the biggest symbol of them all.
Quote from: Gary on May 22, 2008, 08:16:10 AM
I can't imagine the force needing more than 10,000 staff, and the majority on an on-call basis. Yellow jumpsuits all around. I don't know what the symbol would be that all people would see as rescue. Perhaps no symbol is the biggest symbol of them all.
Ah good, no spandex. Then they would really look ridiculous.... :lol:
Maybe a globe similar to what is shown in the UN flag or like the Stargate SG-1 patches...
Quote from: Gary on May 22, 2008, 08:16:10 AMFinally, on every ship, a clone of Chuck Norris to kick some asses if needed.
Chuck Bloody Norrish?! That Nanshy boy? Sean Connery makes Norrish look like a weenie. Connery would kick his arshe around half of Glashgow and drop him in the Clyde. :wacko:
Quote from: sotoolslinger on May 20, 2008, 09:53:58 PM
I think Lemonjellos sweet Osprey gunship painted in UN or some other non offensive or high vis colors would be ideal for this. Cargo capacity , airdroppable pallets and the ability to defend itself. :wacko:
I'd use the gunship in the "deterrent" role, providing LZ support for the vanilla -22's as they make runs from the ships to shore. My tilt-rotor escort would provide enroute protection...
Maybe all the aircraft could have those big light/music setups like in Close Encounters of the Third Kind? Isn't music an international language? Or is that mathematics?
Quote from: LemonJello on May 24, 2008, 08:15:53 AM
Maybe all the aircraft could have those big light/music setups like in Close Encounters of the Third Kind? Isn't music an international language? Or is that mathematics?
There was me thinking of Wagner and Appocalypse Now.
How about "going in" to the proposed Wagner's "Ride of the Valkeries", a bit of "Tannhauser" too, and then lurch into some Zeppelin "In My Time of Dying" and "Immigrant Song", closing with a lot of Rammstein.
Get the idea? :rolleyes:
Maiden "Run to the Hills"?
Hey.....we want SPANDEX!!!
Justin Hawkinds could be the leader of the drop, with The Darkness's "Permission To Fall" album playing!!
SPANDEX....get your suit NOW!! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Radish on May 25, 2008, 01:39:13 AM
How about "going in" to the proposed Wagner's "Ride of the Valkeries", a bit of "Tannhauser" too, and then lurch into some Zeppelin "In My Time of Dying" and "Immigrant Song", closing with a lot of Rammstein.
Get the idea? :rolleyes:
So, "When the Levee Breaks" or "The Ocean" would be in poor taste? "Immigrant Song" is just pure genius for the inbound leg, though...
I know the troops could wear clown suits and go in to side 2 of Ogdens Nut Gone Flake :party: :cheers: :blink: