What if

General Modelling Forum => General Modeling topics => Topic started by: Mossie on October 18, 2007, 12:56:27 PM

Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Mossie on October 18, 2007, 12:56:27 PM
An idea popped into my head while reading the 'Piston Perfection GB' thread.  What about turboprop perfection?  Okay, development of the turboprop went hand in hand with the jet, but lets suspend reality for a moment & say that for some reason jet warplanes were never feasible, but turboprops were.  Yeah, I know it's unlikely, but lets forget the 'why' for now.

So, how would turboprop fighters & strike aircraft have developed?  Maybe starting with re-engined immediate-postwar war piston aircraft, then moving onto aircraft designed around the powerplant.  What would the performance be like, probably not supersonic?  Because of smaller, lighter powerplants would we have small, nimble aerobatic style aircraft, or larger ones able to carry more ordanance than their piston cousins?  Mostly twin engine designs for radar considerations?  What about the development of air launched  weapons?

Just a thought!!!
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Iranian F-14A on October 18, 2007, 01:37:54 PM
Well,you'd probbley have EMB-314 ALXs fighting Tu-95 Bears.The ALX carry Sidewinder type AAMs,now to get radar and radar guided AAMs to work,I'd say go for something like a turboprop model of the Blackwidow.Good lifting power,and a second crewmen to operate the radar(like in the F-4,F-14,F-15E,etc).  
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on October 18, 2007, 02:24:21 PM
Wont be supersonic, that's for sure, but there is a lot of room for development.  

Immediately postwar there might be more development of types such as the Wyvern.  Also with no jet's around for the airframe designers to focus on, there might be turbine developments of contemporary fighters like the Mustang, Spitfire (a Spit 24 with a RR Dart??), Bearcat, Sea Fury, etc.

Any of the those fighters would make good whifs with a turbine up front (or not so-whif in the case of the Piper Enforcer).

I wonder how airframe development would have gone with no jets?  Maybe a larger version of the Pond Racer (http://www.aafo.com/gallery/07-23-01.htm) ?   If we assume weapons development progresses with missile technology as in our timeline then I think eventually everything will go to a pusher design (sleeker fighter version of the Avanti (http://www.piaggioaero.com/en/) anyone?) so that the props dont interfere with weapons delivery.

Even though turboprop development without tubojets is a pretty far-fetched idea, this is an interesting topic.  It may be a lot easier to imagine early turbojets being so troublesome that the prop is seen as a better way of harnessing turbine power well into the 50s.


Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: dy031101 on October 18, 2007, 03:02:05 PM
Perhaps then we'd really have been seeing a pusher-prop fighter aircraft?  Or even engine mounts in unconventional locations (like those on an A-10)?  Sooner or later the nose space would have had to be freed up for a radar of adequate capability......
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Sisko on October 18, 2007, 03:17:28 PM

Swept wing delta pushers and other very sleak designs if you have seen the anime "wings of honneamise" they had some very cool designs.

Unlike a lot of Anime these were based in reality and had a very real world feel about them.

Some of the late war prop designs being worked on by the US also gives a good indication of what may have been possible.
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: kitnut617 on October 18, 2007, 05:35:35 PM
I'd given this some thought for quite a while Simon,  I came up with these two, which could be either turboprop or piston powered:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2F1950s%2520Crecy%2520Fighter%2FRRCrecyFighter002.jpg&hash=b414f77e90c27b4df58e5cea70536182c01e7c60)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FMisc%2520Photos%2FCenterLineThrustWhat-If002.jpg&hash=40bfbfa25578b9ac22dbb47e781636424e495abd)

Robert
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: elmayerle on October 18, 2007, 08:19:09 PM
QuoteWell,you'd probbley have EMB-314 ALXs fighting Tu-95 Bears.The ALX carry Sidewinder type AAMs,now to get radar and radar guided AAMs to work,I'd say go for something like a turboprop model of the Blackwidow.Good lifting power,and a second crewmen to operate the radar(like in the F-4,F-14,F-15E,etc).
Not necessarily, to add radar to a single-engined fighter, you could do what Beech did when they added radar to the A36 and sync the radar with the prop to prevent problems.  Mind you, I'm not sure but that at the time a wing-mounted radar, like the F4U-5N and F6F-5N carried, would make more sense.
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on October 18, 2007, 09:39:47 PM
Quote
QuoteWell,you'd probbley have EMB-314 ALXs fighting Tu-95 Bears.The ALX carry Sidewinder type AAMs,now to get radar and radar guided AAMs to work,I'd say go for something like a turboprop model of the Blackwidow.Good lifting power,and a second crewmen to operate the radar(like in the F-4,F-14,F-15E,etc).
Not necessarily, to add radar to a single-engined fighter, you could do what Beech did when they added radar to the A36 and sync the radar with the prop to prevent problems.  Mind you, I'm not sure but that at the time a wing-mounted radar, like the F4U-5N and F6F-5N carried, would make more sense.
I've flown a couple of radar-equipped A/B-36s, and all had the wing mount (in fact I only ever remember B-36s with radar).  Is there some other radar installation in the Bonanza?
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: elmayerle on October 19, 2007, 09:46:24 PM
Quote
Quote
QuoteWell,you'd probbley have EMB-314 ALXs fighting Tu-95 Bears.The ALX carry Sidewinder type AAMs,now to get radar and radar guided AAMs to work,I'd say go for something like a turboprop model of the Blackwidow.Good lifting power,and a second crewmen to operate the radar(like in the F-4,F-14,F-15E,etc).
Not necessarily, to add radar to a single-engined fighter, you could do what Beech did when they added radar to the A36 and sync the radar with the prop to prevent problems.  Mind you, I'm not sure but that at the time a wing-mounted radar, like the F4U-5N and F6F-5N carried, would make more sense.
I've flown a couple of radar-equipped A/B-36s, and all had the wing mount (in fact I only ever remember B-36s with radar).  Is there some other radar installation in the Bonanza?
It may be something farther up their lineup that the Bonanza, I don't remember the precise aircraft, but the replaced a large balance weight in the lower engine cowling with a nose-mounted weather radar that was synchronized with the prop to prevent interferences.  It's been ages since I remember seeing the write-up, but I thought it was a simple, yet sophisticated, solution to the whole problem, and it neither increased the aircraft's dry weight nor impacted the weight and balance.
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: kitnut617 on October 20, 2007, 08:16:00 AM
QuoteI'd say go for something like a turboprop model of the Blackwidow.Good lifting power,and a second crewmen to operate the radar(like in the F-4,F-14,F-15E,etc).
I could see a turbo-prop version of the P-61E, that's a good idea.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FMisc%2520Photos%2Fnorth-p61e.jpg&hash=df86b829ba75ea389bdbe2218b702298219d52e4)
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: famvburg on October 20, 2007, 11:28:47 AM
Quote
Quote
Quote
QuoteWell,you'd probbley have EMB-314 ALXs fighting Tu-95 Bears.The ALX carry Sidewinder type AAMs,now to get radar and radar guided AAMs to work,I'd say go for something like a turboprop model of the Blackwidow.Good lifting power,and a second crewmen to operate the radar(like in the F-4,F-14,F-15E,etc).
Not necessarily, to add radar to a single-engined fighter, you could do what Beech did when they added radar to the A36 and sync the radar with the prop to prevent problems.  Mind you, I'm not sure but that at the time a wing-mounted radar, like the F4U-5N and F6F-5N carried, would make more sense.
I've flown a couple of radar-equipped A/B-36s, and all had the wing mount (in fact I only ever remember B-36s with radar).  Is there some other radar installation in the Bonanza?
It may be something farther up their lineup that the Bonanza, I don't remember the precise aircraft, but the replaced a large balance weight in the lower engine cowling with a nose-mounted weather radar that was synchronized with the prop to prevent interferences.  It's been ages since I remember seeing the write-up, but I thought it was a simple, yet sophisticated, solution to the whole problem, and it neither increased the aircraft's dry weight nor impacted the weight and balance.

   I think I remember seeing a few of those over the years. Most I've seen have the radar wing-mounted. Also, Cessna 210s & 337s have a pod mounted underwing radar & there's a Pilatus PC-12 that flies to my place with the radar mounted in the leading edge, like Hellcats & Corsairs did.
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: famvburg on October 20, 2007, 11:47:12 AM

   I remember about 25 - 30 years ago an article in some flying magazine comparing the 600 or so HP P & W PT-6 with a Lycoming O-320, back at the time that turbine ag-planes were just getting popular, along with converting recips to turbines in general. Ironically, as I recall, the reason they were comparing the PT-6 to the O-320 was because of their weights. The typical O-320 weighs in around  300 - 350 lbs, as does a PT-6. The O-320 puts out 150 HP, where the PT-6 mentioned is rated at 4 times that. I remember another article, probably in an ag aviation related magazine, comparing the 600 horse PT-6 to a P & W R-1340 of the same rating. The -1340 weighs in around 1100 - 1200 lbs, IIRC, so you go from a big heavy round engine to a much smaller lighter engine of the same power. In addition to the longer time between overhauls, & even some maintenance, as well as much improved reliability, it's a cleaner, sleeker installation, so there's less drag & one thing we've noticed, due to the less, near zero vibration, is much more comfort for the pilot & is much easier on airframe structures, skins  & panels. Even the operating costs over comparable times to the radial was about the same. Initial cost, OTOH, was a different story. Don't get me wrong, I love recips, espcially radials, but a turbine's hard to beat.
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Daryl J. on October 20, 2007, 12:18:16 PM
When hearing the Piston Perfection GB was on, a Macchi 202 got ordered but I made the mistake of thinking "turbine'' GB.   Extending the nose a tad and centering the thrustline would produce one beautiful aircraft.   The only optical dislike I've had of that machine is the front cowling/spinner below the aircraft's midline due to the DB engine.     Hooking up a turbine with contraprops to a Spitfire Mk.1 would also make, IMHO, a beautiful aircraft.     One presumption, which in many ways simply isn't a turbine engine, is that the powerplants are relatively heavy resulting in nose extensions that were not overlarge.    A MiG-3 and Yak-3 are other candidates too.

In multi engine, I'd still like to do a B-29 stretch-fuselage with turbines that look much different than the Chinese variant's lumpy bumpy mini Buccaneer like pods.

Perhaps even the Naboo fighter could get  a turboprop variant and be limited to oxygen based missions!   :thumbsup:    They are, after all, very very old.  ^_^

How about the XF-88 keeping it's turbine?  :thumbsup:   Or, making a cruise missle variant of the Hound Dog spinning a prop?

What if WW-1 had turbines as well.   Albatros D.V on 'roids coming up, eh?


I could, however, never put turboprops on two aircraft:  The Comet/Nimrod and the Boeing 707/KC-135.    That would be bad enough to cause every tatoo in America to turn into flames of anguish.........



Neat thread!
Daryl J.

[edit]:  Hayao Miyzaki liked the turbine idea enough that the final frames of the film 'Porco Rosso' in the original cut were of Marco's Savoia in it's third iteration featuring a turboprop engine outflying a Caravelle.   It never made the final movie but is included in the book 'The Art of Porco Rosso'.    It would be a great modification to Fine Molds already cool kit.  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:  
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Mossie on October 29, 2007, 07:19:32 AM
Sorry, posted this then kind of lost my train of thought.  I always thought that the some of the BAe SABA design series seemed to be the ultimate turboprop combat aircraft.  Small, lightweight, ultra-agile & capable of pack a fairly hefty wallop for it's size, the P.1233 maybe shows us what could have been here.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FBAeSABAP.jpg&hash=ba1fba996d8f9b301174c880049d4a4d0d9ecd80)

Rutan's ARES, although a turbojet has the right kind of layout & it shouldn't be too difficult to convert it to a pusher prop.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FScaledCompositsesARES.jpg&hash=89ccc0e744650d49ad69da54a38c281d124841f9)
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: lenny100 on October 29, 2007, 12:01:33 PM
been their done it

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index...ST&f=40&t=15178 (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?act=ST&f=40&t=15178)
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Mossie on October 29, 2007, 01:14:18 PM
Hmm, I'd forgotten about that Lenny!  If I remember, ducted fans are particularly suited to low speed handling, if turboprops had been more prolific than they may possibly have equipped trainers or observation types, like the Edgley Optica?
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: GTX on November 03, 2007, 09:54:44 PM
Speaking of which, does anyone do a kit of the Edgley Optica?

Regards,

Greg
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Mossie on November 04, 2007, 04:25:46 AM
I've never found one Greg, I've been hoping so for a while!  I'd love to do a COIN version, maybe fitted with various electronic lumps & bumps.
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: kitnut617 on November 04, 2007, 06:08:59 AM
QuoteSpeaking of which, does anyone do a kit of the Edgley Optica?

Regards,

Greg
Yes there is, in 1/72.  But I can't remember who made it now though.  I thought it was our friends at Mach II.  I'll keep looking.
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Mossie on November 04, 2007, 06:59:13 AM
Lovely, thanks Robert!
Title: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: GTX on November 05, 2007, 12:48:50 AM
Yes thanks.

Regards,

Greg
Title: Itsuha
Post by: dy031101 on March 16, 2010, 09:52:44 PM
Itsuha from Sky Crawlers: Innocent Aces.

I once considered it not as sleek as the Sanka, but its bulbous radome now makes me think...... what say if we turn the design into a missileer by scaling it up if necessary (at least a missileer needs a two-man crew) and then put Bendix Eagle missiles under its wings?

EDIT: Was half-asleep when first typing this post.
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 17, 2010, 02:47:32 AM
Having read the discussions on this bumped thread, there were a couple of projected turbo-prop fighters for real, although they are usually remembered for other reasons. I'm talking about the Convair XFY-1 Pogo and the Lockheed XFV-1 Salmon, both of which used the big Allison YT-40 turbo-prop.

They solved the 'Where do you put the radar' question by having installed in front of the prop, inside the monster spinner! Or at least they planned to do that, AFAIK neither aircraft actually flew with the planned radar installed. Full scale Whiff thinking there.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: dy031101 on March 17, 2010, 08:01:40 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 17, 2010, 02:47:32 AM
They solved the 'Where do you put the radar' question by having installed in front of the prop, inside the monster spinner! Or at least they planned to do that, AFAIK neither aircraft actually flew with the planned radar installed. Full scale Whiff thinking there.  :thumbsup:

Um...... I got a question- of a fire control radar unit to be installed in the configuration you described, what needs to be in the spinner with the antenna and what can be mounted further behind within the nose?  Can we run some wires past the engine to connect two seperate parts (if one of those is mounted behind the engine) of the radar?

It's just that I'd imagine the spinner to be even bigger than those on the Pogo and Salmon if the entire radar unit is to be mounted inside of the spinner......
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Fulcrum on March 18, 2010, 12:09:05 AM
I know this is a silly idea, but why don't just replace the cannon in the spinner of the Bf-109 with a miniurized radar unit?
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: gral_rj on March 18, 2010, 03:12:14 AM
Quote from: Fulcrum on March 18, 2010, 12:09:05 AM
I know this is a silly idea, but why don't just replace the cannon in the spinner of the Bf-109 with a miniurized radar unit?

No space for it; the spinner isn't hollow, there's an axle inside it. The barrel of the cannon goes inside that axle.
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Weaver on March 18, 2010, 05:25:00 AM
I'd love to know what effects vibration would have on a spinner-mounted radar set/aerial......... :blink:
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Mossie on March 18, 2010, 05:38:59 AM
Early on radar sets would be placed in pods mounted on pylons or faired into the wing.  Maybe this approach would continue, until the need for larger dishes started to make this practice impractical.  As mentioned above, pusher configurations would have been favourable, there are also other ways of incorporating arrays rather than a dish, maybe these could be explored further.
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 18, 2010, 04:31:32 PM
Quote from: dy031101 on March 17, 2010, 08:01:40 AM
Um...... I got a question- of a fire control radar unit to be installed in the configuration you described, what needs to be in the spinner with the antenna and what can be mounted further behind within the nose?  Can we run some wires past the engine to connect two seperate parts (if one of those is mounted behind the engine) of the radar?

It's just that I'd imagine the spinner to be even bigger than those on the Pogo and Salmon if the entire radar unit is to be mounted inside of the spinner......

AFAIK just the scanner head was to be in the spinner dome, and the waveguide was to extend through the contra-prop tubular axle from a junction box behind it. But if you look at stripped down pics of the Pogo, the prop gearbox is mounted RIGHT behind the prop base-plate, so where the radar stuff was going to go goodness only knows.

In my Whiffed Convair-Hawker Osprey I made the whole airframe longer to give it some more space, but I don't know how far Convair got on planning a 'production' version.
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: Stargazer on March 19, 2010, 07:44:02 AM

Whatever happened to these two? Did you finish them, Robert?


Quote from: kitnut617 on October 18, 2007, 05:35:35 PM
I'd given this some thought for quite a while Simon,  I came up with these two, which could be either turboprop or piston powered:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2F1950s%2520Crecy%2520Fighter%2FRRCrecyFighter002.jpg&hash=b414f77e90c27b4df58e5cea70536182c01e7c60)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi200.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faa263%2Fkitnut617%2FMisc%2520Photos%2FCenterLineThrustWhat-If002.jpg&hash=40bfbfa25578b9ac22dbb47e781636424e495abd)

Robert
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: kitnut617 on March 19, 2010, 05:22:49 PM
Quote from: Stargazer2006 on March 19, 2010, 07:44:02 AM

Whatever happened to these two? Did you finish them, Robert?



Erm! they're still in the packing box I used when I moved three years ago, my 'hobby room' is still a dream as is the nice big display cabinet I want to set up, so the packed built models (250 of them) and the stash are still in storage.  Don't know when I'll ever get them sorted out, it's beginning to piss me off.
Title: Re: Turboprop Fighters
Post by: dy031101 on March 22, 2010, 09:10:35 PM
Posting it here for asthetics reason- AEGIS pusher-prop from Raiden Fighters game; the pic was found here (http://www.spriters-resource.com/community/showthread.php?tid=7065&pid=164914#pid164914).

(I've also wanted to see a clear pic of the Chaser but could never find one.  Chaser is a forward-swept-wing pusher-prop, an ingame sprite of which can be seen here (http://www.spriters-resource.com/community/showthread.php?tid=7065&pid=240621#pid240621).)