I'm putting together a 1/72nd scale A-4 skyhawk and was thinking about modifying it a little. Had a couple technical questions...
1. Is there any reason overwing hardpoints (ie Jaguar / Lightning) could not be added on the wings, located approximately above the inner two wing hardpoints? By moving the sidewinders up there, it would free up the outer underwing hardpoints for pods or more weapons. It doesn't look like it would hinder anything externally, but I didn't know if it would be possible or if it screwed with something inside.
2. Since the Skyhawk uses a varient of the APG-66 radar of the F-16, is there any reason Harpoon could not be integrated? One should fit neatly on the center hardpoint, obviously it would require new wiring/avionics, just wondering if it's feasible.
On #2, While in theory it should work, could the Scooter get airborn? If the Harpoon is out of the question, why not go for the Penguine?
Shas B)
Answered backwards-
Yes APG-66 can cue a Harpoon so that's not all that off but I think the size would be an issue. A standard anti-ship AGM-84 weighs roughly 1200lbs (540kg) so by the book a Scooter could carry one on the centerline (stressed for 5000lb) or one on either inboard wing plyon (3000lb) but two would be a hell of a load. Go one on the centerline and twin inboard tanks or what Shas suggested and ride two Penguins on each of the inboards with a bag on the c/l.
As for mounting AAM rail above wing-YIKES. The A-4 wing is TINY. Now I'm not the one to answer aerodynamic questions but notice all the little vottex generators on the wing? They're there to keep the airflow going in the right direction. I think something mounted on a pylon might disrupt it enough.......
My $0.02 worth......
As small as a Scooter's wing is, I would imagine you'd get *serious* turbulent flow problems with the interaction of the overwing store/pylon and the fusealge. Also, don't forget the gravity fuel filler cap is located just above the right hand inboard pylon area.
J
Thanks for the comments, that's what I needed to know... overwing hardpoints are out!
You could go with wing tip hardpoints instead, I would imagine.
QuoteYou could go with wing tip hardpoints instead, I would imagine.
Trouble with using wingtip pylons on teh Scooter is that the balance horns for the ailerons take up pretty much the whole wingtip -- there's be no place to mount 'em.
Aircraft designers used ballance horns for ailerons as late as the 1950/60s??? :wacko:
QuoteAircraft designers used ballance horns for ailerons as late as the 1950/60s??? :wacko:
And they still do. All ailerons need to be balanced (we're not talking about video game airplanes like F-16s, btw), and there are only a couple of ways of doing that. It's not archiac technology. The A-4 was designed to be simple and cheap, and the aileron design follows that philosophy.
J
Since the Scoot has such long legs, why not just redesign the out stations for dual-use pylons (one that has the 'shoulder' AAM rail) ?
Shas B)
QuoteSince the Scoot has such long legs, why not just redesign the out stations for dual-use pylons (one that has the 'shoulder' AAM rail) ?
Shas B)
I don't think that'll work either. The outboards are really out there and anything deeper might cause drag/airflow issues at the tip.
How about a small wingtip extention increasing the span a couple of feet to clear the arelon balance horns say 1&1/2 to 2 feet per wing that should clear them and supply a little extra lift (Not much I'm sure)
QuoteHow about a small wingtip extention increasing the span a couple of feet to clear the arelon balance horns say 1&1/2 to 2 feet per wing that should clear them and supply a little extra lift (Not much I'm sure)
Yeah, but then you're messing with perfection :) Try putting a wingtip extension on that lovely little wing and make it look good...
J
How about going for a lighter short range AAM such as Mistral or Stinger?. Maybe it can be attached on a wingtip launcher without much disturbance, and you are getting some extra punch. Other option could be twin rails for the AIM-9, I saw something alike in post-falklands SHARs. Sure the scooter has a small wing, but so does the Sea Harrier. I imagine an asymetric load: 2 Sidewinders on one wing, and whatever you want in the other: ECM, chaff, rockets, etc. I´ve seen these kind of arrangements in A-10s, so I think it could work in other planes.
Well, some ideas...
QuoteQuoteSince the Scoot has such long legs, why not just redesign the out stations for dual-use pylons (one that has the 'shoulder' AAM rail) ?
Shas B)
I don't think that'll work either. The outboards are really out there and anything deeper might cause drag/airflow issues at the tip.
Ok, then how about the inner pylon, leaving the outers for other loads (similar to the Tornado)?
Shas B)
QuoteQuoteQuoteSince the Scoot has such long legs, why not just redesign the out stations for dual-use pylons (one that has the 'shoulder' AAM rail) ?
Shas B)
I don't think that'll work either. The outboards are really out there and anything deeper might cause drag/airflow issues at the tip.
Ok, then how about the inner pylon, leaving the outers for other loads (similar to the Tornado)?
Shas B)
I imagine it would still cause some clearance issues. Real estate on the scooter really is sparse! ;)
QuoteHow about going for a lighter short range AAM such as Mistral or Stinger?. Maybe it can be attached on a wingtip launcher without much disturbance, and you are getting some extra punch. Other option could be twin rails for the AIM-9, I saw something alike in post-falklands SHARs. Sure the scooter has a small wing, but so does the Sea Harrier. I imagine an asymetric load: 2 Sidewinders on one wing, and whatever you want in the other: ECM, chaff, rockets, etc. I´ve seen these kind of arrangements in A-10s, so I think it could work in other planes.
Well, some ideas...
AFAIK the Stinger is not qualified for airborne launching. It's purely a shoulder-fired weapon. Not sure about the Mistral. In any event, the twin AIM-9 (or AIM-9Z) launcher sounds feasible. The SHAR used it, as does the A-10.
J
QuoteI imagine it would still cause some clearance issues. Real estate on the scooter really is sparse! ;)
You know that's why they invented the MER, to get the maximum usage out of the Skyhawk's capacity.
QuoteAFAIK the Stinger is not qualified for airborne launching. It's purely a shoulder-fired weapon.
If thats the case then why are the Longbows cleared for dual Stinger launchers on each wingtip?
Shas B)
QuoteQuoteAFAIK the Stinger is not qualified for airborne launching. It's purely a shoulder-fired weapon.
If thats the case then why are the Longbows cleared for dual Stinger launchers on each wingtip?
Shas B)
Because helicopters don't really fly. Everyone knows that :) It's a physical impossibility.
J
Smarta$s :lol:
Shas B)
QuoteBecause helicopters don't really fly. Everyone knows that :) It's a physical impossibility.
BURN! :lol: :lol: :lol:
QuoteBecause helicopters don't really fly. Everyone knows that smile.gif It's a physical impossibility.
Yep - they beat the air into submission!
Regards,
Greg
How about the F-15's setup with a sidewinder on either side of the pylon that the droptank is on???
QuoteHow about the F-15's setup with a sidewinder on either side of the pylon that the droptank is on???
Center Pylon: Clearance issues with the wheel bay doors
Inner Wing Pylons: Clearance issues inside due to landing gear strut, clearance issues outside due to proximity of outer wing pylons
yes, the Apache carries Stingers, and the Tiger Mistrals, al least our tigers does. The comanche also had prevision to use stingers. I don´t know why can´t you use these kind of missiles.
The last option I imagine is create an totally new wing from cardboard and add whatever you want. Use a Su-25 wing, or a U-2 one, twenty plus hardpoints, what the hell.
Quoteand the Tiger Mistrals, al least our tigers does.
Where would that be - Spain or France?
Regards,
Greg
Sad to say, Spain. I guess you are french, aren´t you? As I said some time ago, my first contender was the apache, just because of availability, but nowadays, any helicopter is welcome as we have no attack capability. Our president Zapatero has proceeded with the order just to keep industrial agreements, if it were his will, he should have cancelled the tiger, the NH 90s, and even Typhoons... :angry:
QuoteI guess you are french, aren´t you
Guess again - Australian! Also a Tiger operator (well eventually) as well as a NH-90 customer (in the MRH-90 variant).
Regards,
Greg
QuoteI don´t know why can´t you use these kind of missiles.
I would guess that those shoulder-fired type missiles (so designed anyway) probably have *very* low airspeed limits for firing. I mean let's face it, your average Apache doesn't do more than 100 kts indicated, even with a tail wind, whereas your average Scooter can zip along at 450 easy. It might be faster than the missile, y'know?
If anyone has access to the gunner's manuals for either of those helo types, I'd lay good money that if you're going more than about 15 kts it says you can't fire them.
J
The stinger flies at Mach 2,2, and the mistral at M2,5, the scooter can´t go that fast.
Anyway, if you don´t like adapting "shoulder launched" why don´t just put wingtip sidewinders, like a second generation Bae Hawk trainer. I´ll put some hawk 127 wings onto the A4, it may work fine.