What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Weapon Systems. Real and Imagined. => Topic started by: proditor on January 18, 2007, 07:02:13 AM

Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: proditor on January 18, 2007, 07:02:13 AM
So for all of you modelers who wanted that rail gun equipped battleship...well, read and cry your tears of joy.  ;)

http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2007/01...dex_html?page=1 (http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2007/012007/01172007/251373/index_html?page=1)

Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: cthulhu77 on January 18, 2007, 07:10:32 AM
I feel sorry for that captain...this information is still classified.
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Mossie on January 18, 2007, 07:29:40 AM
This article mentions a contract  awarded to BAE to produce a 32 Mega Joule weapon, but I guess the one in your article Proditor is the mentioned as a foot note by the University of Texas Institute of Advanced Technology.  It might equip the DD (X) Destroyer.

BAE Rail Gun (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/07/bae-producing-scaleddown-rail-gun-naval-weapon/index.php#more)

I guess if it's secret then that Captains in for it!
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Archibald on January 18, 2007, 07:49:26 AM
Wow!!
QuoteAt the peak of its ballistic trajectory, the projectile will reach an altitude of 500,000 feet, or about 95 miles, actually exiting the Earth's atmosphere.
(better than Munchausen  :D )

Have you see the reference to "the eraser " (hilarious film, when Arnold fight with an alligator... )  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: B777LR on January 18, 2007, 08:01:03 AM
Didnt the germans didnt develop something like this during WW2?
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Archibald on January 18, 2007, 08:15:07 AM
Not exactly... the hochdruckpumpe (name  :lol: ) which was set up in a huge buncker in Mimoyecke, North of France  used the basic technic of gun (powder) , with some power augmentation (can't remember exactly what, I think the gun had more pression chambers).

This one looks more like Arnold guns in "the Eraser" (but I would never thought that these terrific weapons were almost real  :o )  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: cthulhu77 on January 18, 2007, 09:17:07 AM
skip the almost.  Devastating.
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: kitnut617 on January 18, 2007, 10:59:05 AM
Wasn't this what the Canadian Bullock (or Bullard) was working on before the Israelies bumped him off.  He was building it for Saddam.

Before that he spent ages developing this for the US before he was told it would never happen!!  hmmm! interesting.
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Archangel on January 18, 2007, 11:09:53 AM
Just you wait,next thing you know it'll be sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads!!!!
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Hobbes on January 18, 2007, 11:25:23 AM
QuoteWasn't this what the Canadian Bullock (or Bullard) was working on before the Israelies bumped him off.  He was building it for Saddam.

Before that he spent ages developing this for the US before he was told it would never happen!!  hmmm! interesting.
No. Those were guns with 'normal' chemical propellants, successors to the hochdruckpumpe.

A rail gun basically consists of two big parallel wires (the rails). The projectile connects the two, and the resulting current produces a magnetic field that propels the projectile. The problem is that you need a huge current to create the magnetic field. The projectile should touch the rails to complete the circuit, but the pressure should be as low as possible to prevent the projectile from being welded to the rails. That means the contact won't be perfect, and you get lots of sparks which will damage the rails. Also, the huge magnetic fields may warp the gun. Current designs need repairs after every shot.  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: ysi_maniac on January 18, 2007, 11:40:15 AM
QuoteA rail gun basically consists of two big parallel wires (the rails). The projectile connects the two, and the resulting current produces a magnetic field that propels the projectile. The problem is that you need a huge current to create the magnetic field. The projectile should touch the rails to complete the circuit, but the pressure should be as low as possible to prevent the projectile from being welded to the rails. That means the contact won't be perfect, and you get lots of sparks which will damage the rails. Also, the huge magnetic fields may warp the gun. Current designs need repairs after every shot.
This is the information I had. But this is not new at all.

Anyway I was thinking in a supertank with such weapon  :wub:  :wub:  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Mossie on January 18, 2007, 12:26:52 PM
Sounds interesting Carlos!  One of the problems at the moment is not the really big weapons, but the smaller ones.  The weapons need a huge amount of electricity & therefore enormous capacitors to generate this, that's why they're only talking of mounting it on a ship at present.  As technology advances, it'll be small enough to fit on a tank & the boffins eventually reckon small arms will use use the technology.  When you see the hero in a sci fi film point a 'ray-gun' at the bad guy & he expoldes the moment he presses the trigger, that may well be real soon. :blink:

We keep talking about these new weapons in awe.  In some ways I find them very interesting, in others they scare the crap out of me! :unsure:  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Maverick on January 18, 2007, 01:05:42 PM
QuoteJust you wait,next thing you know it'll be sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads!!!!
Or perhaps mutated sea Bass?

But seriously folks, a few things strike me:

1. the Director stated it was like a 'supersonic bullet'... the last time I looked all bullets were supersonic except for suppressed rounds, etc...

2. the thing's got a ballistic trajectory? & exits the atmosphere?  Reminds me of the cargo flights near the DMZ in SVN that took a chance of being hit by 'friendly' arty.

3. and finally they want to GPS it...?  Looks like everything gets GPS these days.

Either way, it's some seriously nasty firepower, I wonder what it'll do to the ship it's fitted to... (can we say Philidelphia, lol)

Regards,

mav
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: B777LR on January 18, 2007, 01:25:27 PM
Bah, killer sea-cucumber :ar:  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on January 18, 2007, 02:11:48 PM
QuoteWasn't this what the Canadian Bullock (or Bullard) was working on before the Israelies bumped him off.  He was building it for Saddam.

Before that he spent ages developing this for the US before he was told it would never happen!!  hmmm! interesting.
Gerald Bull
=======================

As far as projectiles go, they need to develop one that is biodegradable such as a frozen chicken or turkey.  Something that will fertilize the devastated area after it has been destroyed.  

Recalling the various proof and test programs that were using high velocity chicken carcasses to impact aircraft windscreens and develop test data on bird strikes....

edit----
I would assume that if the bird was wrapped in a conductive material such as aluminum foil it could be propelled at hypervelocity towards a distant target...

Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: PanzerWulff on January 18, 2007, 02:58:49 PM
Quote

As far as projectiles go, they need to develop one that is biodegradable such as a frozen chicken or turkey.  Something that will fertilize the devastated area after it has been destroyed.  
So a Manure Mortar Offensive Organic Ordinance or M.M.O.O.O for short  :P  :lol:  :rolleyes: (Sorry I just woke up :blink: )
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Mossie on January 18, 2007, 03:03:31 PM
QuoteJust you wait,next thing you know it'll be sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads!!!!
Or Bees trained to sniff explosives.  I'm not kidding yer:

http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/fuseact...y/story_id/9475 (http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/fuseaction/home.story/story_id/9475)
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Son of Damian on January 18, 2007, 03:23:27 PM
So do you think that by the time the Navy nails down what exactly they want out of the DDX that its armament will include rail guns???

IIRC they was an article in Popular Mechanics/Science a few months ago that mentioned the USAF was looking to put rail guns on aircraft...  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: cthulhu77 on January 18, 2007, 03:34:45 PM
^_^  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Mossie on January 18, 2007, 03:57:56 PM
A model of a tank fitted with a rail gun by UT-IAT, the designers of the weapon:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FGeneral%2FRailGunTank.jpg&hash=67a92bd9c23e01010a5e2bdf03644469f4b02e56)

Hope that's useful Carlos!
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: anthonyp on January 18, 2007, 04:12:28 PM
QuoteSo do you think that by the time the Navy nails down what exactly they want out of the DDX that its armament will include rail guns???

IIRC they was an article in Popular Mechanics/Science a few months ago that mentioned the USAF was looking to put rail guns on aircraft...
No, as the 155mm AGS is going to go on the ships when built.  Had this confirmed from the ASD guy sitting in the next cube at work, who's working on one of the DDG-1000 projects.

More likely, any rail gun will be refit to the ships at a later time.  
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Maverick on January 18, 2007, 11:28:23 PM
they have a model of a vehicle with a rail-gun and it's an LAV, c'mon, i thought this jigger was supposed to be a BFG??
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: grayman on January 18, 2007, 11:42:41 PM
Quote
Quote

As far as projectiles go, they need to develop one that is biodegradable such as a frozen chicken or turkey.  Something that will fertilize the devastated area after it has been destroyed. 
So a Manure Mortar Offensive Organic Ordinance or M.M.O.O.O for short  :P  :lol:  :rolleyes: (Sorry I just woke up :blink: )
Actually, this has happened. In Algeria ('50's?) some French troops came under harassing fire and responded by lobbing back mortar shells with the explosive replaced by, umm, lets say "latrine waste".

Needless to say the account I read went on to mention that the harassing fire soon stopped.
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Howard of Effingham on January 19, 2007, 03:22:15 AM
Quote
QuoteJust you wait,next thing you know it'll be sharks with frickin laser beams attached to their heads!!!!
Or Bees trained to sniff explosives.  I'm not kidding yer:

http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/fuseact...y/story_id/9475 (http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/fuseaction/home.story/story_id/9475)
iirc this one was also mentioned on BBC radio 4 a few weeks back.

anyhow i can't believe that a USN officer would be so  :dum: as to speak like this without it being cleared first.

there is probably also a report on it on the news stand section of the USN website, but i don't have the time to look right now.

trevor
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Mossie on January 19, 2007, 06:21:42 AM
Quotethey have a model of a vehicle with a rail-gun and it's an LAV, c'mon, i thought this jigger was supposed to be a BFG??
It's not so much the size of the gun as the power source needed to propell the round.  The model is probably only a concept, but it shows to good effect the space taken up by the capacitors, theres no room left for any troops in there.  Even if you wanted an assault rifle, at the moment you'd still need to cart around a power source the size of a small bus!  Until the technology moves on, any tank that carries one is going to have an enormous weight penalty.  Saying that, semi mobile artillery or even self propelled artillery might be possible if the capabilities of the weapon warrant it.

What about escalation?  What technologies would protect against this weapon?  The Metal Storm guns may provide some level of protection, anything else?  Something capable of disrupting the capacitors, or even overloading them?
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Maverick on January 19, 2007, 07:59:31 AM
i guess given the flight path (ie Ballistic) and speed (???) lasers or perhaps a new generation Patriot might be feasible
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Mossie on January 19, 2007, 08:12:44 AM
Speed, your looking in the high hypersonic range at around mach 8, possibly faster in the future.  Patriot would need beefing up somewhat for that & if your looking at shells launched at a high rate of fire your just not going to be able to defend against them with missiles.  Lasers would be a better idea, a ground or naval based version of the ABL.  Again, this is another system that is very large because of the power source & may reduce in size in the not too distant future.
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Howard of Effingham on January 20, 2007, 01:38:16 AM
the picture gallery of the US Navy website has a few pictures of the rail gun tests that they are doing at dahlgren at the mo' a few pages in. from reading the attached story it seems that any fully operational rail gun [mounting on a DDX or
FFX type was talked of] is at least 10 years off. LOTS of problems to get the weapon usable. but even on test it looks very effective.

trevor
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: wagnersm on January 20, 2007, 06:40:15 AM
Quote<snip>
edit----
I would assume that if the bird was wrapped in a conductive material such as aluminum foil it could be propelled at hypervelocity towards a distant target...
Or a new way to quick cook chicken for the crew's mess. <grin>
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: BlackOps on January 20, 2007, 09:01:38 PM
I love it when Sci-Fi meets reality!

OK, not being wise in the way that such things work, could such a weapon be incapacitated by a large EMP? Can they shield against something like that? I keep thinking with everything so dependant upon electronics how do we protect against EMP's?  :blink:



Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: cthulhu77 on January 20, 2007, 09:10:20 PM
The new shieldings being developed are making most of the electronics used by the military protected by emp blast...of course, a localized target could be hit and knocked out.
 The most viable use of emp's would be against air stations (tower control, awacs, etc), as all of the ground units have manual over-rides available.  I am not sure if emp would hurt a railgun or not...it might screw up the computer, but not the system itself.

  O.G.R.E. anyone?
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: GTX on January 20, 2007, 09:10:54 PM
Quotehow do we protect against EMP's?

There are ways.

Regards,

Greg
Title: And Now We Have Rail Guns. For Real.
Post by: Hobbes on January 21, 2007, 03:46:29 AM
QuoteI am not sure if emp would hurt a railgun or not...it might screw up the computer, but not the system itself.
Correct. The gun uses massive conductors, an EMP won't induce enough current to fry them. Computers are another matter. You can protect them, to a degree: stick them inside a Faraday cage and use optical lines for communication.

And then there's the Russian way: use vacuum tubes instead of ICs. When a MiG-25 pilot defected to Japan in 1976, the initial reaction was to laugh at the silly Russians and their outdated electronics. Now we know that this was a conscious decision, done in part to harden the aircraft against EMP.