A few weeks ago, the USAF admitted to the existence of the Red Hats: an adversary squadron out of Nellis AFB and the associated Nellis and Tonopah Test Ranges that flew Soviet MiGs that had been "acquired" through various means. The aircraft were the MiG-17, MiG-19, MiG-21, and MiG-23, and the Su-20. While MiG-29s were not flown, they were evaluated after German reunification and the famous Moldovan acquisition of 21 Fulcrums. What other aircraft could the Red Hats have flown as adversary aircraft if an example had presented itself? Here's a few possibles:
MiG-25: Viktor Belenko offered to teach American pilots how to fly the Foxbat as he'd brought the pilot's manual with him when he flew his Foxbat to Japan in '76. Instead, the plane was returned to Ivan-one piece at a time.
MiG-27: Ground attack/strike version of the MiG-23; an additional defection brings an example.
Su-24: Captured in Iraq 1991 or flown to Israel by a Syrian defecting crew and the plane's passed on to the USAF.
Su-27: Pre-1991 defection; a clandestine purchase, or outright buy from a post-Soviet republic.
Tu-22M Backfire: purchase from Ukraine (only post-Soviet operator besides Russia).
MiG-31 Foxhound: Same as for the Su-27.
J-8 Finback: PRC pilot flies to Taiwan or Okinawa and defects.
A tactical recon version of the NM-1
The Ma-50
The Orlyonok for the Defense of Lake Washington and Lake Huron.
Yea,great idea,put a Lun with its Sunburn missiles up on Lake Erie,that should keep those pesky Canucks at bay!
On a more,well,slightly more serious note,I'm thinking Su-25s would be helpful to the Army guys out at Irwin with the Hinds.Also,maybe the Army could have some real Ka-50s or Mi-28s to go with those Hinds.Or maybe the Army could addapt the Ka-52 to replace the cancelled RAH-66,as was the subject of my college english class.(BTW,I made such a convincing argument in favor of the Ka-52 for the ARH role the teacher gave me an A+.)
Ok,back on subject,what about say,an USAF or USN IL-38 May? this could provide an aggressor for fleet exercises but could also be used to simulate a Russian Bear bomber.
i found a snippet in a 1960's magazine about a Chinese IL.28 that defected to Taiwan being transferred to the US. but nothing further seems to have surfaced???
hmm..how about a US. Tu.16 Badger complete with missiles ex Indonesian??? i know the US. got some bits n pieces from there, not sure how much tho???
its a pity the mockup Firefox prop was broken up to make the mockup XF.19 and UCAV. for deal of the century (a surprisingly good film!) that wouldv been a fun lineup to see at a press call...lol
seasons greetings, cheers, joe
I think a Tupolev Bear cound have been a distinct possibilty.
I grew up watching Canadian Voodoos and Hornets on the news intercepting reccon Bears that came into Canadian airspace.
Now, what if one of said Bears had mechanical problems and was forced to put down in Canada? Or what if we actually did force one to land?
On a later time scale, how about the TU-160 Blackjack? At the time of the Soviet Union's breakup, the whole TU-160 fleet (or at least the highest percentage of it) was based in Ukraine. Russia and Ukraine worked out some kind of deal where the Ukrainians would give back the Blackjacks for some degree of debt forgiveness. So, for all intents and purposes, the Ukrainians owned those Blackjacks and concievable could have sold them to the highest bidder if they wanted to. How much money do you think Washington would ante up to have one if Ukraine had put them on the selling block?
Additional MiG-29s likely would have been no issue to procure after the fall of Socialism. The Czech airforce got rid of all of its MiG-29s after the separation of Czechoslovakia. They traded them off to Slovakia for some extra MiG-21s. Certainly the Czechs could have sold one or two.
On an earlier time scale, what about the Illyushin IL-28 Beagle? It found its way into the service of nations who were not so directly under the Soviet Union's sphere of influence and who might not have been averse to a purchase deal from the west (like Nigeria or Egypt).
As for the MiG-23 and 27, I would think procuring one or two of them would be no big deal at all with an ally like India being a major user of both types.
Was Peru not a user of the Sukhoi SU-7 and SU-17 fighters? If so, how possible would it have been to buy one or two off of them?
QuoteAlso,maybe the Army could have some real Ka-50s or Mi-28s to go with those Hinds.
The US Army has been trying to acquire a Ka-50/Ka-52 through legal means since the late 90's. They've already got three Mi-24/25/35's, plus an Mi-14 and Ka-28 (civvie version probably, as it has no radome) that they use OPFOR training.
And why must we defend Lake Huron with Ekranoplanes? The Canadians are our friends, or so I'm told to say by Toad and Rally. We must welcome our Moose riding conquerors from the north (or east, or west, or south, depending where in Michigan you're at when they come over).
And don't forget about the J-10 that defected to Taiwan. Yes, I know it hasn't happened and probably won't, but that plane would look cool in tiny US markings.
Su-15 Flagons, the international condemnation that fallows the shot down of KAL 007 leads many pilots from the regiment that was responseable to fear they will be sent to the gulags. So many of them defect to Japan and Alaska, a few but not all there aircraft are returned to mother Russia.
The crack down against the Tiananmen Square protestors plunged China into a short but bitter Civil War. Millions of Chinese fled the country and numerious pliots of the PLAAF/PLAN defected to Japan, Taiwan, the Phillippines, and Thailand. Large numbers of J-7 Fishbeds, J-8 Finbacks, Q-5 Fantans, along with a couple Kong Jiang-1 (Tu-4 AWACS) would make there way to the US.
Maybe thw US would have gotten its hands on a few Yak-38 Forgers from the Ukrain as well.
Another source for Badgers would've been Egypt after the '79 Camp David accords. The Egyptians were the source of most of the MiGs and Sukhois the Red Hats flew in the '80s, though not all. I'd bet the AF attache in Cairo got a chance to go over a Badger during that time.
Incidentally, the Army has attempted to acquire fixed-wing aircraft for the adversary roles at Fort Irwin, Fort Bliss, and Fort Polk. An Su-25 or two would suit the role perfectly (and since there were Frogfoots a plenty found in Iraq after OIF-1, though they'd been either dumped in the desert or buried (one of Saddam's wacky orders was to bury many of the Iraqi AF's fast jets under tarps and then cover them with sand). Several MiG-25s were uncovered at Al-Taqqadim AB and brought back to the States for evaluation; one of them is to be restored and put on display at the USAF Museum. These were the RB (reconissance bomber) variant as well as the Foxbat-A/E versions. Supposedly the Aussie SAS (which found a number of other Foxbats at Al-Asad AB) took several aircraft home with them as war trophies-I recall a news story where the SAS men were quoted as saying that they wanted to ship a MiG-25 home for the Australian War Memorial. Other museums here in the States and maybe England, as well, would like to have a Foxbat or MiG-29 once the AF is finished with them. The AF Museum will also get one of the ex-Moldovan Fulcrums, if they haven't already.
The MiG-17 at the AF Museum was flown to Homestead AFB in '69 by a Cuban defector. It was one of several flown at Nellis in the early '70s. Heads rolled at NORAD after the guy landed; he wasn't detected on radar until he showed up in the base traffic pattern! There were F-4s there (31st TFTW for conversion training) and all he did was just follow an F-4 flight in and landed right behind them. All other MiGs (21s and 23s) flown to Florida by Cuban defectors were returned-after they'd been throughly examined and every inch photographed.
:P The Orlyonok is necessary to defend against American Smugglers illegally importing MacIntosh's Toffee. American Obesity has reached dangerous levels and that fantastic toffee.........well..........it's contributing to the problem....... :wub: :wub: :wub:
:cheers: and :wacko: as always,
Daryl J.
Suppose the Russians had Red Hats? (I don't belive they did, it would be public knowledge by now.)
F4's and F14's from Iran, F5's from Vietnam, Hunters from Jordan or India.
I was trying to think of some of the Non Mig aircraft the US has/may face.
Mirage F1
Mirage 2000
Mirage V
Any others?
The USN & USMC operated F-21A Kfir's for just this purpose, to act as Agressors & just happened to be based on the Mirage.
Mirages & etendards looted by us Brits after the Falklands may well be a possibility, & just about the whole Soviet arsenal was during the Afghan war.
If we're going daft how about a Tu-144 to evaluate Soviet high mach capability? After all NASA did eventually get hold of one, if totally legally. And of course, the plot by the CIA & MI6 to steal a real MiG-31 is well documentated.... :lol:
Only to find out that the pilot who stole it was a complete nut, and had to be "handled" by String & Dom: Airwolf vs Firefox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrPkJrW5zc)
Shas B)
QuoteSuppose the Russians had Red Hats? (I don't belive they did, it would be public knowledge by now.)
F4's and F14's from Iran, F5's from Vietnam, Hunters from Jordan or India.
Now that's an idea! I like it! B)
QuoteOnly to find out that the pilot who stole it was a complete nut, and had to be "handled" by String & Dom: Airwolf vs Firefox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDrPkJrW5zc)
Shas B)
Nice find Shas! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Definately Made My Day! :D
how about American engineers building a Fantan with a radar to see whether it would be any good ; say would it better than an Fishbed ?
QuoteSuppose the Russians had Red Hats? (I don't belive they did, it would be public knowledge by now.)
F4's and F14's from Iran, F5's from Vietnam, Hunters from Jordan or India.
I do recall reading somewhere about Soviets evaluating F-5s from VietNam. They claim to have found the F-5 "efficient but not of interest."
Now hows about a:
V-Bomber or (in whiffland) TSR.2 getting lost and finding itself trapped in the Russian half of the Kola peninsula. :blink: Imagine a Vulcan sitting around covered in moss and bird doo-doo in Monino.
Luftwaffe Tornado gets lost and lands in East Germany, then gets repatriated during reunification.
B-52 splash-lands nice and gentle in very shallow water off the N. Vietnamese coast. Gets salvaged right before sinking.
QuoteSuppose the Russians had Red Hats? (I don't belive they did, it would be public knowledge by now.)
F4's and F14's from Iran, F5's from Vietnam, Hunters from Jordan or India.
There are blurry, black and white photos of an F-14 in Soviet markings, though nowadays that's easy to fake using Photoship.
JoeP
For DACM, the US had a few TSR.2's to dash about with the American F-12's right?
Daryl J.