What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: Hobbes on November 04, 2006, 07:55:50 AM

Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Hobbes on November 04, 2006, 07:55:50 AM
Kit page (http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/on/hd/hd.htm)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Funicraftmodels%2Fon%2Fhd%2Fhd-box.jpg&hash=30d515cb336805ee31d47d711521654ae4e12b9a)

:wub:  
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on November 04, 2006, 10:49:58 AM
What the frack is this???  :blink:  :blink:

I never heard about that!! Was it a fictional plane, or a test vehicule in order to developp the F-117, something like that??

Well, if it ever flew over Area 51, I understand why so much people in the place saw Flying Saucers!! ;)  
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Archibald on November 04, 2006, 11:05:35 AM
I heard about this thing in Le Fana (article on the F-117 in 1999).

well, this thing was the most stealth form the computers could produced at the time of the F-117.
It's an early variant of the F-117, (something like the first drawing leading to it) abandoned because it was simply non flyable :lol: .
So they added real wings, V-tail, bomb bay and obtained the Have Blue in 1977 and later the F-117.
Le Fana translated that by "l'impossible diamant".

Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Mossie on November 04, 2006, 11:06:35 AM
Yep, the hopeless diamond was proven by Lockheed to be the best possible shapes to scatter radar, from this shape the Have Blue was developed which used the hopless diamond concept as much as is possible in a flyable aircraft & from that the F-117 which uses the shape operationally, albeit only just functionally!

The Hopeless Diamond would have been useless as an aircraft without at least some changes.  I've seen some drawings that shows it was at the very least part of Lockheeds design process, although I find it very hard to beleive it was ever a practical proposal.  Have blue was more or less Hopless Diamond with wings & tail.

Here's a diagram showing plan views of the F-117's development, Hopless Diamond, Have Blue, F-117A & F-117X:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FF117development.jpg&hash=518078764f101ace90dedd0485e97622625f3822)
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Captain Canada on November 04, 2006, 12:35:06 PM
Neat, but man, what a boring kit that would be ! Might as well just chop up a -117.

Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Archibald on November 04, 2006, 12:42:54 PM
Mossie, this pic was in the magazine I mentionned in my post (le Fana de l'aviation, June 1999). That's really the same picture!!!  
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Archibald on November 04, 2006, 12:44:24 PM
QuoteNeat, but man, what a boring kit that would be ! Might as well just chop up a -117.
nope, just made it from cardboard, using strong glue and plastic bottle! That's how I made my Lampyridae  ^_^
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: BlackOps on November 04, 2006, 07:37:13 PM
Kinda neat but I can't imagine a better candidate for a scratch build.  I know that scratch building isn't everyones cup of tea but if you were ever going to give it a go this would be a perfect choice.

Now I want to see more of that 117X how come we never got those, they look pretty spiffy!
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Mossie on November 05, 2006, 04:48:12 AM
More F-117X?  Happy to oblige!

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FF-117X01.gif&hash=ebf8cdf275b1eb93c5d90870c71b361efbc5608f)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FF-117X02.gif&hash=7fd590a83cad1abea2129c73476801d3785d8613)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FF-117X03.jpg&hash=1cb0a315c773f740553dd376db093aad1295540b)

The F-117X was an extension of the F-117N programme for a Carrier based F-117 variant.  The F-117N was rejected (I think it was largely a beefed up F-117 for Naval ops with less wing sweep).  Lockheed then proposed the F-117X & congress apparently set aside some money for a prototype, so wether this has flown or is due to fly I have no idea.  A lot of emphasis was made on improving the flying charateristics, new engines & an all clear canopy with no framing for improved visibility.

This one might be of interest to some as well, I didn't know about it until I started searching but apparently the F-117 was proposed to the RAF (possibly as the F-117C), with some improvements & changes to incorporate UK systems & structures.  No idea if this was a real proprosal or just web rumour:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FAircraft%2FF-117CRAF.jpg&hash=c6da594229c01c2475e29e86618df7c1b5cbdec5)

PS Archie, didn't mean to step on your toes, it seems we posted at about the same time!
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Archibald on November 05, 2006, 05:22:03 AM
What problem ???  ^_^

nice pictures...
still from Le Fana of 1999, I remember they talked about a proposal to the RAF...

:tornado:

Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: BlackOps on November 05, 2006, 09:21:21 AM
Cool! I hadn't seen those before, thanks for sharing. :)
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: B777LR on November 05, 2006, 09:58:17 AM
Speaking of F-117, the retirement of them begins this year, and all are to be retired by next year :(  
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Mossie on November 05, 2006, 03:51:32 PM
Kind of asks the question, what will (has?) replace it?  F-22's in a strike role are the proposed replacement, but this doesn't seem quite right to me.  Maybe the FB-23 that we all know is already in service?!?!? :D  
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Son of Damian on November 05, 2006, 03:55:57 PM
QuoteSpeaking of F-117, the retirement of them begins this year, and all are to be retired by next year  :(

Actually all are supposed to be out of service by 2008. If the USAF/DOD/USGOV is smart they will pass them on to some other country that can squeeze some more life out of them, UK, France, Australia, Japan, Korea, etc., etc.
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Archibald on November 06, 2006, 12:03:58 AM
Quote
QuoteSpeaking of F-117, the retirement of them begins this year, and all are to be retired by next year  :(

Actually all are supposed to be out of service by 2008. If the USAF/DOD/USGOV is smart they will pass them on to some other country that can squeeze some more life out of them, UK, France, Australia, Japan, Korea, etc., etc.
And that could be very, very cool. Hmm I still have French and British roundels, with some desert pink...
now I have to go, because you give me  ideas to recycle my old F-117! c'est malin!!!  :lol:  
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: B777LR on November 06, 2006, 03:08:36 AM
Quote
Quote
QuoteSpeaking of F-117, the retirement of them begins this year, and all are to be retired by next year  :(

Actually all are supposed to be out of service by 2008. If the USAF/DOD/USGOV is smart they will pass them on to some other country that can squeeze some more life out of them, UK, France, Australia, Japan, Korea, etc., etc.
And that could be very, very cool. Hmm I still have French and British roundels, with some desert pink...
now I have to go, because you give me  ideas to recycle my old F-117! c'est malin!!!  :lol:
They wont be passed on, they will go in AMARC, waiting for the next world war...
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Madoc on November 06, 2006, 01:52:11 PM
Folks,

The F-117 was a truly cutting edge weapon back in the 80's and into the 90's.  No longer so now though.  There are a number of UAV's currently fielded or soon to be fielded which can do much of the job that the Nighthawk did.  

I don't think the F-117 is going to be retired in 2008 but it will be retired before its previously anticipated date of 2018.

The F-22's and JSF's will be well into operational status by then and they'll be quite able to handle the Nighthawk's missions with ease.

As to foreign sales, I rather doubt that.

First off, the only potential customers are ones that are already in line to buy the JSF and F-22.  Thus, why would they want to spend money they don't have to buy a mostly obsolete weapon system when they've already paid for getting something newer and better?

Also, the USAF is retiring the F-117 because the thing is getting _very_ long in tooth.  The initial buy of the aircraft was small and that has always meant for higher operational costs.  This has only gotten worse as the decades have rolled by.

Frankly, there's better and cheaper solutions out there now so I'm kinda suprised the F-117 has been retained as long as it has.

Madoc
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 06, 2006, 02:01:50 PM
Why is it retired?, is it not good?
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on November 06, 2006, 02:08:44 PM
The F-22 just enter the service in USAF... And it is (or it will soon be) able to carry a greater air-to-ground payload than the F-117...
Moreover, it is faster, has a better range and it is more stealth...

Add to that al the future UCAV the Air Force will have and the F-35A, and you'll understand that why the USAF don't want to pay anymore for a very expensive aircraft who do a job that the new planes do better and for cheaper!!


So, the F-117 is still good, but not as good as the cheaper and more able new planes/UCAVs...
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Madoc on November 06, 2006, 02:12:47 PM
YM,

QuoteWhy is it retired?, is it not good?

The F-117 is not retired now.  The latest round of budgeting for the Air Force calls for the plane to be retired sooner than its previously anticipated date in 2018.

The aircraft works well enough now.  The problem is that the type is becoming increasingly expensive to operate.  The planes are all getting old, there were never that many of the things to begin with, parts were always expensive and have since gotten more so.

As a first generation stealth aircraft, its design was optimized toward stealth at the expense of operational considerations.  That means that the type is inherently more difficult to work on and keep flying than otherwise.  The succeeding stealth aircraft designs benefited from the increase in knowledge about designing and building stealth aircraft such that they could be even more stealthy while also being easier to maintain and operate.

The JSF and the F-22 are second/ third generation stealth machines and are much more capable from the start.  They're also far less expensive and difficult to operate than the F-117.

The only thing of note in all this is that the F-117's will be replaced sooner than expected.  They are still in service now and will remain so for the next several years.

Madoc
Title: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Archibald on November 07, 2006, 12:23:22 AM
Now that's an idea... change the F-117 into UCAVs (interim UCAV wiating for the X-45 and X-47 :) )  
Title: Re: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: GTX on December 30, 2009, 01:23:17 PM
Has anyone got a decent quality 3-view drawing of the Hopless Diamond?

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Hopeless Diamond
Post by: Hobbes on December 30, 2009, 01:31:03 PM
Quote from: GTX on December 30, 2009, 01:23:17 PM
Has anyone got a decent quality 3-view drawing of the Hopless Diamond?

Regards,

Greg

Will the one on the Unicraft page do?

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geocities.com%2Funicraftmodels%2Fon%2Fhd%2Fhd-dr.jpg&hash=c86e6a54d15e1ecf09ba6ffd2a0d818d17796478)