What if

GROUP BUILDS => 2019 Group Builds => The Knackers Yard => The Out of Retirement G.B. => Topic started by: sandiego89 on November 22, 2019, 07:24:31 pm

Title: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: sandiego89 on November 22, 2019, 07:24:31 pm
F-102 Delta Dagger, used to support F-117 Stealth Fighter design, development and training.

In 1979, as the team was being assembled for the F-117 stealth fighter program, it was recognized that a support and cover aircraft was desired to test systems, develop routes, and to prepare pilots for intense night flying work.  A low key aircraft, with a easy to explain cover story, was desired.  Several aircraft were considered including the T-38, F-4 and A-7, but the F-102 Delta Dagger which had last seen active service with the Hawaii Air National Guard in 1976 before retirement had some advantages:

 - The internal weapons bay:  As internal weapons bays were a key aspect of maintaining the stealthy profile of the F-117, the F-102 could test the tracking and targeting systems, test internal carriage of laser guided munitions, the trapeze, release characteristics and by containing the weapons internally help disguise the true attack mission of the stealth "fighter".
-  The QF-102 (and PQM-102A and PQM-102B) was still being used for manned and unmanned target duties as was a fairly common sight at Tyndall Florida and on the western ranges near Holloman, Nellis and other ranges, and provided a good cover story. While most activities would take place in the western ranges near Groom Lake, any F-102 sighting or rumors could be explained as routine QF-102 target drone activity. F-102's being pulled out of the boneyard could be hidden as additional drone conversions.   
- Performance.  The configuration, Delta wing and relatively high takeoff and landing speeds were judged to be a good representative on anticipated flight characteristics of the highly swept F-117.
- Familiarity.  There was still an adequate supply of F-102 airframes, spares and some pilots and maintainers, and cross support was available under the QF/PQM-102 programs. 

It is believed that around twenty F-102's were eventually involved in the Have Blue, Senior Trend and F-117 development programs, and served in test, chase, training and continuation support roles.  Several unconfirmed reports suggest several airframes, with their highly accurate targeting systems, were used for actual combat missions, where the use of actual F-117's was deemed too politically sensitive.   

1/72 Minicraft F-102
1/72 Heller F-117
Various 1/72 weapon sets for Laser Guided munitions.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/67o6A4.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/JCEf2n.jpg)
             
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: comrade harps on November 23, 2019, 02:21:52 am
Sounds feasible (not that otherwise ever stooped anyone around here). :thumbsup:

- Familiarity.  There was still an adequate supply of F-102 airframes, spares and some pilots and maintainers, and cross support was available under the QF/PQM-102 programs. 
         

I'll add known radar cross-section and IR and acoustic signatures to the list of the familiar for comparisons during tests.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: sideshowbob9 on November 23, 2019, 02:22:47 am
I think this is a really good idea. Your reasons for selecting the 102 make perfectly good sense. Looking forward to see how this pans out.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: NARSES2 on November 23, 2019, 02:30:00 am
I think this is a really good idea. Your reasons for selecting the 102 make perfectly good sense. Looking forward to see how this pans out.

Saves me thinking of the correct words  ;) Looking forward to this  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: Rheged on November 23, 2019, 09:16:47 am
A very plausible scenario.  I'm impressed.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: sandiego89 on November 23, 2019, 09:35:07 am
Thank you all for the encouragement!  Glad you found it plausible!

Commencing work, the minicraft F-102 looks basic but good. 

Only had older Mk 82/83/84- Paveway 1 laser guided bombs in the stash (with large fixed rear fins).  They will not fit in the bay, so I just placed an order for a set of bombs including a series of the Paveway 2 that have the folding rear fins.  Should just fit. 

F-102 with Italeri Mk 82 laser guided bomb, original minicraft Falcon and Italeri Maverick. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/vYDRhf.jpg)

Weapons bay with instructions showing trapeze launchers

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/7JIXsi.jpg)



Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 23, 2019, 01:20:29 pm
Whatever you do, DON'T even try and build one side with the weapons bay doors closed!

They don't fit at all, and you'll be in for the biggest PSR job on the planet!  :banghead:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: Rheged on November 23, 2019, 01:48:20 pm
Whatever you do, DON'T even try and build one side with the weapons bay doors closed!

They don't fit at all, and you'll be in for the biggest PSR job on the planet!  :banghead:

I wonder how he knows that?
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 23, 2019, 01:50:48 pm
Whatever you do, DON'T even try and build one side with the weapons bay doors closed!

They don't fit at all, and you'll be in for the biggest PSR job on the planet!  :banghead:

I wonder how he knows that?


To use a 'Zneratism', DON'T ask me how I know this!  :banghead:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: sandiego89 on November 23, 2019, 02:08:42 pm
Whatever you do, DON'T even try and build one side with the weapons bay doors closed!

They don't fit at all, and you'll be in for the biggest PSR job on the planet!  :banghead:

Thank you for the warning! The doors looked pretty iffy as soon as saw them. Wish the kit came with closed door options.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 23, 2019, 03:36:14 pm
Whatever you do, DON'T even try and build one side with the weapons bay doors closed!

They don't fit at all, and you'll be in for the biggest PSR job on the planet!  :banghead:

Thank you for the warning! The doors looked pretty iffy as soon as saw them. Wish the kit came with closed door options.


At one time, waaaaaay back when, someone did do them as an add-on, but I can't remember who. Deltabits maybe?
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: sandiego89 on November 26, 2019, 02:56:29 pm
Wings on, still waiting for my folding fin laser guided bombs, but they should fit. 

Splurged on the weapon loading set, those bombs aren't' going to load themselves!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/pvdaKE.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/HRmlw2.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/waetRn.jpg)

Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: Captain Canada on November 26, 2019, 04:43:04 pm
Looking good ! The one I currently have half-built has the doors closed. Just don't look directly at it and they're fine lol.

Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support
Post by: sandiego89 on November 28, 2019, 08:48:02 am
New load of smart bombs arrived! 

Lower profile with pop out fins will fit in the weapons bay.  Low profile bomb closest to camera compared to first generation paveway 1 with larger fixed fins.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/UCGPaE.jpg) 

500 pounder all snugged up in the bay.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/Mbsvzn.jpg)

Now what was Kit warning me about???? Could it be those ill-fitting weapons bay doors?   Why yes, yes it was.  I am a glutton....and Captain Canada encouraged me into it  ;)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/bFVzvn.jpg)
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *weapons bay*
Post by: PR19_Kit on November 28, 2019, 09:02:06 am
Wow, they look a lot better than the doors on my Duece!   :o

Perhaps a different generation moulding?
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *weapons bay*
Post by: NARSES2 on November 29, 2019, 06:39:37 am
Bombs a neat fit  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *weapons bay*
Post by: sandiego89 on November 29, 2019, 02:42:34 pm
Thinking about a bit of IR suppression.  Not sure if it will make it on the final build, but the packaging tube for Krazy glue, my go to superglue, is a good fit. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/LbJOqP.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/aAEPMn.jpg)

Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *weapons bay*
Post by: NARSES2 on November 30, 2019, 01:54:34 am
Thinking about a bit of IR suppression.  Not sure if it will make it on the final build, but the packaging tube for Krazy glue, my go to superglue, is a good fit. 


It is indeed
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *weapons bay*
Post by: sideshowbob9 on November 30, 2019, 03:00:02 am
Love the IR suppressor idea. If emulating the F-117As performance, reheat wouldn't really be needed all that much. May I suggest some kind of small blade antenna on the spine for secure comms/datalink/telemetry with their stealthy cousins?
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *weapons bay*
Post by: sandiego89 on December 01, 2019, 04:55:41 pm
Maybe the nose needs something. I made a RTV mold and cast a few resin F-102 noses to experiment.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/FUILoH.jpg)

 
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *weapons bay*
Post by: comrade harps on December 01, 2019, 05:28:16 pm
Maybe the nose needs something. I made a RTV mold and cast a few resin F-102 noses to experiment.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/FUILoH.jpg)

Just thinking that it wouldn't really need a radar, but would at least need to look like it had one. What it would need for F-117A training purposes is a FLIR.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *rhinoplasty?*
Post by: sandiego89 on December 02, 2019, 12:38:06 pm
I'd suggest looking at the Viggen for your IR suppression ideas.

Thanks Salt, the Viggen tailpipe is indeed an elegant piece of engineering - more for thrust reverse I believe but likely had some IR reduction benefits as well. I was thinking of something less sophisticated, like the Israeli A-4 tail pipe extensions or the U-2 “sugar scoop”.

Did a few Mirages or Cheetahs have extended tail pipes, or am I dreaming that? Others?
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *rhinoplasty?*
Post by: rickshaw on December 02, 2019, 04:17:51 pm
The A-4's tailpipe wasn't IR suppression but protection to the engine from IR missiles.  The Israelis found that IR missiles would litterally home in on the engine exhaust and often damage but not destroy the engine, so they thought making the missile explode further away would given them some measure of protection.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *rhinoplasty?*
Post by: Captain Canada on December 03, 2019, 06:05:25 am
Very cool. Nice work on the new noses. One of these days I'm going to have to try that resin copy thing !

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *rhinoplasty?*
Post by: sandiego89 on December 03, 2019, 03:49:31 pm
Very cool. Nice work on the new noses. One of these days I'm going to have to try that resin copy thing !

 :thumbsup:

Thank you. I was very intimidated to try my first stabs at RTV mold making and then casting with 2 part resin, but now that I have done a few my confidence is growing and I am hooked. Simple shapes like this F-102 radome just require a one piece mold that maybe took me 10 minutes to glue together some scratch styrene into a square shape box to create the mold. Stuffed some play dough to fill the radome then poured the RTV mold material over the radome. Let sit overnight, then popped the radome out. Now had the mold, and could pop out resin copies all day long (30 second mix time, pour, then I let sit for a few hours).   

Give it a try!
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *nose*
Post by: sandiego89 on December 08, 2019, 10:36:05 am
Nose work.  The F-117 had two targeting/designating FLIR's, one in the nose and one under the nose, these were first trialed on the F-102's used in the development program. 

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/A6U3ml.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/m99Dpu.jpg)
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *nose*
Post by: Captain Canada on December 09, 2019, 07:44:27 pm
Thanks for the tips ! I mean noses. No, tips.... :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *nose*
Post by: sandiego89 on December 14, 2019, 02:22:58 pm
Black, but will have a bit of disruption in the scheme....

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/7Nb1Ae.jpg)
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: Dizzyfugu on December 15, 2019, 03:39:05 am
I cannot help it, but this thing cries for Red Stars...  ;)
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 15, 2019, 05:06:50 am

I cannot help it, but this thing cries for Red Stars...  ;)


Because it's in black?  ;D
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: Rheged on December 15, 2019, 05:55:58 am
It would suit  1950's RAF fighter squadron markings, similar to Hunters.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: kitnut617 on December 15, 2019, 06:21:22 am
Interestingly (and as an aside), I've been reading over on the SPF, that the USAF has been using F-117's recently in the aggressor role ---- some have been spotted operating in that role -- aaannnd photographed
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: kerick on December 15, 2019, 10:36:01 am
That bird looks great in black! A version with red stars would be amazing.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: sandiego89 on December 15, 2019, 11:36:51 am
Interestingly (and as an aside), I've been reading over on the SPF, that the USAF has been using F-117's recently in the aggressor role ---- some have been spotted operating in that role -- aaannnd photographed

Yes F-117’s have been photographed flying in recent years, supposedly for verification of the long term storage efficacy, but some rumors that @4 went to the mid-East in 2016 for some operations. Another fascinating angle to the F-117 history perhaps.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: Dizzyfugu on December 15, 2019, 11:46:03 pm

I cannot help it, but this thing cries for Red Stars...  ;)


Because it's in black?  ;D

It has this Sixties US movie vibe - like an unpdated sister of the XF-92 which was abused as a MiG, too...

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTZIbacwYvoHqVMj8KbrkJLjMmUTxRKx2WJnm-R8dZyev2YLhJY)

In black, it has a certain "Top Gun" appeal, too!
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *nose*
Post by: ChernayaAkula on December 16, 2019, 01:49:25 am
Black, but will have a bit of disruption in the scheme....

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/7Nb1Ae.jpg)

The masking tape gives the wings an almost MiG-19-ish look. Nice!  :thumbsup: Just needs appropriate tailplanes.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *paint*
Post by: sandiego89 on January 01, 2020, 01:03:34 pm
back at it, was in California for Christmas. 

Moved the starboard trapeze back a bit, the laser guided bombs are a bit longer than the Falcon Missiles.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/M6Gzx3.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/8E068n.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/924/36cyqQ.jpg)



Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: sandiego89 on January 18, 2020, 12:08:25 pm
F-102 used for F-117 development, training and support.  Tonopah Test Range, Nevada, 1983.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/zOWIwH.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/3ruLGa.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/VSprz2.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/pgFJb7.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/mhhzCI.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/TQhWTG.jpg)
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: Hobbes on January 18, 2020, 12:15:09 pm
oh wow, that's excellent.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: Knightflyer on January 18, 2020, 12:29:42 pm
oh wow, that's excellent.

I must echo the above sentiment, just love the faux-F117 paint scheme, it caught my eye at first look  :wub:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 18, 2020, 01:31:32 pm
Oh yes, VERY clever.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: kitnut617 on January 18, 2020, 02:03:52 pm
Brilliant idea  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: DogfighterZen on January 18, 2020, 04:58:37 pm
That looks so good...  :wub: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: Weaver on January 18, 2020, 11:20:09 pm
That looks good - I love deceptive cammo schemes.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: TomZ on January 18, 2020, 11:37:57 pm
Great idea and very well executed!

TomZ
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: zenrat on January 19, 2020, 01:22:25 am
Good one mate.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: Old Wombat on January 19, 2020, 06:07:15 am
Good one mate. :thumbsup:
Great idea and very well executed!

+1 on both counts! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: NARSES2 on January 19, 2020, 07:26:25 am
Oh yes, VERY clever.  :thumbsup:

Indeed, fooled me for one  :bow:
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: kitbasher on January 19, 2020, 07:37:47 am
 :thumbsup:

Now given the F-117's links to the A-7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonopah_Test_Range_Airport#F-117A_Nighthawk_Program) it'd be good to see a SLUF in that colour scheme.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: loupgarou on January 20, 2020, 08:13:15 am
Beautiful, and the paint scheme is brilliant.
Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: Captain Canada on January 20, 2020, 08:47:45 am
That's awesome ! For sure the camo is wicked. Love the way this one looks. The new nose is certainly a mice touch.

Title: Re: F-102, stealth fighter "cover" and support *finished*
Post by: sandiego89 on January 20, 2020, 09:39:55 am
Thank you everyone.  A few more pictures.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/G32gGm.jpg)

Disruptive scheme replicated on the belly.  Some rancher sees a highly swept black stealth fighter?  Naw, it was probably just one of those funny painted QF-102's...maybe a MiG-19???

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/xBwfWR.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/P8hn7e.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/kKXJmQ.jpg)

You can just make out the second seeker/designator under the nose.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/6XmAbf.jpg)