What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: AS.12 on March 22, 2017, 01:59:27 pm

Title: Westland Lynx
Post by: AS.12 on March 22, 2017, 01:59:27 pm
A few snippets from Flight about the Sikorsky Lynx submission for the LAMPS competition.

August 1970

Westland's Lamps Proposal Sikorsky Aircraft Division of United Aircraft Corp and Westland Aircraft
jointly announced on July 22 that they were negotiating an agreement for a marketing programme
to present the Westland WG.13 in the United States as Sikorsky's candidate for the US Navy's proposed
light airborne multi-purpose system (Lamps).

Also:

The US Navy's Lamps requirement for an off-the-shelf utility helicopter is proving difficult to satisfy
because of the restricted hangar size (26ft) available on destroyers. The Bolkow 105 is too small to
satisfy the requirement, while two WG.13s cannot be accommodated without structure-folding.

January 1971

General Electric is negotiating with Rolls-Royce Small Engine Division for the licence to build the
RS.360 turboshaft engine. The application is the WG.13 helicopter, being submitted by Sikorsky
for the US Navy's Lamps competition.

[ Note: RS.360 is correct, that being the commercial designation for the BS.360-07 engine ]

June 1971

Sikorsky is very pleased with the performance of the Lynx and its BS.360 powerplants, although United
Aircraft is pushing very hard for two PT6s to be fitted for the Lamps competition.


[ There was then a long gap as the US Navy contracted Kaman to supply Interim LAMPS Seasprites ]

January 1977

Sikorsky and disappointed Uttas contender Boeing Vertol will square up again in the US Navy competition 
for a new anti-submarine warfare helicopter, the Light Airborne Multi-Purpose System (Lamps) Mk 3. That
competition, to be decided by April, involves both Uttas entries and the Westland Lynx. The winner will
produce 204 helicopters.


September 1977

[ By this point Westland appears to have been running its own bid, though how production would be arranged is not specified ]

The losers in the competition are Westland Helicopters, whose offer of an off-the-shelf Lynx was earlier
turned down by the USN on the grounds that the helicopter was too small, and Avco Lycoming. The engine
manufacturer was included in the competition at a late stage to allow evaluation of a version of the engine
used in the XM-1 tank.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: AS.12 on March 22, 2017, 02:12:31 pm
Some clarification on the later Lynx LAMPS proposal from Aviation Week.  Seems that Westland and Sikorsky had parted ways even before the UTTAS decision.

September 1976

“Our main pitch in the United States is now the Lynx, which is still being considered in the LAMPS competition,
mostly because its competitors have just become too large and the U. S. Navy has a need for a smaller LAMPS,”
Blackwell explained.

“We are also getting some help in this direction by having Lynx as part of the British participation in the two-way
street of defense sales between Europe and the U. S., and as part of a joint memorandum of understanding between
the U. S. and Britain on procurement imbalances between our two countries."

Westland is after a portion of the Navy requirement for 200 LAMPS machines. and is acting on its own instead of
in partnership with Sikorsky. The pitch is that the U.S. Navy can get two Lynx machines for the price of one LAMPS
as now defined, and gains in flexibility of armament. The other option being pushed is that the U. S. Navy needs
an anti-submarine warfare helicopter of Lynx size for its small frigates.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: AS.12 on March 23, 2017, 03:40:58 am
I haven't found any other references to this feature, mentioned in Aviation Week May 1971:


Another military feature which will be carried into a civil design is the Lynx skid landing gear
which has a self-leveling feature for landing on rough fields and uneven terrain.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 23, 2017, 08:45:30 am

Another military feature which will be carried into a civil design is the Lynx skid landing gear
which has a self-leveling feature for landing on rough fields and uneven terrain.


That's mentioned on one of the plaques describing the civil WG30 that's in the Helicopter Museum at Weston-Super-Mare, but there's no sign of the actual gear itself anywhere. Mind you, the museum have the entire world's collection of WG30s currently so maybe it's on one of the others.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: KiwiZac on March 23, 2017, 08:00:13 pm
Gotta love the Lynx.

Back in the late 90s one of the trade/industry magazines said the Royal New Zealand Navy had chosen Lynx as the Wasp replacement, a role actually filled a couple of years later by the Seasprite: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-zealand-navy-chooses-lynx-11820/ Our defence force does love to hold on to and upgrade old kit so this could be a fun one for someone.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 24, 2017, 03:02:32 am
The FAA Lynxs went out of service just a week ago.

They held a celebration 'Last Flight' around the south of England last Friday, but sadly I was in N Ireland and couldn't see it.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: Thorvic on March 24, 2017, 03:08:14 am
The FAA Lynxs went out of service just a week ago.

They held a celebration 'Last Flight' around the south of England last Friday, but sadly I was in N Ireland and couldn't see it.

It formerly retired yesterday at Yeovilton with its final flights and the retirement of the type

http://forces.net/news/navy/royal-navy-bids-farewell-lynx-after-40-years-service (http://forces.net/news/navy/royal-navy-bids-farewell-lynx-after-40-years-service)
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: DarrenP2 on March 24, 2017, 10:58:54 am
do pakistan still fly them?

but would have been nice to see the lynx in a few nations colours. New Zealand being one both Land and Sea Versions. Ireland instead of the Dauphin and to replace the Aoulette III. Australian Army replacing the Kiowa. Australian Navy instead of Seasprite. Rhodesian Airforce replacing the Aoulette III. Canada instead of the Kiowa in Airforce in Europe.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 24, 2017, 11:12:48 am
LOADS of people still fly them even now, it's just the FAA ones that stopped this week.

According to Wikipedia (and who am I to imagine they're wrong.....  ;D) The British Army still fly them here, plus Algeria, Brazil, Denmark, France, Germany, Malaysia, Oman, Portugal, South Africa, South Korea and Thailand.

And Argentina  :o, The Netherlands, Nigeria, Norway and Pakistan used to fly them.

That's potentially a pretty hefty decal sheet for someone to put out.  ;)
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: Thorvic on March 24, 2017, 12:54:29 pm
To be perfectly honest its just the Lynx HAS8 and HAS3 that's retired to be replaced by a new model Lynx now called the Wildcat
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 24, 2017, 01:13:15 pm
Indeed, but both the Navy and Westlands, or whatever they call themselves these days, are treating the Wildcat as if it's no relation to the Lynx, when it patently obviously is.  :banghead:
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: Thorvic on March 24, 2017, 01:17:20 pm
Indeed, but both the Navy and Westlands, or whatever they call themselves these days, are treating the Wildcat as if it's no relation to the Lynx, when it patently obviously is.  :banghead:

Well Augusta Westland started out calling it the Lynx Wildcat, The Forces adopted just the Wildcat name to as not to confuse with the legacy Lynx and Leonardo changed it too.

Now we just need a decent kit of the AW159 Wildcat  :mellow:
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: DarrenP2 on March 25, 2017, 05:04:57 am
been nice to see some civilian versions to like Police helicopters  or air ambulances
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: KiwiZac on March 26, 2017, 01:07:35 pm
Would it be big enough to work as an ambulance? With the speed and agility of the type it'd be great for a Police chopper.....great, now I have to find an Army skidded Lynx kit.

Now we just need a decent kit of the AW159 Wildcat  :mellow:
Amen. It's a neat-looking bit of kit.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: DarrenP2 on April 01, 2017, 07:51:15 am
look at some of the helocopters used by air ambulances like the a109 or the ec135 you are usually carrying 1 patient
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: DarrenP2 on April 01, 2017, 07:57:03 am
military VIP helicopter?
Arctic/Antarctic research support aircraft?
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: Thorvic on April 01, 2017, 08:06:13 am
military VIP helicopter?
Arctic/Antarctic research support aircraft?

Technically the RN HAS 3 (ICE) was an Antarctic Research Support Aircraft as they replaced the Wasp on Endurance and Polar Circle the Protector bought to replace Polar Circle/Endurance only has a Helo pad and no hanger facilities so the Variant was dropped and not replaced by a Wildcat variant.

Still would look good in the full British Antarctic Survey scheme with  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: DarrenP2 on April 02, 2017, 01:31:37 am
did also think the cousteau institute as well
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: Thorvic on April 02, 2017, 02:58:06 am
Going back to the Lynx

Lynx HT1 was supposed to be for the Royal Air Force as a training version to replace the Whirlwind - so colourful training schemes possible there from the 70s to now as well as some possibly in the RAF Helicopter Camo schemes.

Lynx AH6 a dedicated Royal Marines version of the Navy Lynx with Army Lynx weapon systems

Lynx Mk.22 - Unbuilt export version for the Egyptian Navy.
Lynx Mk.24 - Unbuilt export utility version for the Iraqi army.
Lynx Mk.26 - Unbuilt export armed version for the Iraqi army.
Lynx Mk.82 - Unbuilt export version for the Egyptian army.
Lynx Mk.83 - Unbuilt export version for the Saudi Arabian army.
Lynx Mk 84 - Unbuilt export version for the Qatar army.
Lynx Mk 85 - Unbuilt export version for the United Arab Emirates army.

Lynx-3 - Enhanced Lynx variant with Westland 30 tail boom and rotor, Gem 60 engines, new wheeled tricycle undercarriage and MIL-STD-1553 databus. Only one prototype built

Lots of potential for the Project cancelled there and lots of interesting desert schemes to play with, the Egyptian Navy Lynx might look rather cool next to the Egyptian Navy Sea kings in that medium blue colour they wore.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: RAFF-35 on April 02, 2017, 11:41:35 am
There's also the lynx AHC which sounds like it should look like a baby Hind-24 or something  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: DarrenP2 on April 02, 2017, 08:16:20 pm
couple of what if users

French Army
Danish Army replacing the OH6 and instead of the Ecureil
Dutch Airforce replacing the Aoulette III including the royal flight
Belgian Airforce instead of the A109
German Army instead of the Bo105
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: KiwiZac on April 19, 2017, 01:40:29 pm
And Argentina  :o
Only recently did I learn they flew them during the 1982 war! Last night I saw film of one flying over Stanley. Rather surreal!
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: Weaver on May 23, 2021, 10:26:10 pm
Just realized something: the missiles in the Airfix Army Lynx are the incredibly rare prototype Hawkswing, not HOT as is commonly assumed. The assumption comes because the early Bo.105 PAH-1 used two triple HOT tubes and the launchers on the Airfix Lynxs are superficially similar. However, closer inspection shows that the HOT tubes are carried on top of a common beam (they were later changed to a staggered arrangement), while the Lynx missiles are slung under individual miniature aircraft pylons.

As this picture from an airshow demonstrates, the underslung missiles were Hawkswing:

(http://www.globalaviationresource.com/reports/2011/military-aviation-westland-lynx-40th-anniversary/images/10.jpg)

Here's the Airfix Lynx and the Italeri PAH-1 for comparison:

(https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/5/9/0/209590-13833-62-pristine.jpg)(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/272191371426-0-1/s-l1000.jpg)

The Hawkswing tubes were also shorter and fatter than the HOT ones.

Hawkswing was the abortive attempt to make a helicopter-launched version of the successful Swingfire ATGW. It failed because Swingfire's main asset, it's ability to change cource by 90 deg right out of the launcher was only achieved by having a low initial speed, and that made it unsuitable for helicopter launch since it was exposed to the rotor downwash and pushed strongly off course for too long. It also had MACLOS guidance at a time when SACLOS was becoming the new norm. Adapting Swingfire to compensate for these factors would have made it effectively a new missile, and with TOW and HOT already in mass production and affordable, there was felt to be no need for it. The Army Air Corps eventually chose TOW instead.

Of course, in whiff-world things might have gone differently, with Hawkswing getting TCA/SACLOS guidance (which Swingfire did eventually) and a new motor. One immediate possibility that springs to mind is an AAC Gazelle with four missiles, since the roof-mounted sight used on the real thing (and included in the Airfix kit) was actually a minor adaption of the sight originally developed by Ferranti for Hawkswing.
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: Captain Canada on May 24, 2021, 07:38:12 am
Interesting stuff ! Never seen that pic before. Looks funny with three small windows, like it's trying to be a big chopper !
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: kitnut617 on May 24, 2021, 07:43:19 am
That's right Harold, I was only looking at my Airfix Army Lynx over the weekend and wondered what the tubes were for. Thanks for the very timely information, I'm going to use them on a project I have in mind for another PAH-2 contestant, a Bell Model 249 (or maybe it will be an advanced version) which appeared in the 1980 Farnborough Airshow  ;) .

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/e06ca3ee-bf56-4031-a0e1-c47641df6c17.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Lynx
Post by: JayBee on May 24, 2021, 08:33:25 am
Looks funny with three small windows, like it's trying to be a big chopper !

That is because it was one of the prototypes.  :rolleyes: