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Logistics GB Rules

Started by NARSES2, September 29, 2022, 06:40:02 AM

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jcf

Does it mean that if we don't get finished by the end of the GB that we can blame it on
"supply chain issues"?

;D :wacko:
"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

jcf

"NOTE: only in the military context does logistics include the transport of personnel.  Military transports are therefore
within the scope of the GB; however in a civilian context, pure passenger-carrying means of transport are NOT within
the GB's scope.".

What about passenger aircraft/trains/buses/boats etc. and ships chartered, or impressed, for the specific purpose of
transporting troops? 
:mellow: :wacko:
"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

NARSES2

Quote from: jcf on October 07, 2022, 12:29:05 PMWhat about passenger aircraft/trains/buses/boats etc. and ships chartered, or impressed, for the specific purpose of
transporting troops?
:mellow: :wacko:

What was that during the Falkland's - Ships taken up from trade. So Aircraft taken up from trade ?
Decals my @r$e!

Old Wombat

Quote from: NARSES2 on October 08, 2022, 06:35:55 AM
Quote from: jcf on October 07, 2022, 12:29:05 PMWhat about passenger aircraft/trains/buses/boats etc. and ships chartered, or impressed, for the specific purpose of
transporting troops?
:mellow: :wacko:

What was that during the Falkland's - Ships taken up from trade. So Aircraft taken up from trade ?

That line of thinking could also include the Qantas "Skippy Squadron" flights (over 600 of them) carried out by volunteer Qantas staff transporting troops too & from Vietnam.
Has a life outside of What-If & wishes it would stop interfering!

"The purpose of all War is Peace" - St. Augustine

veritas ad mortus veritas est

Captain Canada

We used to sail on the MV Atlantic Freighter when we worked in Newfoundland. I had always wondered with the name, if she was a sister ship to the Atlantic Conveyor. Interesting to read that she was used by the US navy during the Gulf War, so I guess they did have some commonality !

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Pelagitis
CANADA KICKS arse !!!!

Long Live the Commonwealth !!!
Vive les Canadiens !
Where's my beer ?

loupgarou

Quote from: jcf on October 07, 2022, 12:29:05 PM"NOTE: only in the military context does logistics include the transport of personnel.  Military transports are therefore
within the scope of the GB; however in a civilian context, pure passenger-carrying means of transport are NOT within
the GB's scope.".

What about passenger aircraft/trains/buses/boats etc. and ships chartered, or impressed, for the specific purpose of
transporting troops?
:mellow: :wacko:
Quote from: jcf on October 07, 2022, 12:29:05 PM"NOTE: only in the military context does logistics include the transport of personnel.  Military transports are therefore
within the scope of the GB; however in a civilian context, pure passenger-carrying means of transport are NOT within
the GB's scope.".

What about passenger aircraft/trains/buses/boats etc. and ships chartered, or impressed, for the specific purpose of
transporting troops?
:mellow: :wacko:

The french in Indochine used to charter/impress the DC-3 of local airlines for paratroops AND supply transport/drop. Even for bombing....
Owing to the current financial difficulties, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.

kitbasher

#21
Dear all,

Unsurprisingly the GB rules have generated interest in the GB and prompted much thought regarding what's in scope.  Tom and I have been through all of them (apologies for not yet replying to a couple of related PMs) and will be providing additional clarification in the next couple of days.  Tom's currently away for a few days with Mrs Z and I've been distracted by an earlier than anticipated arrival of grandson #3 and some other obligations.

We'll post the clarifications only in this thread, rather than the 'Discussions'/'Inspirations' threads.

Dave
What If? & Secret Project SIG member.
On the go: Beaumaris/Battle/Bronco/Barracuda/Corsair/Flatning/Hellcat IV/Hunter PR11/Hurricane IIb/Ice Cream Tank/JP T4/Jumo MiG-15/P1103 (early)/P1154-ish/PC-12/Phantom FG1/Sea Hawk T7/Spitfire XII/Twin Otter/Val/FrankenCOIN/Frankenfighter

PR19_Kit

Quote from: Captain Canada on October 08, 2022, 06:52:07 AMWe used to sail on the MV Atlantic Freighter when we worked in Newfoundland. I had always wondered with the name, if she was a sister ship to the Atlantic Conveyor. Interesting to read that she was used by the US navy during the Gulf War, so I guess they did have some commonality !


The 'Atlantic Conveyor' was one of six ships ordered by Cunard for their roll-on/roll-ff container services, but they were considerably larger than the 'Atlantic Freighter' being nearly 15000 GT opposed to 5500 GT for the 'Freighter'.
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

kerick

Remember your idea might be the most efficient logistics available in a certain area. In some places even pack animals might be the best logistics around. Or take a little time travel back to the "good old days" of mules, donkeys and camels.

BTW, the US Army mascot of a mule I can understand but why does the Navy have a goat? Did they keep goats on the ships for milk?
I'll meet you on the dark side of the moon.

Pellson

Quote from: kitbasher on October 08, 2022, 08:56:09 AMDear all,

Unsurprisingly the GB rules have generated interest in the GB and prompted much thought regarding what's in scope.  Tom and I have been through all of them (apologies for not yet replying to a couple of related PMs) and will be providing additional clarification in the next couple of days.  Tom's currently away for a few days with Mrs Z and I've been distracted by an earlier than anticipated arrival of grandson #3 and some other obligations.

We'll post the clarifications only in this thread, rather than the 'Discussions'/'Inspirations' threads.

Dave

No panic, mate. As usual, it seems most of the suggestions/questions are rather tongue-in-cheek and also somewhat self-explanatory.

I would also assume that, as usual, a well thought-out and written backstory could push almost anything through the gates of approval. Right?  ;)
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

jcf

Quote from: kerick on October 08, 2022, 06:02:52 PMRemember your idea might be the most efficient logistics available in a certain area. In some places even pack animals might be the best logistics around. Or take a little time travel back to the "good old days" of mules, donkeys and camels.

BTW, the US Army mascot of a mule I can understand but why does the Navy have a goat? Did they keep goats on the ships for milk?
Bill the Goat is the mascot of the United States Naval Academy, not the USN in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_the_Goat
"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

kerick

I'll meet you on the dark side of the moon.

McColm

Am I allowed to use 1/24 scale radio controlled vehicles which don't work and whiff them?

kitbasher

Quote from: McColm on October 11, 2022, 03:05:21 AMAm I allowed to use 1/24 scale radio controlled vehicles which don't work and whiff them?

Could you drop the Mods a quick PM with more details, please?
What If? & Secret Project SIG member.
On the go: Beaumaris/Battle/Bronco/Barracuda/Corsair/Flatning/Hellcat IV/Hunter PR11/Hurricane IIb/Ice Cream Tank/JP T4/Jumo MiG-15/P1103 (early)/P1154-ish/PC-12/Phantom FG1/Sea Hawk T7/Spitfire XII/Twin Otter/Val/FrankenCOIN/Frankenfighter

TomZ

Dear builders,

The GB rules have thrown up a number of forum posts and PMs seeking clarification on what was or wasn't in scope of the GB.   Thanks for these – some very good queries indeed (mostly concerning what 'logistics' means in a civilian context) - which we thought would be more easily answered through a single post, rather than multiple posts and PMs.

First off a quick recap of the definition of 'logistics' that appear in the rules – note the emphasis:

'Logistics is the process of planning and executing the efficient transportation and storage of goods from the point of origin to the point of consumption. The goal of logistics is to meet customer requirements in a timely, cost-effective manner.  Originally, logistics played the vital role of moving military personnel, equipment and goods. While logistics is as important as ever in the military, the term today is more commonly used in the context of moving commercial goods within the supply chain.'

In addition, www.corporatefinanceinstitute.com states that 'Logistics, or logistical planning, refers to the process that a business uses in order to coordinate its supply chain operations. It includes a wide variety of tasks and activities, such as managing how raw materials or inputs are acquired and transported to the business, how inventory and inputs are stored at the business' facilities, and how inventory is transported within the business and beyond.....Logistics can be thought of as the business function responsible for "getting the right item in the right quantity at the right time at the right place for the right price in the right condition to the right customer"'.

And if you're struggling to get to sleep at night, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistics has a lot to say on the matter!  This should hopefully further clarify what logistics means in a purely civilian context.

So, if your planned entry is for something (aircraft, spacecraft, ship, submarine, boat, train, truck, bus, beast (or human) of burden – whatever) that is clearly designed/intended for, or converted to, a logistics role as per the definitions, then it is in scope, otherwise....

1.  Something designed to fulfil a pure civilian passenger function is out of scope. 

2.  Civilian multi-purpose transports (aircraft, trucks, ships, etc) designed to be used for a mix of passengers AND freight or a mix of these can be in scope.  For example, a 'combi' aircraft (Combi aircraft - Wikipedia) or a 'bruck' (Bruck (vehicle) - Wikipedia) will be in scope but a passenger-only equivalent that may occasionally carry some parcels/freight in the hold/baggage compartment (or on the roof) is not.  Please do ensure that the finished item (for instance, by a company name or logo on the model/profile) and/or the backstory makes this "mixed" use very clear.  So a BEA Vanguard would be out, but a BEA Merchantman would be in.
We've been asked if we can give a minimum percentage of freight but we cannot. Let it be enough that a significant portion of the transport should consist of freight.
 
3.  A locomotive with freight car, a tractor with a freight cart, a truck with trailer is in scope as the freight purpose is clear from the combination.  However, a locomotive with just a passenger car is NOT in scope.  Ditto a bus with a baggage trailer – that's luggage not goods or freight.

4.  A tractor, locomotive or articulated truck's tractor unit in itself, without any rail cars, wagons, trailers would only be in scope when the model/profile and/or back story makes it clear that it is meant for the logistics role.

5.  Construction vehicles, industrial plant, wreckers or tow trucks (and their equivalents elsewhere on land or on sea)  are not in scope, but a vehicle designed for the job of transporting multiple other vehicles from a factory to a dealership is..

6.  MILITARY transport, whether for personnel or freight is IN scope. That includes a APCs / IFVs. A tank carrying one soldier is not logistics, so not in scope.

7.  Civilian vehicles/aircraft/ships impressed into military service or chartered/'taken into trade' are in scope BUT a civilian aircraft in camouflage (e.g.  BOAC in WW2) is not UNLESS its principle use is to move freight.  This needs to be explained either in backstory and/or the model/profile.  In a purely British context, a number of chartered civil aircraft carried military serials and markings during the 1950 (e.g. https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/356877-handley-page-hermes-iv-2.html) – these are in scope.

8.  'Goods' includes livestock and bulk farm produce, but not mail, nor personal items (including baggage).

To close, a gentle request from the Mods:  Please do remember to post your finished entries in the 'Finished Entry' thread before the GB ends to ensure they are included in the subsequent Poll.

Sorry to labour the points above, we hope this helps and thank you for your understanding.

The Supreme Council of Moderators (a.k.a. Dave & Tom)
Reality is an illusion caused by an alcohol deficiency