avatar_Pellson

The F-100S - or what the Hun should have become

Started by Pellson, December 14, 2022, 09:47:46 AM

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Pellson

#15
Quote from: Old Wombat on December 15, 2022, 05:34:09 AMI'm thinking it's the code letters, which seem to be WW2 style rather than post-war.
[*: Although, I'm surprised you didn't go the full Antonis Karidis scheme - it looks exceptionally good.]

Nope, codes are stolen and rearranged from a Starfighter, so they're not it, and for you missing the scorched rear, that's something I would have assumed the Spey installation to have handled smarter than the original mashup. So painting the entire fuselage was intentional.  :wacko:

Re the Norm 72 scheme of Mr Karidis - yeah, it is nice, but trhe tulip scheme is an interceptor scheme, and has always been. It was Erich Hartmanns trademark already in Bf109's, and he brought it with him to first the Sabres, and then at least the Phantoms of JG71. I would actually have gurssed that you could find a photo of a "tuliped" Starfighter too, but as I haven't seen any, I'm not sure.
Anyway - the Hun was never a good fighter but rather a fighterbomber, so while handsome, no. It's too much interceptor for me.

Which, considering the blasphemy I've been talking about might be a bit inconsistent, so I'll let you in on what I have done. See the unit crest on the fin? As pretty (and German) as it is, it would NEVER have appeared on a postwar German fighter.

You cannot view this attachment.

Anyone recognising it, and can tell me why?
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

kitbasher

Had to Google but it's I/JG54, which spent most of its operational existence on the Eastern Front. 

A very smart build, the F-100 looks good in any scheme.  Never heard of the F-100S until this thread, would very much like to learn more about the proposed real world development.
What If? & Secret Project SIG member.
On the go: Beaumaris/Battle/Bronco/Barracuda/Corsair/Doflug D-3800/Flatning/Hellcat IV/Hunter PR11/Hurricane IIb/Ice Cream Tank/JP T4/Jumo MiG-15/P1103 (early)/P1154-ish/Phantom FG1/Sea Hawk T7/Shadow R1/Spitfire XII/Twin Otter/Val/FrankenCOIN/Frankenfighter

Dizzyfugu

Quote from: Old Wombat on December 15, 2022, 05:34:09 AMI'm thinking it's the code letters, which seem to be WW2 style rather than post-war.

No, the font/style is fine. Even the code numbers are in a good range, "19" has never been assigned to a type in Luftwaffe service, AFAIK, Starfighters had "20" upwards. Smaller numbers were usually assigned to passenger transport aircraft, incl. VIP transports.

Pellson

Quote from: Dizzyfugu on December 16, 2022, 01:41:59 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on December 15, 2022, 05:34:09 AMI'm thinking it's the code letters, which seem to be WW2 style rather than post-war.

No, the font/style is fine. Even the code numbers are in a good range, "19" has never been assigned to a type in Luftwaffe service, AFAIK, Starfighters had "20" upwards. Smaller numbers were usually assigned to passenger transport aircraft, incl. VIP transports.

Thanks, Thomas. I tried to find a nice serial within the limited scope of the numbers I stole from that Starfighter sheet. I believe the original Starfighter code was 21+65.. :):wub:

Quote from: kitbasher on December 16, 2022, 12:11:57 AMHad to Google but it's I/JG54, which spent most of its operational existence on the Eastern Front. 
Correct, and it is the wartime connection is the problem.
It is an absolute taboo within the modern Bundeswehr to have any links whatsoever that in any possible way can be interpreted or seen as keeping traditions or similar of possible nazi-influenced units, names, persons or places. Considering that the wartime Germany was a one-party nazi dictatorship, and that said regime more or less rebuilt the entire German military organisation from nil, there aren't many unit names, affilations or symbols left. The above mentioned "tulip" decoration is an interesting exception as it, during WW2, was very closely affiliated to Erich Hartmann personally, and he was very much an airman and a soldier, and from what I can read, actively sought to distance himself from any political decisions or processes, firmly sticking to his flying unit and the men and machines therein. Apparently he did this rather successfully. Hence, the "tulip" decoration was deemed acceptable.

Another example of an acceptable tradition name is "Richthofen", used by JG 71, and derived from the WW1 ace and nobleman Manfred von Richthofen. His name is acceptable since he died before the Nazi period. It should be said that the wartime JG 2 also was called "Richthofen, so there could, theoretically have been a nazi connection anyway. The names "Immelmann" and Boelcke" are other examples of WW1 aces being honoured also in todays Bundeswehr, "Immelmann" being used in WW2 as well.

An interesting example going in the other direction is the Name "Molders". As Wikipedia puts it:
32 years after the crash and death of the German World War II fighter ace Werner Mölders, JG 74 received the honorary name of "JG 74 Mölders" on 22 November 1973. However, the German parliament decided in 1998 that it is not proper to name organizations after people who were active in the Legion Condor. The German Military History Institute researched Mölders conduct and concluded that he concurred in his actions with the Nazi government, and never opposed any actions taken by the Nazis. Therefore, the name "Mölders" was dropped by JG 74 on 11 June 2005.
Consider this. Noone says that Molders was an active nazi. But – he participated actively and enthusiastically on the fascist side in the Spanish Civil war, and he DIDN'T ACTIVELY OPPOSE the nazis (which, in consequence, Hartmann must have done). But it is muddled.

The result of this is in any case that any symbol, name or similar that can't be proven being entirely free of any connection to the nazi regime is an absolute no-go for the Bundeswehr. While this is perfectly understandable, and - actually – also probably a sound sanitary rule, it does, from a perspective of graphics, rule out almost any known symbols and emblems in any way used by any military unit before 1946. And many, many of them are way older than the nazi epoque, affiliated to families and/or geography, not necessarily being 100% nazi, but obviously, as Germany was what it was during these years, neither 100% nazi free. Many others are rather generic in their nature, and again, while some men serving under these symbols definitely were nazi during the 1933 - 1945 period, equally definitely, many were not.

Given the above, and having mulled on this for quite some time, and also considering the fact that the unit emblems in my perspective add so much to the general appearance of any fighter, I took the decision to dive in nevertheless. One big reason is that I accidentally have a few sets of old WW2 Luftwaffe unit emblems on a decal sheet, so there were some to chose from. And – they are pretty! While I will try to avoid any symbols directly connected to the nazi ideology or similarly tarnished reputation, I will be looking at using more of what I have. You will see a few more on the MiG's f.i 

I understand that this is, or at least can be, quite controversial, especially from a German perspective, and I offer my unconditional apologies if I am causing anyone any harm whatsoever, but I hope you can forgive me and try to see this as within an artistic license and not in any way intended to actually connect backwards in a political sense.


Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Dizzyfugu

Well, when cou take into account that JG 71's commodore was actually a Nazi hero fighter pilot (who even introduced his personal "tulip" decoration to operational aircraft!), the German military's attitude towards history is a bit ambiguous, pragmatic, and sometimes even hypocritical. Many army barracks and buildings stiil date back to WWII times, and there are even contemporary decorations around (sans swastika, though). No wonder that many Nazis are still attracted to the Bundeswehr, and there's an undelying problem with political attitudes and toxic fraternism. Hard to tell how severe it really is, but I am afraid that it's bigger than one might think. However, this is whifworld, and I do not see a big problem with traditional unit markings. As somebody already mentioned, as long as there's no glorification of the past and some weird ideas about world order and such things, a lot of artistic freedom is acceptable.  :mellow:

thundereagle1997

His name was Erich Alfred Hartmann. April 19 1922 to September 20 1993

Pellson

So - even here, we might see another entrant in a bit. A Danish F-100S. I need to decide on armament, and I need to source more roundels. Always more roundels..
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Dizzyfugu

Bullpups are always a good choice for the Hun!

Pellson

Quote from: Dizzyfugu on January 24, 2023, 11:55:40 PMBullpups are always a good choice for the Hun!

..in particular as the Hasegawa kit comes with them.. 😉

I dunno. We'll see.
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!