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A-7 Corsair and F-8 Crusader

Started by upnorth, November 01, 2005, 02:28:49 AM

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rickshaw

Neither the AIM-9C nor the R530 were particularly successful.  The 9Cs were withdrawn fairly quickly because of their short rang and in the end were convert to the Sidearm version which was an anti-radiation missile.  The French persisted with the R530 but I've never heard any good reports, just loads of bad ones.  The most common conclusion was overly complex, unreliable and too finicky.   I'm warming to the idea of Red Top, perhaps in the Blue Dolphin radar homing version.
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Pellson

Re the unreliable guns in the F-8 - this actually resulted in the longest air-to-air dogfight recorded as a USN Crusader got stuck in a manouvering battle with jammed guns, opposing several MiG 21:s over Vietnam. The episode was recreated by CGI and aired on TV many, many years later and is interestingly enough available on the YT. It is indeed a fascinating tale about an incredible pilot and his "last gunfighter".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tFX78bLM-Y&feature=related
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

NARSES2

Quote from: Weaver on April 18, 2013, 06:05:03 PM
Some of the radars fitted to Crusaders could designate targets for SARH missiles: the F-8 was the only user of the SARH AIM-9C version of the Sidewinder and the French Navy F-8Ns used the SARH Matra R530.

Thick question, but what does SARH stand for ?
Decals my @r$e!

rickshaw

Quote from: NARSES2 on April 19, 2013, 07:53:41 AM
Quote from: Weaver on April 18, 2013, 06:05:03 PM
Some of the radars fitted to Crusaders could designate targets for SARH missiles: the F-8 was the only user of the SARH AIM-9C version of the Sidewinder and the French Navy F-8Ns used the SARH Matra R530.

Thick question, but what does SARH stand for ?

Semi-Active Radar Homing - where the missile homes in on the radar reflections from the target when it's illuminated by your radar.   Needs a powerful radar on the firing aircraft/ship/vehicle and a sensitive missile receiver.   As against Fully Active Homing (FAH) where the missile has it's own radar and home in on the reflections from it (effectively making it "fire and forget" whereas the SARH must be guided all the way by the firing aircraft/ship/vehicle).
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

pyro-manic

For the RN version, gun issues can be resolved by replacing the four 20mm with a pair of 30mm ADENs. :thumbsup: And as it's a two-seater, switch the radar for that of the Phantom to allow Sparrow/Skyflash, or whatever radar was needed for Blue Dolphin.. Might need an extra set of wing pylons (or some double rails) to allow four to be carried.
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NARSES2

Quote from: rickshaw on April 19, 2013, 08:04:40 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on April 19, 2013, 07:53:41 AM
Quote from: Weaver on April 18, 2013, 06:05:03 PM
Some of the radars fitted to Crusaders could designate targets for SARH missiles: the F-8 was the only user of the SARH AIM-9C version of the Sidewinder and the French Navy F-8Ns used the SARH Matra R530.

Thick question, but what does SARH stand for ?

Semi-Active Radar Homing - where the missile homes in on the radar reflections from the target when it's illuminated by your radar.   Needs a powerful radar on the firing aircraft/ship/vehicle and a sensitive missile receiver.   As against Fully Active Homing (FAH) where the missile has it's own radar and home in on the reflections from it (effectively making it "fire and forget" whereas the SARH must be guided all the way by the firing aircraft/ship/vehicle).

Thankyou kindly sir
Decals my @r$e!

Weaver

#141
Quote from: rickshaw on April 18, 2013, 10:04:48 PM
Neither the AIM-9C nor the R530 were particularly successful.  The 9Cs were withdrawn fairly quickly because of their short rang and in the end were convert to the Sidearm version which was an anti-radiation missile.  The French persisted with the R530 but I've never heard any good reports, just loads of bad ones.  The most common conclusion was overly complex, unreliable and too finicky.   I'm warming to the idea of Red Top, perhaps in the Blue Dolphin radar homing version.

All true, but those are criticisms of the missiles, not the radar. The point I was trying to make was that the F-8's radar was capable of providing SARH missile illumination despite being on the small side. Doubtless it couldn't do it at anything like the range of F-4's, but that wasn't the question. Since it was demonstrably capable of guiding AIM-9Cs and R350s, I don't see any reason in principle why it couldn't guide an AIM-7.

The original R530 SARH version was unquestionably a dog, although the IR version wasn't too bad. However the later Super-530D (totally different missile) has blistering flight performance and it's guidance system is in the same class as other SARH missiles.
"We thank you, but this diversion is not true. Things never happened thus."

"Oh, but it IS true. Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are
the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."

- Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

Daryl J.

Khemed could use a couple RF-8s surely.

Weaver

Quote from: pyro-manic on April 19, 2013, 12:19:16 PM
For the RN version, gun issues can be resolved by replacing the four 20mm with a pair of 30mm ADENs. :thumbsup: And as it's a two-seater, switch the radar for that of the Phantom to allow Sparrow/Skyflash, or whatever radar was needed for Blue Dolphin.. Might need an extra set of wing pylons (or some double rails) to allow four to be carried.

The "gun issue" on the F-8 was actually an ammo-feed issue caused by the fact that the ammo cans were at the top of the fuselage behind the cockpit, with the the belts feeding down long, thin channels to the guns mounted low on the sides. G-forces caused the ammo belts to "ruck up" inside the channels and jam. This means that simply swapping the cannons for another type wouldn't solve the problem unless you radically re-designed the whole ammo system as well. They solved it in the A-7D by fitting a Vulcan, whose powered, linkless ammo feed could take the Gs.

The F-8 originally had a retractable rocket pack on the lower fuselage, which was first locked shut and then replaced with an extra fuel tank. I wonder if it might be worthwhile putting the gun ammo in that space instead and having the extra fuel behind the cockpit instead. The ammo runs still wouldn't be perfect, but they'd be shorter.

The F-4's radar is WAY bigger than the F-8's in both diameter and volume: I don't see any way to fit it, unless you use the same electronics with a severely cut down aerial, but what would be the point of that?
"We thank you, but this diversion is not true. Things never happened thus."

"Oh, but it IS true. Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are
the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."

- Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

rickshaw

Putting the ammunition in the lower fuselage would be better as when you pull-Gs, the guns would then need to be able to pull the rounds up against the G force.  With them on the top, they are pulling the rounds down, with the G force.  Unless the guns have some form of assistance, they'll find it hard to feed rounds if the magazine is below the guns.   I think the main problem with the standard feed on the F-8 was that the cannons themselves weren't strong enough to pull the belts.  Replacing them with a better weapon may well solve the problems.
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

Old Wombat

#145
A chain-gun, like the Hughes weapon on the AH-64, only fixed, should fix the problem but might, possibly, have a lower RoF if not modified.

Of course, a Vulcan is a multi-barrelled chain-gun, so I guess they decided to go that way, eventually.

:cheers:

Guy

PS: Of course, the biggest fault with SARH missiles is that the firing plane needs to keep its radar locked onto the target, which makes it vulnerable during the missile's flight time... Do I evade this incoming missile/gun attack & waste my missile or do I get the kill & be killed in the process? Hmmm?
Has a life outside of What-If & wishes it would stop interfering!

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veritas ad mortus veritas est

Weaver

Well technically a "chain gun" gets it's name from the loop of moter-driven chain that cycles it's linear-action bolt back and forth, so a Vulcan isn't a "chain gun" in that sense. However, I suspect your real point was that both are externally powered and therefore not dependent on ammo energy for their belt-pulling power. This is true, although the Hughes chain guns are actually rather weak belt-pullers on their own, the concept originally being that there would be a separate motor-drive to assist with long feed systems.

I can't see any reason in principle why you couldn't design a single or twin-barrelled revolver gun with external drive to be honest. A twin-fixed-barrelled revolver gun like a GSh-23, but scaled up to fire NATO 25x137mm with external drive would be pretty tasty, particularly if you had one on each side of your F-8..... :wacko:
"We thank you, but this diversion is not true. Things never happened thus."

"Oh, but it IS true. Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are
the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."

- Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

Pellson

Quote from: Mossie on April 17, 2013, 07:08:01 AM
Think I originally found this on Secret Projects, artists impression of the two seat Spey powered Crusader offered to the Royal Navy as a Phantom alternative.


Ooooooyeah!! This one, a Blue Vixen radar and Active Skyflash missiles.. Now, where did I hide that old twosair conversion..?  :wub:
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Weaver

Evil idea: build a model of this test ship then sit back and wait for the JMNs to tell you it's the wrong missile for a USN aircraft:



:wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
"We thank you, but this diversion is not true. Things never happened thus."

"Oh, but it IS true. Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are
the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."

- Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

Mr.Creak

Quote from: Weaver on April 23, 2013, 05:08:54 PM
Evil idea: build a model of this test ship then sit back and wait for the JMNs to tell you it's the wrong missile for a USN aircraft:

So the "What if" on that one would be your reply to their complaints... "What if you knew what you were talking about?"
:)
What if... I had a brain?