What if

GROUP BUILDS => 2019 Group Builds => The Knackers Yard => The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB => Topic started by: Tophe on February 28, 2019, 10:16:54 PM

Title: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on February 28, 2019, 10:16:54 PM
I will try to draw twin-boom Lightnings matching the principle of this GB. I am not sure yet what this will come. I think a tiltwing in 1940 would be unconventional, but PR19_Kit said no wing except if very small, so I will have to think over and over again... :-\ ;D
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on February 28, 2019, 10:26:00 PM
My first ideas are: a triplex-rotor P-38, a flapping-wing butterfly P-38, a jet-powered rotor in 1940 on P-38 basis.
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: PR19_Kit on February 28, 2019, 11:34:09 PM
Tiltwings would be fine Tophe, no problems.

The primary rule is that the conventional type wing should not be the PRIME means of providing the aircraft's lift.
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 01, 2019, 06:52:26 AM
Thanks!Well, not a micro wing but a micro fixed lifting area...
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_cz_zpspriiltsy.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 01, 2019, 07:43:37 AM
When the wing tilts back horizontal, it is rather big, but this cruise flight view shows it was useful to use twin booms:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_da_zps4xgijtev.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 01, 2019, 08:56:10 AM
Quote from: Tophe on February 28, 2019, 10:26:00 PM
a triplex-rotor P-38
Here is she:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dc_zpsv0omuyfi.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 01, 2019, 10:42:41 AM
Quote from: Tophe on February 28, 2019, 10:26:00 PM
a jet-powered rotor in 1940 on P-38 basis.
With the fixed axis, there is no torque on this helicopter:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_de_zpseccwpptb.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: zenrat on March 02, 2019, 01:48:26 AM
Quote from: Tophe on March 01, 2019, 10:42:41 AM
Quote from: Tophe on February 28, 2019, 10:26:00 PM
a jet-powered rotor in 1940 on P-38 basis.
With the fixed axis, there is no torque on this helicopter:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_de_zpseccwpptb.jpg)

Lightnodyne...
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 02, 2019, 02:03:50 AM
You are right from a British point of view... ;D
I was thinking of the (French) mass produced Djinn  ;)
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_jet
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 02, 2019, 09:54:09 AM
Quote from: zenrat on March 02, 2019, 01:48:26 AM

Lightnodyne...


;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 02, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
Thanks!
But... more serious now: the Comet Moth Lightning (P-38CM) was both stealthy and silent, with its flapping wings:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dh_zps9p5puw7j.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: zenrat on March 03, 2019, 02:48:46 AM
Quote from: Tophe on March 02, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
Thanks!
But... more serious now: the Comet Moth Lightning (P-38CM) was both stealthy and silent, with its flapping wings:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dh_zps9p5puw7j.jpg)


:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 03, 2019, 09:20:33 PM
Thanks!

Quote from: zenrat on March 02, 2019, 01:48:26 AM
Lightnodyne...
Uh, here are Lightning helicopters like the asymmetric Fairey Gyrodyne:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_B_dk.jpg&hash=2153459132be00f037d414031922ae5ef6403ded)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 04, 2019, 02:33:32 AM
Quote from: Tophe on March 03, 2019, 09:20:33 PM

Quote from: zenrat on March 02, 2019, 01:48:26 AM
Lightnodyne...
Uh, here are Lightning helicopters like the asymmetric Fairey Gyrodyne:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_B_dk.jpg&hash=2153459132be00f037d414031922ae5ef6403ded)


What a cracking idea!  ;D

If I wasn't up to my ears in building RW model cars I'd give one of those a try in styrene, probably the right hand asymmetric one!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 04, 2019, 05:33:27 AM
What marvelous words... thanks! ;)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 04, 2019, 10:21:19 AM
And now an Ekranoplightning P-38X-114:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dm_zpsmd5xdnkk.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: zenrat on March 05, 2019, 02:30:01 AM
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 05, 2019, 10:56:20 AM
Thanks!

And, decades before the Harrier was the VTOL Harrining:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_do_zpsdtlonepi.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 12, 2019, 01:09:54 PM
For ships, boats, the screw propeller vs water wheel competition was won by the propeller, and for airplanes, this was won as well, but which was the competitor? WW-38!
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dt_zpsluylj56b.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 12, 2019, 10:42:10 PM
The SW-38 Single Wheel Lightning was also designed but failed to fly:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_du_zpsrdzpjfbo.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 12, 2019, 11:41:42 PM
And thanks to loupgarou explaining me what is the Zero Length Launch take-off, here are the ZeLL-L Lightnings:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_B_dw.jpg&hash=fb9df2747209df9d62bf06c1906e8467570c6b35)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: NARSES2 on March 13, 2019, 07:03:43 AM
Paddle wheel P-38's are brilliant  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: kerick on March 13, 2019, 11:09:12 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on March 13, 2019, 07:03:43 AM
Paddle wheel P-38's are brilliant  :thumbsup:

Needs to be built in polished wood, brass and copper. That would look very steampunk. Oh, and lots of rivets!
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 18, 2019, 11:14:46 AM
Thanks!

Quote from: Nick on March 17, 2019, 11:42:35 AM
Would you accept an X-15 as being unconventional?
Quote from: NARSES2 on March 18, 2019, 07:38:57 AM
Kit has conferred and we are ok with that Nick.
The P-38X-15 had micro-wings because this is enough at Mach 7:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dx_zps4smcqrmr.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 22, 2019, 11:10:01 AM
With lift mainly provided by 3 balloons filled with Helium*++, the Lightnip had a maximum speed of 10mph:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dy_zpsxo3zv8se.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 23, 2019, 01:07:23 AM
Thanks to 63cpe's http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,46369.0.html
here is a Lightning with Magnus Effect lift:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_dz_zpsuwcltdrf.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 23, 2019, 01:13:21 AM
Oh, I realize that, years ago, I already Drew Magnus Effect Lightning and Cyclogyro Lightning, differently:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2Fr_P38eclairH_u.JPG&hash=8cc4dc4eb2f6d9179a8a5f4f0bba9f13d7e1cc64)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: 63cpe on March 23, 2019, 01:13:55 AM
Wahahaha!  :wub:

Wonderful!

David aka 63 cpe
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: 63cpe on March 23, 2019, 01:31:02 AM
As a logical folluwup of the Flettner Rotor experimental, I plan to build a fanwing.
Not clear on all parts but probably put an 1/48 Alouette II canopy in it eventhough it will be in 1/72 as all my builds.

I simply can't make the fanwing within the GB time frame..

David aka 63cpe
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 23, 2019, 02:15:59 AM
If you have no time to build it, I may have time to draw it, Copyright 63cpe of course ;D
The source I found is http://fanwing.com/ is it that?
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: zenrat on March 23, 2019, 02:22:11 AM
Quote from: Tophe on March 23, 2019, 01:13:21 AM
Oh, I realize that, years ago, I already Drew Magnus Effect Lightning and Cyclogyro Lightning, differently:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2Fr_P38eclairH_u.JPG&hash=8cc4dc4eb2f6d9179a8a5f4f0bba9f13d7e1cc64)
Quote from: Tophe on March 23, 2019, 02:15:59 AM
If you have no time to build it, I may have time to draw it, Copyright 63cpe of course ;D
The source I found is http://fanwing.com/ is it that?

The middle one of the three drawn above is almost there already.
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: 63cpe on March 23, 2019, 02:43:32 AM
Yep, that's the site Tophe!

Sure feel free to draw fanwings!

David aka 63 cpe
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 23, 2019, 07:26:15 AM
Thanks!
So here is the FW-38 Fanwingning ©63cpe... ;D
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_ec_zpsuhwn5xim.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: 63cpe on March 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Woooow!  :thumbsup:

I sure like that! go on!

:wub:

David aka 63cpe

Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on March 25, 2019, 07:38:51 AM
Thanks!

Quote from: NARSES2 on March 24, 2019, 07:35:55 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 24, 2019, 02:52:05 AM
I'm sure a Channel Wing would be allowable, but I'll consult with my fellow mod.
Which Kit has done and we have agreed it's a goer  :thumbsup:
P-38CW:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_ee_zpstqhrnvwg.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on April 01, 2019, 08:40:07 AM
On the 4-engined version of the P-38CW, the wings were not small as a whole, but the flat part of them (usual meaning of "wings") was tiny:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_en_zps0cdlavjg.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on April 02, 2019, 09:46:57 AM
The weights of the previous one were too much in front, and the booms were not justified enough.
In "fact", the true prototype was like this:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_er_zpsys3zxbas.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on April 04, 2019, 07:03:47 PM
A two-seat single-engined version of the Channel Wing Lightning:
(https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_es_zpsjfulr4fx.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on April 17, 2019, 11:23:24 AM
Thanks to Dizzyfugu's PTAK-30 at http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,46319.45.html
here are the Lockheed PTAK-38 (at take off and in cruise) then PTAK-38Z:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_B_ez.jpg&hash=6aa06617e826c08c2e5eaa091b3f59e44614a131)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on April 26, 2019, 07:20:32 PM
And thanks to sandiego89's C-130 at http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,46349.0.html here is a P-38, twin Pegasus vector thrusted engined:
(https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_B_fd_zpsdajrf6ey.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on April 28, 2019, 09:41:37 PM
The Lightnocopter was one of the very rare helicopters having 2 main rotors on the centerline without looking like a flying banana:
(https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_C_aa_zpsbb7prsdt.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on May 01, 2019, 08:52:03 AM
There were other Lightning helicopters with 2 separate rotors, but laterally (intermeshing or not):
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_C_ab_zpszundvsm2.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on May 02, 2019, 03:45:27 AM
And a VTOL Lightning with tilting jets:
(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v670/Tophe2712/P38_persp_C_ae_zpsu4vuzcb4.jpg)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on May 10, 2019, 11:19:19 AM
Before the VTOL Nord/Aérospatiale N.500 were the N.438 and 438Z:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_C_an.jpg&hash=19890d85be6ca22474aec1d722b7ae9cebaf8ab3)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on May 14, 2019, 06:28:04 AM
And Annular Wing AW-38A, B, C (not micro-wing exactly but micro-span):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_C_ar.jpg&hash=1ad7c1eb16f0d4c176bd2543483e2f63eb9f7e87)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on May 15, 2019, 09:30:18 AM
At Mach 5, there is almost no need of wings, that was the principle of the piloted missile PXX-38 Rocket Lightning (ancestor of X-3 and F-104):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_C_au.jpg&hash=0c5848cad7a165e2a4e8dce4b26359ff63dc8061)
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 15, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
Now THAT would look really good in plastic!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Micro-winged P-38s
Post by: Tophe on May 19, 2019, 06:33:35 PM
Thanks!

And VTOL tailsitters also don't need much span, as low speed lift is provided by the propeller becoming rotor:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FP38_persp_C_az.jpg&hash=c9b40b2a5f412295e1d146886dd8e13114a05102)