Author Topic: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat  (Read 13328 times)

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Offline PanzerWulff

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Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« on: May 10, 2007, 08:05:32 am »
In late WWII the F4F was bumped off the big frontline carriers and used on lighter carriers that couldn't handle Hellcats and Corsairs. what I was thinking of was a upgrade on the F4F/FM-2 Wildcat, with a 4 blade prop and Beefing the engine up from the 1,350Hp R-1820 to possibly the 1,600 Hp R-2600 double wasp. the engines seem to be of similar size but how would the aircraft handle differently would it be too "Hot" for "Jeep" carrier operation? Just curious
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Offline dogsbody

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2007, 11:45:33 am »
What about an F4F fitted with a P&W R-2000, 1450hp radial? The extra 250hp would certainly improve proformance.

I've often wondered why this engine wasn't used on other aircraft, beside the C-54.

Imagine a B-24 with an extra 1000hp, or a PB4Y-2.
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Offline GTX

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2007, 12:39:49 pm »
Hard to say if it would handle differently or be too "Hot".  What you could do though is make some other mods - say cut sown rear fuselage or even bubble canopy to give better rearward vision.  Maybe replace ( or partly replace) MGs with 20mm cannon - say at least 1 per wing.

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Greg
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Offline PanzerWulff

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2007, 07:26:47 am »
Quote
Hard to say if it would handle differently or be too "Hot".  What you could do though is make some other mods - say cut sown rear fuselage or even bubble canopy to give better rearward vision.  Maybe replace ( or partly replace) MGs with 20mm cannon - say at least 1 per wing.

Regards,

Greg
Lol I was actually toying with a pair of 20mm's in the wing esp as the kit i have (The Academy 1/72 kit) has the 6 .50 cal guns I was thinking of making either the single outer wing gun ir one of the 2 inner wing guns on each side a 20mm.I'm not going to "Bubbletop" this one but thats a cool idea (I just wish I had a spare bubble canopy lol)
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Offline tigercat2

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2007, 10:40:49 am »
Why not throw an R-2800 into it, hang on a 4 blade prop and call it a Bearcat?  Having recently build both the Wildcat and Bearcat in 1/72, I was really surprised that the Bearcat is just about the same size as the Wildcat.


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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2007, 05:12:09 pm »
Using the tall tail of the FM-2 Wildcat might become paramount.   Reducing the keel area by creating a bubbletop could be quite counter productive.   One could fast-forward the machine to the Vietnam era, put it in USAF service, put some kind of air-to-ground destruction and you'd have an Attackcat!  B)


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Offline PanzerWulff

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 05:34:30 am »
I was thinking late WWII or Korea myself in overall gloss sea blue as for the name I was going to call it the "BobCat" and maybe add rockets under the wing. and a couple of drop tanks or bombs
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Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 11:04:25 pm »
The Grumman Designs 33 and 33A were proposed derivatives of the XF4F-2 with the R-1830 replaced by the R-2600, the proposals date from February 1938. In March 1938 an all new, and larger, R-2600 powered aircraft was proposed, the Design 35. Work ceased after Brewster's XF2A-1 was selected over the XF4F-2 and Grumman concentrated all effort on the XF4F-3.
In September 1940 work resumed  on the R-2600 fighter project, Design 50 was originally conceived to use as many F4F design features as possible... in an early drawing it looks much like a long-nosed F4F-3.
After numerous changes Design 50 eventually became the XF6F-1, prototype #1 was actually built and originally flown with an R-2600, the aircraft was grounded in August of 1942 to have the R-2600 replaced with an R-2800.

The Grumman engineers designed a larger aircraft because they felt that the F4F airframe was too small to properly take advantage of the power increase resulting from a switch from the R-1830 to the R-2600.

The Eastern XF2M-1 project for an improved FM-2 was actually begun in October 1942. The original concept of installing a larger twin-row radial, the R-2000 and R-2600 were both considered, was quickly rejected in favour of higher performance versions of the Cyclone, either the R-1820-62 or the R-1820-70W. Three prototypes were ordered, none were completed when the project was canceled in the Spring of 1945. Incidentally the most powerful Cyclone, the R-1820-82WA, was rated at 1675 hp for takeoff, with water injection.

Cheers, Jon
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 11:07:14 pm by joncarrfarrelly »
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Offline PanzerWulff

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 11:48:30 am »
Thanks for the info Jon It opens up a couple of possibilities and gives me some options on engines ;)
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Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 12:05:48 pm »
Grumman drawing comparing an early iteration of Design 50 to the XF4F-2 & F4F-3:


Cheers, Jon
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 10:55:50 am by joncarrfarrelly »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2008, 08:17:44 pm »
Since the WIldcat was just about the right size for operation from the smaller CVE and CVL size carriers.  What could have bee done to increase the performance of the aircraft short of fitting a larger engine which would certainly have helped the Wildcat stay on top of the fight.  How about additional wing mounted stores pylons in addition to the two stores pylons that were located next to the wing fuselage join.  Additional smaller pylons mounted outboard on the wings to mount smaller bombs and rockets for ground attack and anti-shipping missions.  The original Wildcat had provisions for a pair of small 50 gallon size fuel tanks located along the fuselage-wing join.  If the landing gear were changed to the design as used on the Hellcat, the fuel tanks or bombs that could be carried on these two stores pylons could be larger.  The Vector Site mentions the following about a hybrid Wildcat called the FM-2B (see attached image from Greg's site).   
Quote
"I got to chatting with a UK correspondent who liked the Wildcat and speculated improvements such as a bubble canopy, plus armament of twin Brownings and twin 20 millimeter cannon. The idea appealed to me; since the Wildcat stayed in production so long, a final makeover in its twilight days seemed plausible enough. I drew up an illustration of the "FM-2B / Wildcat VII / Super Wildcat", adding a fin fillet since fitting the bubble canopy to other American fighters like the Mustang and Thunderbolt created yaw instability that led to fit of a fillet on those aircraft."

Additional reading links:

The Grumman F4F Wildcat (Greg Goebel's Vectors Site)
Wikipedia entry for the Grumman F4F Wildcat
Naval Historical Center Page on the Grumman F4F Wildcat
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 08:44:50 pm by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2008, 08:47:03 pm »
I do like that "final makeover" illustrated on Greg Goebel's site as well.

Although I also agree with his idea of keeping the existing landing gears, suspecting that adopting a new landing gears scheme might require major redesign...... would the new scheme be worthwhile enough to NOT warrant starting the whole thing from scratch?

Granted, a more powerful attacker might be the way to go until N-156NN and Harrier (i.e. jets suitable for CVEs) come online......
« Last Edit: July 23, 2008, 08:59:02 pm by dy031101 »
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Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2008, 10:14:15 pm »
Wing mounted gear would be pretty long and you'd potentially have the same problems that beset the N1K1-J.

The R-1820-82 of the early 1950s was a 1525hp engine, for comparison the R-1820-56WA of the FM-2 was 1350hp.
The -82 is slightly longer than the -56WA (50.10" vs. 47.56") and about .5" larger in diameter.

Jon

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2008, 10:25:54 pm »
I during last couple of hours tried to come up with a blank for the FM-2B thought up by Greg Goebel of the Air Vectors.

How does this one look?

I have a 2023 x 924 version available if anyone is interested in making his/her own mental note.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 07:07:03 am by dy031101 »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Grumman F4F (Goodyear FM) Wildcat
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 02:38:57 pm »
Not too long ago I contacted another member of the WHIF forum to purchase a resin conversion kit for the Boeing XB-38 (Allison V1710 engine cowlings) which is a bit primitive when compared to the current crop of resin conversions out there.  Having no real desire to build the XB-38 which is really sleek looking I had other plans for the parts such as using them as the starting point for a turbine power egg for a couple of other projects.  This leaves me with several of the Allison engine cowlings that could be put to other uses such as a V1710 powered F4F or FM2 Wildcat.  I would imagine this would be an ideal aircraft for land based air forces.  So I figured I would share that idea with you all and let your imaginations wander. 
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