avatar_Geoff

ultramar war

Started by Geoff, August 15, 2022, 03:17:44 AM

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Geoff

During their colonial wars in Africa the Portuguese attempted to get Hunter F-6's, Canberra B-2's, and Luftwaffe Canadaire Sabre-6's.
Later, long after the war and '75 revolution they seriously looked at the Mirage 5. Germany offered second hand Tonkas, but the operating costs were too high so they got the Alpha Jets.
It is said the Angolan AF initially had a few F-84G's (no evidence for this that I know of though)
Just a thought.

edit - I wonder if the '75 revolution had gone all the way we would have ended up with Portuguese Migs?


NARSES2

Quote from: Geoff on August 15, 2022, 03:17:44 AM

edit - I wonder if the '75 revolution had gone all the way we would have ended up with Portuguese Migs?

Soviet bases in the Azores could have been "interesting" to say the least ? Even the possibility could have prompted NATO, i.e. US, intervention ?
Decals my @r$e!

Geoff

Quote from: NARSES2 on August 15, 2022, 05:17:42 AM
Quote from: Geoff on August 15, 2022, 03:17:44 AM

edit - I wonder if the '75 revolution had gone all the way we would have ended up with Portuguese Migs?

Soviet bases in the Azores could have been "interesting" to say the least ? Even the possibility could have prompted NATO, i.e. US, intervention ?

Well they do have a history don't they?

DogfighterZen

#3
Portugal tried to get what?  :o I've read quite a lot about what Portugal wanted before and after the wars and never read anything about the aircraft you've mentioned besides the Canadian F-86s, which were denied by the Canadians because of the US. The G-91 R4 was then offered by the Germans.
Not to say that they didn't cause i'm aware that i don't know everything so, if you have any more info on that, i'd love to read it. :thumbsup:

Regarding the 1975 coup d'etat by the commies, they weren't able to seize power because the troops didn't go along and even if they'd been able to do it, it would be a very short stay in power because most of the Portuguese military forces' Generals did not want commies in power... same as the people so, they had very little support on all fronts.
Regardless, i've also thought of that scenario and i did get some Soviet-era planes for it... :wacko:

The story of the PoAF's F-86Fs that were sent to Guinea-Bissau was short due to the North-American pressure to withdraw them from the fight because those had been bought under the MAP program and their presence in that region/conflict could disturb the situation even further by causing the neighbouring countries  to feel threatened.
The American government was refusing any kind of assistance and any further negotiations for the PoAF's fleet which included several American planes so the Portuguese complied in 1964, and that's when the portuguese turned to other countries, like Germany but i've never read anything about the Hunter or the Bucc.
Also, the PoAF became interested in the Mirage 5 in 68/69 so, long before the end of the war.
F-84's were never sent to Guinea-Bissau but were used in Angola and i've read that some were given to the Angolan military forces after the end of the war.

Regarding the Mirage, if you're interested, read this article: https://passarodeferro-operations.blogspot.com/2014/01/a-historia-secreta-dos-mirage.html
Use google translate cause it's in Portuguese, the translator works well on that page.

Quote from: Geoff on August 15, 2022, 06:03:56 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on August 15, 2022, 05:17:42 AM
Quote from: Geoff on August 15, 2022, 03:17:44 AM

edit - I wonder if the '75 revolution had gone all the way we would have ended up with Portuguese Migs?

Soviet bases in the Azores could have been "interesting" to say the least ? Even the possibility could have prompted NATO, i.e. US, intervention ?

Well they do have a history don't they?

You mean a history with the Soviets? Portugal entered NATO in 1949 so, no relations with commies, at least, since then. Also, Salazar always hated communists, he even created the state police PIDE as one of the means to control the communist and any other political or ideological menace to his regime so, nope, no history there. BTW,  PIDE agents murdered the communist party's leader in Portugal in 1961, following Salazar's command.

P.S.: Regarding the alpha jets, those were bought in 1993 to replace the T-33 for training and i've never read anything regarding an offer of Tornados for that purpose... :unsure:
Again, if you have any links with info on this, please share!  :thumbsup:
"Sticks and stones may break some bones but a 3.57's gonna blow your damn head off!!"

Geoff

#4
Quote from: DogfighterZen on August 15, 2022, 03:53:26 PM
Portugal tried to get what?  :o I've read quite a lot about what Portugal wanted before and after the wars and never read anything about the aircraft you've mentioned besides the Canadian F-86s, which were denied by the Canadians because of the US. The G-91 R4 was then offered by the Germans.
Not to say that they didn't cause i'm aware that i don't know everything so, if you have any more info on that, i'd love to read it. :thumbsup:

Regarding the 1975 coup d'etat by the commies, they weren't able to seize power because the troops didn't go along and even if they'd been able to do it, it would be a very short stay in power because most of the Portuguese military forces' Generals did not want commies in power... same as the people so, they had very little support on all fronts.
Regardless, i've also thought of that scenario and i did get some Soviet-era planes for it... :wacko:

The story of the PoAF's F-86Fs that were sent to Guinea-Bissau was short due to the North-American pressure to withdraw them from the fight because those had been bought under the MAP program and their presence in that region/conflict could disturb the situation even further by causing the neighbouring countries  to feel threatened.
The American government was refusing any kind of assistance and any further negotiations for the PoAF's fleet which included several American planes so the Portuguese complied in 1964, and that's when the portuguese turned to other countries, like Germany but i've never read anything about the Hunter or the Bucc.
Also, the PoAF became interested in the Mirage 5 in 68/69 so, long before the end of the war.
F-84's were never sent to Guinea-Bissau but were used in Angola and i've read that some were given to the Angolan military forces after the end of the war.

Regarding the Mirage, if you're interested, read this article: https://passarodeferro-operations.blogspot.com/2014/01/a-historia-secreta-dos-mirage.html
Use google translate cause it's in Portuguese, the translator works well on that page.

Quote from: Geoff on August 15, 2022, 06:03:56 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on August 15, 2022, 05:17:42 AM
Quote from: Geoff on August 15, 2022, 03:17:44 AM

edit - I wonder if the '75 revolution had gone all the way we would have ended up with Portuguese Migs?

Soviet bases in the Azores could have been "interesting" to say the least ? Even the possibility could have prompted NATO, i.e. US, intervention ?

Well they do have a history don't they?

You mean a history with the Soviets? Portugal entered NATO in 1949 so, no relations with commies, at least, since then. Also, Salazar always hated communists, he even created the state police PIDE as one of the means to control the communist and any other political or ideological menace to his regime so, nope, no history there. BTW,  PIDE agents murdered the communist party's leader in Portugal in 1961, following Salazar's command.

P.S.: Regarding the alpha jets, those were bought in 1993 to replace the T-33 for training and i've never read anything regarding an offer of Tornados for that purpose... :unsure:
Again, if you have any links with info on this, please share!  :thumbsup:

Hi,
The ref for the Hunter's, Canberra's, (Not Buccs) and Sabre 6's is :-
Sanctuary Lost
Portugal's air war for Guinea 1961-1974
Vol 1
Hurley and Matos
Helion 2022
ISBN 978-1-914059-99-5


The Mirages were from a magazine on history of the Mirage III/5 Sorry I cannot remember details. Thanks for the link that is the article I read in an English mag  :thumbsup:

Ditto for Tonkas - but I seem to remember reading it in news article in one of the airforce monthly type magazines ( I do have the article somewhere in a Portuguese mag-DOH!). IIRC it was from when they were casting about for an A-7 replacement. I do not know how serious the offer was but I am pretty sure I am not confabulating wildly.

DogfighterZen

Cool! Thanks, Geoff! I'm pretty sure you know what you're talking about.  :thumbsup:
Another one that not many people know of is that when Portugal was looking for a replacement for the A-7, they almost went for the F/A-18 instead of the F-16. (guess what my Academy Hornet will be ;D )
I guess I have to try to buy that book if it's still available.  :thumbsup:

It's funny cause your post comes when i'm trying to decide when the Portuguese bought the Hunter for my backstory of the GB build. This has given me more to work with so, i thank you very much for bringing this matter up.
  :cheers:
"Sticks and stones may break some bones but a 3.57's gonna blow your damn head off!!"

NARSES2

I always think of Portugal as England's oldest ally  :thumbsup:

Anglo-Portuguese Treaty of 1373 and then the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance of 1386 which is the oldest alliance in World history that is still in force  :thumbsup:
Decals my @r$e!

DogfighterZen

Quote from: NARSES2 on August 16, 2022, 06:00:44 AM
I always think of Portugal as England's oldest ally  :thumbsup:

Anglo-Portuguese Treaty of 1373 and then the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance of 1386 which is the oldest alliance in World history that is still in force  :thumbsup:

Sure is! And that's why I wonder why the PoAF didn't have more British planes.  :unsure:
And the beauty of this topic is that now I won't have to work very hard to find a story to justify the Tonka F.3 of the PoAF, when i get to building the Hasegawa kit i have in my stash.  :wacko: :thumbsup:
"Sticks and stones may break some bones but a 3.57's gonna blow your damn head off!!"

Geoff

#8
Quote from: DogfighterZen on August 16, 2022, 05:05:15 AM
Cool! Thanks, Geoff! I'm pretty sure you know what you're talking about.  :thumbsup:
Another one that not many people know of is that when Portugal was looking for a replacement for the A-7, they almost went for the F/A-18 instead of the F-16. (guess what my Academy Hornet will be ;D )
I guess I have to try to buy that book if it's still available.  :thumbsup:

It's funny cause your post comes when i'm trying to decide when the Portuguese bought the Hunter for my backstory of the GB build. This has given me more to work with so, i thank you very much for bringing this matter up.
  :cheers:

The book has only just been published £16 and change post free from publisher - got mine a few days ago and then Tai (Old Cat) landed on my cup of Tea and I have just managed to cut the pages apart still readable fortunately for Tai.
Didn't know about the Hornets (Hmmm thinks!).

The paragraph about the deal is on page 50
"Between 1962 and 1964 Portugal attempted to aquire several types of British-built combat aircraft, including 6 Canberra B2 medium jet bombers, 15 Hunter Mk 6 fighter-bombers, and at least a dozen Wessex or Whirlwind medium lift helicopters."

"Even after Lisbon increased its potential order to 25 Canberra bombers and up to 40 Hunter fighters..........The UK government declined in accordance with it's own embargo against Portugal's overseas wars."

Hurley and Matos page 50

DogfighterZen

Ok, so i should be able to buy one easily.
Thanks for the heads-up! :thumbsup:
Now, Tai seems to be quite a handful... Sorry for that accident, it's a shame but i'm glad you've managed to save some of it.
With that paragraph and with another bit from the article I've posted above, i can see the beginning of my backstory coming together...  :thumbsup:
"Sticks and stones may break some bones but a 3.57's gonna blow your damn head off!!"

Geoff

Quote from: DogfighterZen on August 16, 2022, 08:13:12 AM
Ok, so i should be able to buy one easily.
Thanks for the heads-up! :thumbsup:
Now, Tai seems to be quite a handful... Sorry for that accident, it's a shame but i'm glad you've managed to save some of it.
With that paragraph and with another bit from the article I've posted above, i can see the beginning of my backstory coming together...  :thumbsup:

Cheers - spookily enough I am also thinking of a Hunter - not sure of the scheme but I always liked the anti-radiation green, and scabbed on chaff/flare launchers.
Do like the idea of a Hornet though, and I have just invested in a 1/48 Tonka.  ;-) That might remain in the Luftwaffe grey scheme we will see.

DogfighterZen

Quote from: Geoff on August 16, 2022, 08:42:10 AM

Cheers - spookily enough I am also thinking of a Hunter - not sure of the scheme but I always liked the anti-radiation green, and scabbed on chaff/flare launchers.
Do like the idea of a Hornet though, and I have just invested in a 1/48 Tonka.  ;-) That might remain in the Luftwaffe grey scheme we will see.

I like your plans... :mellow:
I've also been trying to decide the scheme for my build but, for that decision to be made, i have to decide what's the era in which i'll be representing it. If i choose the earlier years, i will have two options, the anti-radiation or the most common scheme of dark grey, dark green camo used by the RAF. If i choose a period after the wars, it'll probably be the SEA camo as seen on Republic of Singapore AF's Hunters.
"Sticks and stones may break some bones but a 3.57's gonna blow your damn head off!!"

Geoff

Quote from: DogfighterZen on August 16, 2022, 05:01:14 PM
Quote from: Geoff on August 16, 2022, 08:42:10 AM

Cheers - spookily enough I am also thinking of a Hunter - not sure of the scheme but I always liked the anti-radiation green, and scabbed on chaff/flare launchers.
Do like the idea of a Hornet though, and I have just invested in a 1/48 Tonka.  ;-) That might remain in the Luftwaffe grey scheme we will see.

I like your plans... :mellow:
I've also been trying to decide the scheme for my build but, for that decision to be made, i have to decide what's the era in which i'll be representing it. If i choose the earlier years, i will have two options, the anti-radiation or the most common scheme of dark grey, dark green camo used by the RAF. If i choose a period after the wars, it'll probably be the SEA camo as seen on Republic of Singapore AF's Hunters.

Or the light grey scheme the Gina's wore in Africa. But the early years would be the green/grey over silver RAF scheme.
I must admit I had not thought of the SEA scheme.
Let us know what you go for.

DogfighterZen

Yeah, i was forgetting the scorpions used that light grey scheme. :thumbsup:

I think I'll be using the SEA camo, i'm more inclined to represent it in it's later years of service so i believe that would be the scheme used. :thumbsup:
"Sticks and stones may break some bones but a 3.57's gonna blow your damn head off!!"

Geoff

Quote from: DogfighterZen on August 17, 2022, 02:58:34 AM
Yeah, i was forgetting the scorpions used that light grey scheme. :thumbsup:

I think I'll be using the SEA camo, i'm more inclined to represent it in it's later years of service so i believe that would be the scheme used. :thumbsup:

That will look very good, hell the Hunter looks good in any scheme.
If there was the bigger order there may have been a second batch which were FGA-9's, not just the Mk-6's.
Not sure which scheme I will do but I am drawn to the anti-radiation green I must admit.