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Alpha Jet

Started by Nick, December 07, 2002, 10:34:32 AM

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PolluxDeltaSeven

#15
[Glad to see an Alpha Jet topic! I planned to open it one of those days, but Ysi was faster than me!)



Actually, if the Alpha Jet was selected instead of the Hawk for the US Navy selection, it is more lickely that the Gadget (as we nicknamed it) would have had quite a similar progression than the Hawk.

The last proposed variants of the Gadget had an Agave radar for ground attack and anti-ship purpose (with Exocet ability), or a FLIR/laser ranger similar to the Jaguar one in the nose.
It was actually a "mini Mirage", one of tDassault's two proposals (with the Super Etendard line re-operture) to offer low-cost attack planes alongside the Mirage 2000C interceptor variant, waiting for a dedicate strike Mirage 2000.

As far as I know, the last thought about the Alpha Jet were about some advanced designs, a single seat variant based on the two seat design (with aditionnal fuel instaed of the back seat), probably with more powerfull engine in option (but the exact type was  probably not chosen at this time), heavier payload, a new avionic (HUD, new navigation and attack system based on the Mirage 2000 one etc...) and a radar or an optronic nose.
Maybe a new wing, based on the supercritical one that was tested (in Germany?) on the Alpha Jet, was taken into consideration for better performances and bigger internal tanks...

Later, the Alpha Je could have received much more goodies, like a multimode radar (RC-400 or APG-66/67), much more powerfull engines, wingtip missiles including MICA and AMRAAM in option, glass cockpit etc etc...
For the payload, bigger external tanks (something around 1000litre) will be good, and they probably could carry everything that fit under the wings (i.e. quite all the NATOs weapons!).


That was for the French part of the deal. But we could imagine something different for the German.
After all, they participated in the Pampa development, so why not imagining an advanced Alpha Jet based on both the Alpha Jet A and the Pampa?
It could  be powered by one of the engine Ysi told without afterburner, but with a new bigger wing, maybe the supercritical one.


And if we imagin that the Gadget won the deal with the US Navy, we could have a totally new producer with it's own developpements!!
Just imagine an Alpha Jet in US Navy colors with Harpoon and Harm under the wings, AIM-9X on the wingtips and new more powerfull engines!!



Well, quite a lot of potential here, for the variants AND the customers!!



But I have one question about the engines for a modernisation:
-For the twin engine variant: what are the 2000kg thrust class engines in the western? The Adour is too big for the Alpha Jet (about 750kg by engine, against 350 for a Larzac). Maybe a new variant of the Garet ATF3??
-For the single engine, we need something around 4000 or 5000kg. The RB-199 sounds like a good choice, with just the appropriate thrust (above 40kN) and a lower specific consumption than the Larzac (so, quite the same range but with better abilities and payload!)
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-Charlemagne-

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elmayerle

IMHO, you don't want a variant of the ATF3, that engine has the most convoluted gas flow path possible.  Not only that, but by some outre' genius, they managed to put the engine mounts squarely in the path of one of the core exhausts.

If you're going to stay subsonic and don't mind some recontouring of the aft fuselage, perhaps a pair of CF700's, based on the latest J85 variants is a possibility.
"Reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it."
--Jane Wagner and Lily Tomlin

ysi_maniac

#17
Hi Evan,

I have a rear fuselage from a F-5E. Is this OK for CF700? The other posibility would be RB199.

Hi, Pollux,

My idea is similar to yours but there is a difference in single seat version. I would delete front cockpit for the sake visibility. Maybe single seat in intermediate position to allow some additional tankage.

Thanks.
Will die without understanding this world.

PolluxDeltaSeven

Well, for the single-seat variant, a totally new front fuselage could be done, ala Hawk 200!!

Actually, we could probably imagine much more design variations than the Hawk, as it could be modernized for three differents countries (Germany, France and probably USA, if we imagine it in the US Navy)

Contrary to the Hawk, I know that a two-seat design was proposed WITH a radar, that's why I didn't saw the need to delete the front cockpit in the begining.

Later, I admit that a Hawk 200 like front fuselage will be better, maybe it will allowed the Alpha Jet to carry both a radar and a FLIR (ala Harrier II +), and it will be better for visibility.
Maybe deleting the front cockpit could free some space for an internal 20mm or 30mm gun?



One question I always asked myself: if the Alpha Jet won the US Navy competition, how the things will change for the USN??
I mean, if they use a twin-engine, with better carrying capabilities, is it impossible to imagine a combat variant of the plane, able to operate the whole air-to-ground arsenal of the Navy (and part of the air-air missiles?)
Maybe not for real combat missions (even if for CAS it could be cool), but at least as an advanced trainer?

Or maybe, if the USN didn't want a combat variant, it could be a good base for some export variants, to Brazil for example.
And if the USA paid for the cariier variant developpement, maybe a French variant could appeared in order to replace the Zephir (instead of training our pilots in the USA)?
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
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-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

ysi_maniac

A lot of interesting ideas in your reply. I am thinking in something like an AMX -which is heavier than Hawk- but with more advanced electronic suite. So this would be too much for a trainer, but a very useful tactical fighter.

Customers?
Argentina will need to replace all those super aged Mirages/Daggers
more ideas ...
Will die without understanding this world.

PolluxDeltaSeven

As a pure fictionnal (i.e. not based on true events or projects) idea, we could imagine an enlarged variant of the Alpha Jet for pure attack role.


For example, it could have the upercritical wing already tested, with a longer and larger front fuselage for more internal fuel, single or two seater with optronic and/or radar, two Adour engines and a larger payload.
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

Jeffry Fontaine

#21
I have a couple copies of the old Esci 1/48th scale Alpha Jet in protective custody.  One of the complaints I recall about the kit was the canopy was incorrect in regards to how the rear canopy faired into the fuselage.  Not having a lot of good detail images of the Alpha Jet or any particular concern over that issue, I was just happy to find a 1/48th scale kit of this aircraft.  The kit comes with four pylons, two fuel tanks, two BL755 cluster munitions dispensers, and a gun pod for the ventral position on the fuselage.  The details are what you would expect from Esci back then and you had two build options, one with a pitot tube in the nose or one with a rounded nose. 

Another personal observation is regarding the fuel tanks.  They are tiny for an aircraft of that size.  Perhaps this could be improved on by sourcing larger fuel tanks from another kit.  No, I am not suggesting fuel tanks from an F-15 or F-111 but something a bit more practical in size and volume that would provide 200 to 300 gallons of fuel for increased loiter time or range.  Any suggestions on a donor kit for fuel tanks that would look appropriate on an Alpna Jet?
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MAD

#22
Quote from: PolluxDeltaSeven on November 16, 2007, 08:10:43 AM
Well, for the single-seat variant, a totally new front fuselage could be done, ala Hawk 200!!

Actually, we could probably imagine much more design variations than the Hawk, as it could be modernized for three differents countries (Germany, France and probably USA, if we imagine it in the US Navy)

Contrary to the Hawk, I know that a two-seat design was proposed WITH a radar, that's why I didn't saw the need to delete the front cockpit in the begining.

Later, I admit that a Hawk 200 like front fuselage will be better, maybe it will allowed the Alpha Jet to carry both a radar and a FLIR (ala Harrier II +), and it will be better for visibility.
Maybe deleting the front cockpit could free some space for an internal 20mm or 30mm gun?

What about a US Marine Corp combat variant of the Alpha Jet?

Say a dedicated anti-helicopter variant that would have escorted to their helicopter assaults and fly CAP over the area of beach landings?




One question I always asked myself: if the Alpha Jet won the US Navy competition, how the things will change for the USN??
I mean, if they use a twin-engine, with better carrying capabilities, is it impossible to imagine a combat variant of the plane, able to operate the whole air-to-ground arsenal of the Navy (and part of the air-air missiles?)
Maybe not for real combat missions (even if for CAS it could be cool), but at least as an advanced trainer?

Or maybe, if the USN didn't want a combat variant, it could be a good base for some export variants, to Brazil for example.
And if the USA paid for the cariier variant developpement, maybe a French variant could appeared in order to replace the Zephir (instead of training our pilots in the USA)?

What about a dedicated close air support / forward air control variant as a cheap replacement for the OA-4 Skyhawks?
For would the Alpha Jets landing gear arrangement not allow for good rough-field performance, so it could operate from makeshift runways??

Just a thought!

M.A.D

kitbasher

I wonder if Alpha Jets would make decent (eventual) replacements for the two Gloster Meteors still used by Martin-Baker for bang-seat trials?  possibly not as the rear cockpit is probably too small for the larger seats.  ;D ;D
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Archibald

#24
QuoteThe last proposed variants of the Gadget had an Agave radar for ground attack and anti-ship purpose (with Exocet ability), or a FLIR/laser ranger similar to the Jaguar one in the nose.
It was actually a "mini Mirage", one of tDassault's two proposals (with the Super Etendard line re-operture) to offer low-cost attack planes alongside the Mirage 2000C interceptor variant, waiting for a dedicate strike Mirage 2000.

As far as I know, the last thought about the Alpha Jet were about some advanced designs, a single seat variant based on the two seat design (with aditionnal fuel instaed of the back seat), probably with more powerfull engine in option (but the exact type was  probably not chosen at this time), heavier payload, a new avionic (HUD, new navigation and attack system based on the Mirage 2000 one etc...) and a radar or an optronic nose.
Maybe a new wing, based on the supercritical one that was tested (in Germany?) on the Alpha Jet, was taken into consideration for better performances and bigger internal tanks...

Later, the Alpha Je could have received much more goodies, like a multimode radar (RC-400 or APG-66/67), much more powerfull engines, wingtip missiles including MICA and AMRAAM in option, glass cockpit etc etc...
For the payload, bigger external tanks (something around 1000litre) will be good, and they probably could carry everything that fit under the wings (i.e. quite all the NATOs weapons!).

I think Saddam could have been interested by this variant, to compliment its fleet of Mirage 4000.


Israeli Alphajet to replace their Magister/Tzukit (no De Gaulle embargo)

Naval light attack/trainer based on the old Arromanches carrier, to replace the Zephyr (naval Magister).
Give it two or four Magic-2 underwings plus A2G weapons.

Supersonic Alphajet with Mirage air intakes. Something like an enlarged Pampa with an Adour!

King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

TsrJoe

... i recall reading that there were some in the Finnish air force who favoured the Dassault/Dornier Alphajet over the chosen HS. Hawk ... something different as a quick paint conversion perhaps?

(im unsure as to what other types were looked at for the 'Magister replacement competition' im guessing the Aero L.39 was another tho?)

cheers, Joe  :wacko:
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rickshaw

Awakening an old thread.  QinetQ apparently operates Alphas in camouflage and RAF markings:

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Aircav

They'ed look better in Afghanistan, armed  ;D
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Weaver

The Airfix re-release has the QuinetQ (stupid bloody name  :angry:) markings, doesn't it?
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Nils

Quote from: Weaver on June 05, 2010, 02:10:30 AM
The Airfix re-release has the QuinetiQ (stupid bloody name  :angry:) markings, doesn't it?
yes it does, i come in 2 version, the QuinetiQ ex-german version and a Belgian version  ;D
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