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F-4 (F4H-1)(F-110) Phantom

Started by Glenn Harper, July 11, 2002, 01:21:58 AM

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tahsin

Multiple options, not limited to American guns alone. That's the first time. Real colourful times... Second time was when the USN was testing an underbody conformal thing that allowed the plane fly faster with 12 "small bombs" than a clean one. This thing involves 30 or 50 year type of classifications and not even people who catalogue such hidden projects will stomach you being aware of existance of such things. (Tested and proven to be true.) But people might re-direct interested others to the last page of the sister forum. Where the final solution seems to be the GAU-9. Which must be the Oerlikon that uses the same round with the Avenger. Flexibility apparently demands it to be carried in pod form. So that the necessary qualifications will enable the project to be killed in due course in interests of saving money. The Phantom would be around in higher numbers in case people could make a choice to decide which one of the Teen series would be killed early.

But yeah, a conformal pod will let you keep your radar and the No1 fuel cell, when you put two 600 gallon tanks on the outer wing pylons. And satisfy some fetish about the GAU-8, too.

kitnut617

Quote from: rickshaw on August 16, 2022, 01:55:21 AM
What were the guns?  Why did they fail to be adopted?

I've seen a drawing on one of the forums, which shows four M39 20mm revolver cannon.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

glorious.tachikoma

Quote from: tahsin on August 16, 2022, 05:22:20 AM
Multiple options, not limited to American guns alone. That's the first time. Real colourful times... Second time was when the USN was testing an underbody conformal thing that allowed the plane fly faster with 12 "small bombs" than a clean one. This thing involves 30 or 50 year type of classifications and not even people who catalogue such hidden projects will stomach you being aware of existance of such things. (Tested and proven to be true.) But people might re-direct interested others to the last page of the sister forum. Where the final solution seems to be the GAU-9. Which must be the Oerlikon that uses the same round with the Avenger. Flexibility apparently demands it to be carried in pod form. So that the necessary qualifications will enable the project to be killed in due course in interests of saving money. The Phantom would be around in higher numbers in case people could make a choice to decide which one of the Teen series would be killed early.

But yeah, a conformal pod will let you keep your radar and the No1 fuel cell, when you put two 600 gallon tanks on the outer wing pylons. And satisfy some fetish about the GAU-8, too.

I thought that was for late Mickey-D and then Boeing for the F-4E and it was nixed because of the maintenance nightmare of accessing all the obstructed panels by the belly tank. Its a great idea on paper, but it also makes the F-4 look as ungainly as the F-3H Demon. If one is going to the trouble of the belly tank, I prefer the idea of lots of little 500lb hardpoints being retrofitted to the wing and fuselage a'la F-16XL. And there's no way to completely pod the gun and still have a meaningful ammunition capacity without incurring a huge drag penalty which brings half of the SUU-23's problems back to the table.


MAD

#334
Quoteglorious.tachikoma:
Hypothetically......is there anything keeping the #1 fuel cell being deleted for a smaller, Hornet-size (~400 rounds) drum and podding the M61 just aft the nose gear bay?

So in a sense, MiG-27 style arrangement!

Quoteglorious.tachikoma:
Comparing data, it seems the F-4J could turn much harder than a hard-wing F-4E and in 1971

I Neither knew or appreciated that!

Would you consider a ventral conformal  gun fairing arrangement like that of the MiG-21/MiG-23 and JA-37 Viggen? This ventral conformal fairing arrangement wouldn't require the internal space/preparation of what you are proposing for the installation of an M61 Vulcan cannon and its large ammunition drum and feed system (and you get to keep your fuel and range). Granted, 150 x 30mm rds doesn't sound as sexy as 400 x 20mm rds, but your pilots are going to need to train more efficiently in gunnery + the destructive power of the 30mm round vs the 20mm round will compensate somewhat.
 
MAD

glorious.tachikoma

Quote from: MAD on August 21, 2022, 05:34:15 AMI Neither knew or appreciated that!

Would you consider a ventral conformal  gun fairing arrangement like that of the MiG-21/MiG-23 and JA-37 Viggen? This ventral conformal fairing arrangement wouldn't require the internal space/preparation of what you are proposing for the installation of an M61 Vulcan cannon and its large ammunition drum and feed system (and you get to keep your fuel and range). Granted, 150 x 30mm rds doesn't sound as sexy as 400 x 20mm rds, but your pilots are going to need to train more efficiently in gunnery + the destructive power of the 30mm round vs the 20mm round will compensate somewhat.
 
MAD

I have since decided just to go with the F-4E for the purpose of this project. It looks much better with a shark mouth on the nose, and my space alien refugees need aircraft by 1971 without waiting for McDonnell to engineer an optimized design, lol. And the tables I was looking at used a F-4J with about two tons lighter than the hard-wing F-4E. When I applied a corrective % to account for this, the F-4J only turns about one degree per second better than the F-4E. Turns out my assumption that the wing on the Navy and AF birds were the same must be wrong; there is more of an empty weight disparity between Navy and AF models than I can believably attribute to landing gear, IFR probe, and a few black boxes. The F-4E empty is lighter by about a ton than the F-4J so they are not as disparate as I had first guessed.

I'm starting to feel like I work on Heatblur's research team.  :sleepy:

BACK TO THE TOPIC!

You are correct! The 30mm shells of the era make much more sense for an applique-podded application, but for something McDonnell would be exporting, the base model would have to use a 20x102 cannon.

I've developed another hypothetical export fighter idea to compete with the F-5E. In 1972 McDonnell are buying back F-4B's with terminal avionics and radar faults, stripping the navy equipment, BLS, WSO cockpit, and APQ-72; and then installing F-4J digital avionics computers, an Emerson AN/APQ-153, and turning the Sparrow wells into semi-conformal 500lb hardpoints. I found a source that indicates an ADEN and 200rnds of ammunition is a little over 400lb, likely in reference to the AV-8A's twin gunpods. This makes me think a M39 and a 280rnd box of 20x102mm (like the F-5E) would be a very doable gunpod to mount on the starboard Sparrow well and adequately arm a high-energy day-fighter. I have an Aeries F-5E gun bay set on the way for dimension estimation.

Zero-Sen


ysi_maniac

#337
Another IAI speculative product for Argentina to rebuild Air Force: Scaleoramed Phantom.

Will die without understanding this world.

NARSES2

That's got a rather purposeful look about it  :thumbsup:
Decals my @r$e!