What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: The Rat on September 26, 2005, 03:21:27 PM

Title: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Rat on September 26, 2005, 03:21:27 PM
I was reading a review of the Airfix Westland Whirlwind today, and had one of those whiff moments. I see either those awful RR Peregrines getting improved, or Merlins or Griffons fitted, and the resultant aircraft being navalised and carrying 2 torpedos. I would probably add leading edge slats to improve the low speed handling, might need to beef up the landing gear, add an arrestor hook of course.

Anyone know the weight of the torpedo carried by contemporary aircraft such as the Swordfish? I feel the Whirlwind could probably handle two, but I would rather be sure.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on September 26, 2005, 04:58:56 PM
Rat san;

Most of the torpedos carried by aircraft for surface ship attack weighed somewhere betweeen 1500 pound (~800 kg) to 2200 pounds (1000 kg).  If the Whirlwind was capable of lifting a 2000 pound bomb load then you should be able to create a torpedo bomber variant. 

Keep in mind that the Sea Mosquito was rigged to carry an 18.0'' torpedo externally beneath the bomb bay so if you are looking for inspiration on how to strap one on, use the Sea Mosquito as an example. 

The American Mk 13 Torpedo weighed approximately 2000 pounds (900 kg).
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Gary on September 26, 2005, 05:22:35 PM
The Beaufighter carried a 728 kilo 18" torpedo. I dunno the weight of the SeaMossie's sausage, but I imagine it were similar.

It's the same one used by the Sea Typhoon.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.whatifmodelers.com%2Fforum%2Fuploads%2Fpost-2-1105114810.jpg&hash=90036afce0a2a01bfef51a2bcd175815e5d886c0)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Rat on September 26, 2005, 08:30:21 PM
Hmmm... a wee bit heavier than I thought, perhaps it will just carry one. The genuine article was known to occasionally haul two 500lb bombs, so it should carry a torpedo easily. And since it would be operating off a carrier it would need to shorten the take-off run.

I remember the Sea Typhoon, and gushed over it at the time, but let me say it again - lovely! Don't think I've seen your Hellcat before Ollie, but she's a beauty too!

Belly up to the bar lads, you've both earned a round!  :cheers:

Oh, by the way, what torpedos did you guys use, if they're 1/72nd that is?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on September 27, 2005, 03:42:11 AM
Martin H is your Whirlwind man he has a whole string of them including a Merlin engined Sea Whirlwind complete with torp in BPF markings

Chris
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: lancer on September 27, 2005, 05:33:31 AM
I'm thinking of doing a Whilrwind with Merlin engines as part of Coastal command. Single seat anti shipping/strike fighter. Torp or rockets along with the 4 20mm's would pack a hell of a punch. It'd also make a decent night intruder I think.  
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on September 27, 2005, 02:59:45 PM
QuoteI'm thinking of doing a Whilrwind with Merlin engines as part of Coastal command. Single seat anti shipping/strike fighter. Torp or rockets along with the 4 20mm's would pack a hell of a punch. It'd also make a decent night intruder I think.
Sounds like a fully booted and suited Mk-2 Lance.

had it been developed the Mk-2 would have replaced the Pergrins with Merlins and the fuel system would have been re jigged to allow fuel tranfer between left and right tanks., plus drop tank caperble pylons, may well have be able to do berlin and back, way before the P-51 showed up to play. the Banff wing might have looked a bit differnt had the 2 come to pass.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Leigh on September 27, 2005, 04:35:00 PM
Quotesorry Ratty, I have a habit of doing that........just ask wooksta  ;)

Yeah you do, I was just thinking "mmm nice idea and something to do with all my FAA far east decals" and up pops the picture.
Lovely Windy by the way :wub:  Guess I'll just have to go gloss sea blue and Stars and Bars
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Rat on September 27, 2005, 07:22:29 PM
Quotesorry Ratty, I have a habit of doing that........just ask wooksta  ;)
Ah well, at least you did the old gal proud.  :wub:

Did you put leading edge slats on? I seem to recall the Whirlwind had a high landing speed, or maybe I'm thinking of something else.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: lancer on September 28, 2005, 02:18:37 AM
QuoteSounds like a fully booted and suited Mk-2 Lance.

had it been developed the Mk-2 would have replaced the Pergrins with Merlins and the fuel system would have been re jigged to allow fuel tranfer between left and right tanks., plus drop tank caperble pylons, may well have be able to do berlin and back, way before the P-51 showed up to play. the Banff wing might have looked a bit differnt had the 2 come to pass.
Looks like I'll be buildin a Mk2 then.  I was thinking about a lang range escort version as well. I may well do that one as well. Now all I nbeed to do is buy some more Whirlwinds...
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 08, 2008, 07:52:16 AM
Has anyone considered using the slipper tanks from the Mosquito on the Whirlwind?  They were available in 50 and 100 gallon sizes. 
Perhaps a Whilwind fitted with slipper tanks and rockets under the wings and a large bomb under the fuselage.  Was there sufficient space between the engine nacelles and the fuselage to allow carriage of stores?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Maverick on June 08, 2008, 08:20:51 AM
I did a bunch of Whirlys in my profile thread and included some up-engined & twin tub examples.

Regards,

Mav
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on November 26, 2008, 12:10:28 AM
Some real world armament options for the Whirlwind:

12 x 0.303:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FALT%2520RAN%2520FAA%2Fscan0004.jpg&hash=9ed56025045cc540f48f81130b54e4fd749c38a0)

1 x 37mm cannon:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FALT%2520RAN%2520FAA%2Fscan0003.jpg&hash=94b017bc4559a23b6aa0d1323ef31407872bfdef)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FALT%2520RAN%2520FAA%2Fscan0005.jpg&hash=0c7e870ceb5884dfcd5777b1c3e16271c37eb30a)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FALT%2520RAN%2520FAA%2Fscan0006.jpg&hash=7dc488cc856c69c3c86ac66f0b8ce658e5ac2605)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: sequoiaranger on November 26, 2008, 10:13:34 AM
TWELVE .303's? ONE 37mm?

Re: the 37mm--WHY?? it seems that FOUR 20mm's would put out a dose of explosive lead far in excess to that of a single .37mm.  If it's for anti-tank usage, even the single-engined Hurricane carried TWO 40mm guns-- a SINGLE 37mm gun seems way under-armed for a twin-engined plane.

Re: twelve .303's--loading up that small nose cone with twelve guns seems a little excessive. Imagine all the brass casings flying around inside that little space when the guns go off!! I suppose each gun would have an ejection chute leading down, but still!! Then, with so many guns going off in front of the pilot, how's he supposed to see what he's shooting at once the guns fire and send smoke at the windscreen? At least with the Hurricane's twelve guns (out on the wings) the view forward is un-obscured.

But, experimentation is vital to understanding. It would just seem that some forethought would make such experimentation unnecessary. At least with experimentation you have KNOWLEDGE rather than speculation.

PS-- the single 37mm gun in the pug nose of the aircraft makes the Whirlwind look like a prize-fighter with a stogy (cigar) in pursed lips!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: dy031101 on November 26, 2008, 10:27:20 AM
Quote from: sequoiaranger on November 26, 2008, 10:13:34 AM
WHY?? it seems that FOUR 20mm's would put out a dose of explosive lead far in excess to that of a single .37mm.  If it's for anti-tank usage, even the single-engined Hurricane carried TWO 40mm guns-- a SINGLE 37mm gun seems way under-armed for a twin-engined plane.

The 37mm gun probably has a higher rate of fire and ammo capacity than the two guns on Hurricane......

But then it's my uneducated speculation.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on November 26, 2008, 10:24:12 PM
There is an old debate on what that photo shows.
What is known is that the extended and broadened nose was for the testing of a four-abreast mounting of belt-fed 20mm cannon.
This modified nose is also stated to have been intended for a single 40mm (rather than 37mm cannon) mounting, however there is some
doubt that this weapon was ever flown. Evidently some have argued over the years that the photo does not show a 40mm cannon, rather
they believe that it shows a 20mm cannon standing in for the 40mm.

The twelve .303 mount was originally mocked up by Martin-Baker and it was built as a 'quick-reload' weapon egg (a fairing covered cadmium plated steel-tube structure mounting the guns and ammo boxes), the intent being that a pre-loaded egg would be swapped out for the empty one after a sortie.

'Westland Aircraft since 1915', Derek N James, 1991 Putnam/Naval Institute Press

Jon
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on November 27, 2008, 05:31:43 AM
Quote from: sequoiaranger on November 26, 2008, 10:13:34 AM
TWELVE .303's? ONE 37mm?

Re: the 37mm--WHY?? it seems that FOUR 20mm's would put out a dose of explosive lead far in excess to that of a single .37mm.  If it's for anti-tank usage, even the single-engined Hurricane carried TWO 40mm guns-- a SINGLE 37mm gun seems way under-armed for a twin-engined plane.


I would imagine that they were looking for a larger punch, probably against armoured targets.  A 20mm shell (even four) has trouble penetrating armour, but a I think a 37mm shell woulld.  So as a can opener, one 37mm cannon would be more effective than four 20mm.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on November 27, 2008, 06:22:58 AM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on November 26, 2008, 10:24:12 PM
There is an old debate on what that photo shows.
What is known is that the extended and broadened nose was for the testing of a four-abreast mounting of belt-fed 20mm cannon.
This modified nose is also stated to have been intended for a single 40mm (rather than 37mm cannon) mounting, however there is some
doubt that this weapon was ever flown. Evidently some have argued over the years that the photo does not show a 40mm cannon, rather
they believe that it shows a 20mm cannon standing in for the 40mm.

The twelve .303 mount was originally mocked up by Martin-Baker and it was built as a 'quick-reload' weapon egg (a fairing covered cadmium plated steel-tube structure mounting the guns and ammo boxes), the intent being that a pre-loaded egg would be swapped out for the empty one after a sortie.

'Westland Aircraft since 1915', Derek N James, 1991 Putnam/Naval Institute Press

Jon

That's very interesting Jon, would you know if the extended nose was also to enclose the guns for better streamlining.  What would the two bulges be for on top of the nose just in front of the windshield ? Some .303's maybe to give it the same punch as a Mosquito/Beaufighter ?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on November 27, 2008, 11:45:27 AM
Something I just threw together - a super, developed Whirlwind:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2Fwhirlwindsuper.jpg&hash=54ea5003a814a9aecfcf81aa7337164fb91ba15a)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on November 27, 2008, 12:17:33 PM
Quote from: GTX on November 27, 2008, 11:45:27 AM
Something I just threw together - a super, developed Whirlwind:

Regards,

Greg

Love it, what would it look like with the rear fuselage stretched out say three or four feet Greg, to offset some of that forward weight.  As the fuselage is practically a straight tube it wouldn't have proved to be a problem I think.

Robert
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on November 27, 2008, 01:38:16 PM
Quote from: kitnut617 on November 27, 2008, 06:22:58 AM
That's very interesting Jon, would you know if the extended nose was also to enclose the guns for better streamlining.  What would the two bulges be for on top of the nose just in front of the windshield ? Some .303's maybe to give it the same punch as a Mosquito/Beaufighter ?

Hi Simon,
adding .303s along with the 20mm Hissos was evidently part of Petter's new armament scheme.

The ammo amount for the 20s was greatly increased in the belt-fed scheme:
two guns with 150 round belts and two with 200 hundred round belts, 700 rounds total.
A dramatic increase over the four 60-round drums of the standard layout.

A version with that nose armament (adding a couple of Brownings and a near tripling of the 20mm load would add considerable weight) and re-engined with Merlins would have required a fuselage stretch, especially with Petter's plans to increase fuel tankage... of course, knowing Petter, he probably would have resisted a lengthening, insisting that he could rearrange and re-ballast to get the correct CG, regardless of how crowded and questionable the final layout. He was often blinded by his own 'brilliance'.

Jon
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on November 28, 2008, 12:54:26 PM
Quote from: kitnut617 on November 27, 2008, 12:17:33 PM
Quote from: GTX on November 27, 2008, 11:45:27 AM
Something I just threw together - a super, developed Whirlwind:

Regards,

Greg

Love it, what would it look like with the rear fuselage stretched out say three or four feet Greg, to offset some of that forward weight.  As the fuselage is practically a straight tube it wouldn't have proved to be a problem I think.

Robert

How's this:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2Fsuperwhirlwindstretched.jpg&hash=c2de4543919c04a0426e7b10aecca86af1ecf827)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on November 28, 2008, 01:07:43 PM
Ooo! now that looks like a serious what-if in the making.  Thanks Greg  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on January 29, 2009, 04:16:50 AM
It's usually stated that the Whirlwind was "so tightly designed" around it's Peregrins that no other engine could be substituted, Merlins being too big & heavy for the wing structure etc....

However, if you simply want to replace the Peregrins with something more reliable, rather than more powerful, then why couldn't a pair of Mercurys have been fitted? The Mercury XX with 100 octane fuel could put out nearly 1000hp, and although obviously more draggy, was also a useful 140-odd lb lighter than the Peregrine. Since the aircraft ended up being used mainly for ground attack, the damage tolerance of the air-cooled Mercury would have been useful, and although the Whirlwind's radiators were pretty slick, eliminating them would still have clawed back a bit drag. You could also have used that 280lb weight saving for armour/fuel/payload.

The result would have been, effectively, a "Blenfighter"..... ;D

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: JayBee on January 29, 2009, 09:30:54 AM
I have just found this thread, and to say that my flabber was gassted when I saw GTX's profiles, is a serious understatement.

This was sarted about four months ago (I am a slow builder!).

The fuselage stretch is about five scale feet, and yes it is getting a Sea Fury's canopy.

JayBee

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: sequoiaranger on February 01, 2009, 01:59:06 AM
>...it is getting a Sea Fury's canopy.<

I can't think of any rationale for it, but I think the stretched Whirlwind would look
COOL
with the twin-bubble "Baghdad Fury" canopy look!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: sequoiaranger on February 01, 2009, 09:38:20 AM
OK, so it looks silly rather than cool. Still............?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on February 01, 2009, 10:22:20 AM
The twin seat Welkin Nightfighter canopy might be better.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: JayBee on February 01, 2009, 12:41:08 PM
Rationale! RATIONALE!! WHO NEEDS A RATIONALE?

OK, better visibility from a fully blown canopy, as compared to the segmented one of the original design (like the early and late Wyverns).

AND it will look COOL!

But not the Baghdad Fury twin Canopy.
Ye Gods, you might as well make it up like the Persian, or Russian, two-seater Hurricanes, with an open front cockpit.
NO, No, I did not suggest that!!!

JayBee
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: ElectrikBlue on April 07, 2009, 02:23:28 PM
Whirlwind with fw-190 canopy and Whirlwind with bigger guns!  ;D

Regards,

EB
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Logan Hartke on April 07, 2009, 04:13:55 PM
Okay.  Those.  Are Nice.  They look great!

Logan
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: pyro-manic on April 07, 2009, 04:18:22 PM
That they do! The 190's cockpit fits very nicely with the sleek lines of the Whirlwind. Almost like it was supposed to go on there!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on April 09, 2009, 11:27:54 AM
Nice!

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: JayBee on April 09, 2009, 12:07:13 PM
SATAN get thee behind me.
I am going to stick to the Sea Fury canopy.
I think!

JimB
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on April 09, 2009, 03:18:33 PM
Something I just whipped (or should that be whiffed) up:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2F3b10e321.jpg%3Ft%3D1239315480&hash=3ec6d0717d2a36d689bf059acc576e55a174ef3c)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on April 09, 2009, 04:14:03 PM
Oooh, that's just wrong!!!

(Someone build it!)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: pyro-manic on April 09, 2009, 04:25:32 PM
Burn the witch!!! :o
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on April 09, 2009, 04:31:44 PM
So they can brew more beer.....

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi72.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi176%2FMossie105%2FGeneral%2FMontyPythonsHolyAil.jpg&hash=a0d2bbfb8e87ddb81a588216e8633126eb18a346)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on April 09, 2009, 06:12:42 PM
Quote from: pyro-manic on April 09, 2009, 04:25:32 PM
Burn the witch!!! :o

Ah but which of us is a witch?

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Rat on April 09, 2009, 06:48:03 PM
Quote from: GTX on April 09, 2009, 06:12:42 PM
Quote from: pyro-manic on April 09, 2009, 04:25:32 PM
Burn the witch!!! :o

Ah but which of us is a witch?

Regards,

Greg

Do you float?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on April 10, 2009, 10:37:41 AM
Well,  I'm not made of wood...

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on April 10, 2009, 02:43:16 PM
Better or worse?

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2Ff7786c62.jpg%3Ft%3D1239399784&hash=269dda8bd8415e0a98c6f544c1b5d2ec5054ef2a)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: ElectrikBlue on April 10, 2009, 05:01:55 PM
Better!  :thumbsup:

Regards,

EB
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on April 10, 2009, 05:26:04 PM
But he is dressed like one..... or maybe it's a Princess!!! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on April 10, 2009, 05:37:38 PM
Wear a skirt once...

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: comrade harps on April 11, 2009, 02:54:52 AM
I have a Sovietize it concept for an East of Urals produced Whirlwind (they got the jigs after the Poms stopped making them in Dec '41), but with Lend-Lease Packard Merlin engines. Maybe with a Brit 18 inch torpedo on the centreline.

What would be the best donor for a couple of Merlins? A Mosquito, Hornet, two Firefly kits or another source?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 11, 2009, 04:49:43 AM
A Lancaster, then you have two Merlins left over for something else, and you can make a Lincoln with the rest. Or a glider maybe...........  ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on September 16, 2009, 09:10:47 AM
I thought I saw somewhere here a model of a Westland Whirlwind with jet engines, but doing a search doesn't show anything.  I fairly sure I did see it on this forum, can anyone direct me to the thread please.

Robert
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: ElectrikBlue on September 16, 2009, 09:18:54 AM
Seawind here:
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,23987.0.html
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PACOPEPE on September 16, 2009, 09:37:04 AM
Hi Kitnut617. I´m PACOPEPE from Spain. Do you like it?. What´s your opinion about it?. Do you want to know something else?.

I´m very happy for your interest. :thumbsup:



Cheers
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on September 16, 2009, 10:51:29 AM
Hey guys, thanks for that.  I'm sure I've seen another though.

PP, it's a very novel idea and looks really good, I've posted a link to your thread over on the ATF forum as there's a fellow there thinking about doing a Jet Whirlwind.

Robert
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Thorvic on September 16, 2009, 11:07:56 AM
http://www.modelairplaneinternational.com/full_site/frames/events/reviews/006.htm (http://www.modelairplaneinternational.com/full_site/frames/events/reviews/006.htm)
Picture of TsrJoes Jet-Whirlwind display model from R&D Sig stand 2005, thinks its one for Tony Buttlers BSPIII book

G
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on September 16, 2009, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Thorvic on September 16, 2009, 11:07:56 AM
http://www.modelairplaneinternational.com/full_site/frames/events/reviews/006.htm (http://www.modelairplaneinternational.com/full_site/frames/events/reviews/006.htm)
Picture of TsrJoes Jet-Whirlwind display model from R&D Sig stand 2005, thinks its one for Tony Buttlers BSPIII book

G

That's the one Geoff, thanks mate  :thumbsup:  I must have seen it in the What-If & Oddball site.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on September 16, 2009, 12:45:12 PM
The title has got me thinking about a 1950's Airwolf, hmmm..... ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on September 17, 2009, 07:50:23 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on September 16, 2009, 12:19:00 PM
Quote from: Thorvic on September 16, 2009, 11:07:56 AM
http://www.modelairplaneinternational.com/full_site/frames/events/reviews/006.htm (http://www.modelairplaneinternational.com/full_site/frames/events/reviews/006.htm)
Picture of TsrJoes Jet-Whirlwind display model from R&D Sig stand 2005, thinks its one for Tony Buttlers BSPIII book

G

That's the one Geoff, thanks mate  :thumbsup:  I must have seen it in the What-If & Oddball site.

As it happens, I can't find the photo of this in either place, just looked through my BSP books and didn't find it there, nor on the What-If & Oddball site.  Now where the heck have I seen it before ?????
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: lancer on September 17, 2009, 08:52:52 AM
Been thinking about doing a jet powered Whirlwind for a long time. the only difference is that I am looking to do mine with swept wings in place of the straight ones.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PACOPEPE on September 17, 2009, 09:24:19 AM
Hi again Kitnut617. Please, search the following: Gloster Whirlwind Ii . Just so.

Nevertheless, i like my Seawind much more. :lol:


regards
PACOPEPE

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on September 17, 2009, 11:02:20 AM
Quote from: PACOPEPE on September 17, 2009, 09:24:19 AM
Hi again Kitnut617. Please, search the following: Gloster Whirlwind Ii . Just so.

Nevertheless, i like my Seawind much more. :lol:


regards
PACOPEPE


Hi PacoPepe, thanks, that must have been where I saw it before.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on March 27, 2010, 03:02:45 PM
Inspired by apophenia's Defiant based Long-range escort fighter (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,27707.15.html) (believe it or not):

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2FTurretww.jpg&hash=c2d1c14083a0be842a4bec5be0ef4adb9a65656a)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 27, 2010, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: apophenia on March 27, 2010, 05:38:12 PM
Now _that_ is some serious firepower  :thumbsup:

In two different directions at the same time!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on March 31, 2010, 02:13:25 AM
Quote from: apophenia on March 28, 2010, 03:40:14 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 27, 2010, 05:48:21 PM
In two different directions at the same time!  :thumbsup:

Hmmm, with no Defiant prop in the way, that BP turret could also be fired in the forward, low-drag position ...

You don't think the pilot might be a little uncomfortable with four MMGs going off next to his ears?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: van883 on April 01, 2010, 12:05:15 AM
I think the fuselage would have to be MUCH fatter to accommodate a turret. nice profile, though!
Van
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jorel62 on April 01, 2010, 02:37:26 AM
Maybe something like these?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2010, 03:23:54 AM
Quote from: van883 on April 01, 2010, 12:05:15 AM
I think the fuselage would have to be MUCH fatter to accommodate a turret. nice profile, though!
Van

Well why not run with that? Make the fuselage wider to take a turret and them mount the nose Hispanos in a horizontal line like a Mosquito's .303s, thus:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2Fprofiles%2Fwidewind.jpg&hash=44edc87bdab32a0b0353347edf08ae49bb580305)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2010, 03:25:19 AM
Quote from: jorel62 on April 01, 2010, 02:37:26 AM
Maybe something like these?

Like it - Whirlwindified other types.... :wacko:

I still have a Whirlwind-winged Defiant on the to-do list.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on April 01, 2010, 04:01:49 AM
Quote from: jorel62 on April 01, 2010, 02:37:26 AM
Maybe something like these?

I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...

What engines are you proposing and where are the radiators?
Title: Whirlwind-ized P-40, and a "Fatter" Whirlwind
Post by: sequoiaranger on April 01, 2010, 06:11:13 AM
Oh, yeah!

Curtiss *DiD* make a twin-engined P-40, but the engines were more on top of the wings (blocking side-view considerably) than the Whirlwind's more rational underslung ones.

Someone here (sorry, I forgot who) made one like that, and I have one "in the pipeline" for a future build.

As far as "fattening" the Whirlwind to put in a turret, one of the salient features of the Whirlwind was the extremely narrow fuselage that kept wind resistance to a minimum. Fatten the fuselage and put in a turret, and, well,...the aerodynamic advantages disappear. You would now have a "Mosquito" with the low power of Peregrine engines instead of Merlins.
Title: Re: Whirlwind-ized P-40, and a "Fatter" Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2010, 07:00:23 AM
Quote from: sequoiaranger on April 01, 2010, 06:11:13 AM


As far as "fattening" the Whirlwind to put in a turret, one of the salient features of the Whirlwind was the extremely narrow fuselage that kept wind resistance to a minimum. Fatten the fuselage and put in a turret, and, well,...the aerodynamic advantages disappear. You would now have a "Mosquito" with the low power of Peregrine engines instead of Merlins.

Yes, but it'd be funny in a "really bad ideas" kind of way........ :wacko:

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on April 01, 2010, 10:00:46 AM
Altough that was exactly the way Westland went about it.  There are two turreted designs with design elements of the Whirlwind in British Secret Projects, both single engined with a Centaurus. There's a turreted naval aircraft to N.9/39 that uses similar fuselage & tail to the Whirlwind, but deepened.  There's also a dive bomber to B.20/40 that is similar, but has a slightlydifferent profile to the rear fuse & Whirlwind wings.

I came across these when I was I thinking about a single engined Whirlwind & saw that Westlands themselves had come up with several designs.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on April 16, 2010, 08:50:45 AM
Thinking about the discussion about whether the Whirlwind should have been up-engined to use the Merlin, I've found that is what Westland had planned.  I've been reading an article about the Westland Welkin in the latest issue of Aeromilitaria that I get from Air-Britain, and it's written by Phil Butler, that is very interesting.  The Welkin was originally designed to Specification F.4/40 (later to F.7/41) and it was at first refered to as the Whirlwind Development (Merlin XX).  So really it's no accident that the Welkin looks very similar to the Whirlwind.

Comparing my models of the Whirlwind and Welkin, I can see that simply installing the Merlins onto the Whirlwind wasn't as easy as it sounds, the aircraft got at least one and half times bigger, almost two times bigger.

Further into the article it says there was to be a Welkin Mk.III with uprated Merlins (or even 'handed' Merlins) and a Mk.IV which was a Mk.III but with Griffons.  Both these types would have got a 'high speed' wing which would have had 20% increased chord but with the same maximium chord depth.   The Welkin wing was the factor to it's restricted speed even though the Merlins could have powered it faster.

Interestingly, the single Welkin NF Mk.II was used right up to 1950 in various testing rolls.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on April 16, 2010, 09:03:57 PM
I've just found out that Special Hobby do a Whirlwind kit in 1/72.  Has anybody made one?  How does it compare to the Airfix one?  Its about 3 times the price. Is it worth it?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on April 17, 2010, 01:38:02 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on April 16, 2010, 09:03:57 PM
I've just found out that Special Hobby do a Whirlwind kit in 1/72.  Has anybody made one?  How does it compare to the Airfix one?  Its about 3 times the price. Is it worth it?

I've got both versions of the SH kit (and will get the third). It's very nice in the box. Looks as though it will make a superb model. As for value for money then thats a bit subjective. The Airfix kit still gives you an accurate looking Whirlwind the SH one gives you all the bells and whistles as well...horses for courses.

Personally my SH kits will be real world,excepting the thrid issue which will inc. the version tested with a 37mm (40mm ?) cannon which will become a SEAC bunker buster. Airfix is ideal for Wiffery, ask Martin Higgs  ;D
Title: "Airfix is ideal for Wiffery"?
Post by: sequoiaranger on April 17, 2010, 08:31:09 AM
I'm curious what you meant by that. To me, the BEST rendition of the model kit you can find of a subject makes the BEST whiff. But, if your point is that the thicker plastic of the old kits (Airfix, FROG, Comet, Lindberg, Aurora, etc) allows for a little "wiggle room" when matching things up or shaping to fit, then I would agree.

The original Airfix kit of the Westland Whirlwind (pre-1970?) was fairly crude (I had one built), but they put out a highly improved version in the 1970's, I think, and it was much better and more detailed. I have not seen the SH one.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on April 17, 2010, 09:44:07 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on April 17, 2010, 01:38:02 AM
Airfix is ideal for Wiffery, ask Martin Higgs  ;D

The Bearded wonder speaks the truth :)
Title: Re: "Airfix is ideal for Wiffery"?
Post by: NARSES2 on April 19, 2010, 03:32:11 AM
Quote from: sequoiaranger on April 17, 2010, 08:31:09 AM
I'm curious what you meant by that. To me, the BEST rendition of the model kit you can find of a subject makes the BEST whiff. But, if your point is that the thicker plastic of the old kits (Airfix, FROG, Comet, Lindberg, Aurora, etc) allows for a little "wiggle room" when matching things up or shaping to fit, then I would agree.


Simply that the Airfix kit is far cheaper (at least in the UK) and probably more readily available as well. I'm really only a re-paint man rather then a "cut and shut" man when it comes to wiffery, but if embarking on "cut and shut" I wouldn't want to butcher the expensive kit. Understand what you are saying though
Title: Re: Whirlwind-ized P-40, and a "Fatter" Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on April 19, 2010, 05:06:43 AM
Quote from: Weaver on April 01, 2010, 07:00:23 AM
Quote from: sequoiaranger on April 01, 2010, 06:11:13 AM


As far as "fattening" the Whirlwind to put in a turret, one of the salient features of the Whirlwind was the extremely narrow fuselage that kept wind resistance to a minimum. Fatten the fuselage and put in a turret, and, well,...the aerodynamic advantages disappear. You would now have a "Mosquito" with the low power of Peregrine engines instead of Merlins.

Yes, but it'd be funny in a "really bad ideas" kind of way........ :wacko:



Actually, thinking about it, it wouldn't have to be that wide: only as wide as a Defiant, which is still way narrower than a Mosquito...
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: brewerjerry on April 24, 2010, 08:56:13 AM
Quote from: GTX on April 09, 2009, 03:18:33 PM
Something I just whipped (or should that be whiffed) up:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2F3b10e321.jpg%3Ft%3D1239315480&hash=3ec6d0717d2a36d689bf059acc576e55a174ef3c)

Regards,

Greg

Hi
   Now this I like,
   Westlands actually proposed a whirlwind with american radial engine, i probably was either wright cyclone 1820 or the pratt & whitney 1830, I havenèt worked out which would have fitted yet, i.e.. size ..weight
   Out of curiosity, which engines are in the profile
      cheers
        Jerry

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: brewerjerry on April 24, 2010, 09:08:08 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on April 16, 2010, 09:03:57 PM
I've just found out that Special Hobby do a Whirlwind kit in 1/72.  Has anybody made one?  How does it compare to the Airfix one?  Its about 3 times the price. Is it worth it?

Hi
   I have the fighter bomber quite nice and just ordered the latest issue  ..different whirlwinds..off e bay.
    The idea i have is to use the nose cone, remove the 37mm and convert the longer nose back to the PR nose that westlands originally were going to do. It could look nice in PRU colours.
  I was think of putting the nose on the airfix, cheaper than using the special hobby.
   Someone told me that they thought special hobby may issue a 1:48 version.........would be nice if it is true.
    cheers
     Jerry
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on April 24, 2010, 02:12:45 PM
Quote from: brewerjerry on April 24, 2010, 08:56:13 AM

   Out of curiosity, which engines are in the profile
   

Jerry,

I can't quite remember - I think I was considering something like the Bristol Taurus or even the more powerful Hercules.

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: brewerjerry on April 24, 2010, 03:25:59 PM
Hi greg,
           Thanks for the reply, the profile looks good, might use it as a basis to bash an airfix kit into one of them.
      Did you ever try a drawing with merlinXX's on the whirlwind, as per westlands 1941 proposal ?
         Cheers
           Jerry
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on May 06, 2010, 08:58:34 AM
Now this looks interesting :

http://www.aviationmegastore.com/?shopid=&action=prodinfo&parent_id=&art=93142
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on May 06, 2010, 09:08:44 AM
You could actually do a Whirlwind with late model Mercurys, which had more power and less weight than the Peregrine. It'd have more drag and worse altitude performance, but it'd be good as a ground attack type or a dive-bomber (with airbrakes).
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 06, 2010, 03:54:52 PM
Twin Griffon power! 

'There's no subtitute for cubic inches' (quote some US drag racer in the 60s sometime)  ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on May 06, 2010, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on May 06, 2010, 03:54:52 PM
Twin Griffon power! 

'There's no subtitute for cubic inches' (quote some US drag racer in the 60s sometime)  ;D

Check out page 2 of this topic ;D.

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on May 06, 2010, 06:11:32 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on May 06, 2010, 03:54:52 PM
Twin Griffon power! 

'There's no subtitute for cubic inches' (quote some US drag racer in the 60s sometime)  ;D

Go back 15 posts Kit, you'll see what I've read recently.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 07, 2010, 03:01:47 PM
There you are then, great minds think alike. Even in WHiffWorld.  :lol:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: brewerjerry on May 08, 2010, 11:21:10 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on May 06, 2010, 08:58:34 AM
Now this looks interesting :

http://www.aviationmegastore.com/?shopid=&action=prodinfo&parent_id=&art=93142

Hi
   The nice postperson delivered one yesterday, it has the long nose and the handed propellers.
     It looks good, and by using two airfix kits and the one SH, it will turnout three whirlwinds, more if I can figure out how to 'clone' the long nose'
       Cheers
         Jerry
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on May 08, 2010, 01:31:10 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on May 07, 2010, 03:01:47 PM
There you are then, great minds think alike. Even in WHiffWorld.  :lol:

I tend to think of it as suffering from the same madness ;D

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on May 08, 2010, 06:57:28 PM
I suspect I will be burned at the stake for suggesting this.  Has anyone ever considered a single-engined Whirlwind?   :o
Title: I'm lighting the fire, as we speak!
Post by: sequoiaranger on May 08, 2010, 07:22:22 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on May 09, 2010, 09:38:09 AM


Quote from: rickshaw on May 08, 2010, 06:57:28 PM
I suspect I will be burned at the stake for suggesting this.  Has anyone ever considered a single-engined Whirlwind?   :o

Yes, Westland did!  There were a number of proposals using the basic layout of the Whirlwind, but larger to take more powerful engines.  They were:

A dive bomber with a turret & single Centaurus to B.20/40
A naval aircraft with a single Centaurus or Griffon (Griffon variant had a fuselage mounted tail) & four cannon to N.8/39 (eventually met by the Fairy Firefly after a change of specification)
A naval aircraft with Centaurus & a turret to N.9/39, very similar to N.8/39 proposal

We're all going to burn, but not for this at least! :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:
Title: Westland Waterspout?
Post by: sequoiaranger on May 09, 2010, 09:50:32 AM
>A naval aircraft with a single Centaurus or Griffon <

A whirlwind at sea (and keeping the "W" alliteration)--wouldn't that be a "Waterspout"?  :huh:

A whiff I had thought of a long time ago was a Hawker Tornado (LOVED those double sets of exhausts poking out of the nacelle) rigged for Naval use, and therefore called a "Waterspout". Won't happen by me (but look for a future Hawker Henley whiff to have the double exhausts!).
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: brewerjerry on May 09, 2010, 12:20:01 PM
Hi
   There was also a proposal for a normal peregrine engined whirlwind to be used for naval use, But it apparently fell flat at the admiralty.
   Presumably a tail hook and folding wings
       cheers
          Jerry
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on May 26, 2010, 03:14:37 AM
The airframe had a lot of Magnesium in it's construction.  Just what you need with lots of water around you!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on May 26, 2010, 04:18:59 AM
The problem with getting any conventional twin onto a British aircraft carrier was elevator size: most of the lifts were small, the ones on Ark Royal were very narrow, and the ones on some of the older ships were cross-shaped!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on May 26, 2010, 10:26:39 AM
Quote from: GTX on May 08, 2010, 01:31:10 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on May 07, 2010, 03:01:47 PM
There you are then, great minds think alike. Even in WHiffWorld.  :lol:

I tend to think of it as suffering from the same madness ;D

Regards,

Greg

saw this quote on a bumper sticker the other day

"some say I suffer from insanity. I dont!  I enjoy every moment of it! "
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on May 26, 2010, 11:57:31 AM
Quote from: The Wooksta! on May 26, 2010, 03:14:37 AM
The airframe had a lot of Magnesium in it's construction.  Just what you need with lots of water around you!

At the time, magnesium was a non-strategic material, which was why they went with it.  According to the book on Westland I have.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on May 26, 2010, 02:10:21 PM
Burns wonderfully on contact with sea water...  Just what you need in a naval aircraft!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on May 26, 2010, 03:38:07 PM
Not really, only in very hot water or steam, or in powder form.  Otherwise, as soon as cold water hits it, an oxide forms that prevents the Magnesium reacting further.  The main problem would be corrosion.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Gary on May 27, 2010, 03:21:47 AM
The thing that's always surprized me about the Whirlwind is the length of the wingspan so if you solve the metal problem, extent the span a bit further, crank the wings back similar to the Hellcat, add an observer style cockpit, perhaps fuel tanks and presto, a lovely high altitude observer spotter aircraft with enough speed to avoid much of the trouble and still having the elegance of the Whirlwind and none of the clunkyness of such a long run on sentence as this.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on May 27, 2010, 03:45:04 PM
Quote from: Gary on May 27, 2010, 03:21:47 AM
The thing that's always surprized me about the Whirlwind is the length of the wingspan so if you solve the metal problem, extent the span a bit further, crank the wings back similar to the Hellcat, add an observer style cockpit, perhaps fuel tanks and presto, a lovely high altitude observer spotter aircraft with enough speed to avoid much of the trouble and still having the elegance of the Whirlwind and none of the clunkyness of such a long run on sentence as this.

Well then, I guess you'd have an aluminum structure, two-seat navalized Welkin.  ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on May 28, 2010, 02:09:25 AM
I'd thought much the same thing!  Then again, the Navy got exactly that aircraft.  It was the Sea Hornet.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on May 28, 2010, 05:19:37 AM
or this!  which is to my mind a 'super' Whirlwind
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Caveman on May 30, 2010, 05:53:05 AM
From secret proejects
QuoteThe other alternative considered by Petter before production ceased was the use of two of Whittle's early jets.
So we have the vision of a 400mph plus Fighter for the Battle of Britain plus a 500mph Whirlwind for 1942.

so how about a get engined version? Nice big fat nacelles possibly from a meteor?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Caveman on May 30, 2010, 04:44:21 PM
In response to my own post. Here is basically my take on what the engine nacelles would look like for a RR Welland powered Whirlwind. Very rough and ready. It is basically the lower half of the Whirlwind nacelle mated to the upper half of a meteor nacelle.

thoughts?

I think I have left enough room for the engine and the landing gear but im not sure. Certainly the pilots lateral view is going to be obscured, but maybe the aircraft will be going so fast that anything not in the forward arc of view is going to be a blur anyway :P . Other concerning things to me is the jet pipe cutting through the wing. As I have drawn it I am imagining the Welland ending just about at the leading edge of the wing. Possibly leaving enough room for some tight ducting over the wing spar and then down out of the exhaust? 
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 30, 2010, 06:00:30 PM
Quote from: Caveman on May 30, 2010, 04:44:21 PM
Other concerning things to me is the jet pipe cutting through the wing. As I have drawn it I am imagining the Welland ending just about at the leading edge of the wing. Possibly leaving enough room for some tight ducting over the wing spar and then down out of the exhaust? 

Running the engine airflow through the wing is just fine, that's what they did with the Meteor and had no issues with it. It'd need big ring frames but that's pretty well understood engineering.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on May 30, 2010, 11:34:49 PM
Personally I think 'twould look better with underslung Metrovick F.2 axial-flow engines ala Meteor F.9/40 prototype DG204/G.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ipmsstockholm.org%2Fmagazine%2F2008%2F06%2Fimages%2Fdg206_g_1.jpg&hash=3a64197a97108fb6e814cd4356328dcd6bdff8f1)

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1955/1955%20-%200728.html
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Caveman on May 31, 2010, 01:24:18 AM
I agree that an axial engine would look better. I went with centrifugal engine because I think that it would have been available earlier. I also think that with contemporary materials tech. a centrifugal engine would give better maintenance performance too.
As for under wing slung, I was trying to keep the landing gear within the nacelles. I thought that with the extra volume required it would look more 'balanced' with part of the nacelle above and part below the wing.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on May 31, 2010, 07:58:48 AM
Here's a pic of TSRJoe's Jet Whirlwind.  It appears in one of the BSP books.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Caveman on May 31, 2010, 12:52:53 PM
ah brilliant :)

do you know where he has moved the landing gear to?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on May 31, 2010, 04:48:42 PM
You would have to ask Joe or read the book, I'm not sure how it would work
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on June 01, 2010, 05:11:04 AM
I'd think that the main legs would be in the nacelle inboard sides and it would still be a tail dragger configuration.  Pilot view would be reasonable apart from some big gaps where the engines are.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on October 04, 2010, 11:48:51 AM
Okay, I was just looking at ebay (just looking, please note...) and there was a Whirlwind next to a P-38.

Light bulb moment: what about a twin-boom Whirlwind?

If you want a justification for it, go back to the P-38. Let's say that Peregrine development went down the road of big turbo-superchargers rather than more cubes, and the nacelles got longer and longer until it made sense to put fins on the end of them and prune the fuselage.....
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on October 04, 2010, 02:17:52 PM
a twin boomer?

you mean like this?

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FTwinboomer.jpg&hash=8e62a631d6a8c777b2e90d14d52f0b87c685c393)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FPicture001.jpg&hash=90b83c3484eb8be2f2dd301a089aa706613e57dd)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FPicture002.jpg&hash=10ea8525b7a103dac76ef002d7b80da3833766fe)

Built about 5-6 years ago.  And yes Tophe loved it
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Pablo1965 on October 04, 2010, 05:34:11 PM
Good Idea, :thumbsup:





Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on October 04, 2010, 08:02:48 PM
Ah - thought it was too good not to have been noticed before - nice model Martin!  :thumbsup:

Good profile too Apo - nice one.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: MAD on October 06, 2010, 02:41:05 PM
Nice work gents! :cheers:

Hey GTX what about a torpedo-carrying Whirlwind (ala Beufighter type anti-shipping variant)? :thumbsup:

M.A.D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on October 06, 2010, 04:24:15 PM
Martin's already waaaaaay ahead of you.  IIRC he had the model on the display about 8 year ago...
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on October 07, 2010, 01:48:50 AM
Quote from: The Wooksta! on October 06, 2010, 04:24:15 PM
Martin's already waaaaaay ahead of you.  IIRC he had the model on the display about 8 year ago...

just a little
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FSeaWhirlwindTFIIIpic2.jpg&hash=7cac96aebf46f7e8d9d0be53a5159ded484c70e9)

My first whif Whirlwind. the SeaWhirlwind TFIII.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on October 07, 2010, 02:24:35 AM
If it's already in this thread I apologise but it might be useful to put that nice timeline of Whirlwind development you produced onto this thread Martin ?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on October 07, 2010, 04:13:27 AM
you mean this one?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on October 07, 2010, 08:26:51 AM
That's the one Martin  :thumbsup:

Always thought that was a nice bit of work
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 07, 2010, 11:19:42 AM
Methinks OGL has a 'thing' about Whirlwinds........  ;)

And quite right too, it's a fascinating aircraft of course.

Let's see a piccie of the PRII please.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on October 08, 2010, 12:58:31 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on October 07, 2010, 11:19:42 AM
Methinks OGL has a 'thing' about Whirlwinds........  ;)

And quite right too, it's a fascinating aircraft of course.

Let's see a piccie of the PRII please.

Guilty as Charged!  ;D :thumbsup:

heres the PR II for you Kit  ;)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FWhirlwindPRIIpic4.jpg&hash=f477216e23bc275002d4fa975d84fee36f38b05d)

and for good measure heres the others.

Whirlwind II
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FWhirlwindIIpic1.jpg&hash=3074b241e880706c4ba9832ab478b9c8f7449003)

NF I
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FWhirlwindNFIpic4.jpg&hash=a598c9bc1e678ed15878892a147a6fc4d0a6850b)

SeaWhirlwind NFIV
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FSeaWhirlwindIVpic2.jpg&hash=4693010b498025783170f5741c425423c9b719c8)

And finaly an export mk I
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FFinnishwhirlwind001.jpg&hash=e358cd644fb34b72c6bcba36dfc707bc99fb592d)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on October 08, 2010, 04:14:03 AM
Okay, how about a twin fuselage Whirlwind, in P-82 style?

Exploiting the constant chord wing section, fit a fuselage at each engine position with the engine raised to mate with it, then fit a gun/fuel pod in the centre made from a fuselage nose and an engine pod. Not sure what you do about the undercarriage - maybe fit a nosewheel in the pod and main wheels behind the cockpits in the fuselages?

Quick'n'dirty:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2Fprofiles%2Ftwin_whirlwind.gif&hash=431768567d359f90cf11589042b267fad9568eba)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on October 08, 2010, 06:58:25 AM
I like your thinking. Would need merlin's at least thou
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Pablo1965 on October 08, 2010, 07:29:18 AM
They are great, Whirlwindis a very special plane, I have doubt about the naval version, because it need a great distance to landing and take off.
In any way they are great :thumbsup: :cheers:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: ElectrikBlue on October 08, 2010, 08:59:12 AM
Quote from: Weaver on October 08, 2010, 04:14:03 AM
Okay, how about a twin fuselage Whirlwind, in P-82 style?

Exploiting the constant chord wing section, fit a fuselage at each engine position with the engine raised to mate with it, then fit a gun/fuel pod in the centre made from a fuselage nose and an engine pod. Not sure what you do about the undercarriage - maybe fit a nosewheel in the pod and main wheels behind the cockpits in the fuselages?

Quick'n'dirty:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fd165%2Fhws5mp%2FThe%2520Whiffery%2Fprofiles%2Ftwin_whirlwind.gif&hash=431768567d359f90cf11589042b267fad9568eba)
Works for me!  :thumbsup:
Gun/fuel pod and nosewheel should balance the extra weight of the second boom...  ;)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 08, 2010, 11:09:11 AM
OGL,

Magnificent work, specially the PRII of course.

I wish my Dad was still alive, I'd ask him if he saw any of them at St. Eval.  ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Pablo1965 on October 08, 2010, 01:23:55 PM
You are thiking in a twin version without central booms.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Tophe on November 13, 2010, 01:15:07 PM
Thanks Weaver, good creation! :thumbsup: (The model by Martin H was wonderful also, but I knew it)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: James on November 13, 2010, 01:28:59 PM
The Whirlwind is just one of those designs which you can do anything with. I wish it had had a more illustrious career. I love it.  :wub:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Stargazer2006 on November 14, 2010, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: Martin H on October 04, 2010, 02:17:52 PM
a twin boomer?

you mean like this?

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FTwinboomer.jpg&hash=8e62a631d6a8c777b2e90d14d52f0b87c685c393)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FPicture001.jpg&hash=90b83c3484eb8be2f2dd301a089aa706613e57dd)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2FPicture002.jpg&hash=10ea8525b7a103dac76ef002d7b80da3833766fe)

Built about 5-6 years ago.  And yes Tophe loved it

Wow. I absolutely LOVE that twin-boom Whirlwind!!  :wub: :wub: :wub:

Looks like it could have worked for real, too! Gosh I really love this forum.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on November 14, 2010, 10:26:49 AM
Quote from: apophenia on October 08, 2010, 08:39:51 PM
Quote from: Weaver on October 08, 2010, 04:14:03 AM
Okay, how about a twin fuselage Whirlwind, in P-82 style?

Exploiting the constant chord wing section, fit a fuselage at each engine position with the engine raised to mate with it, then fit a gun/fuel pod in the centre made from a fuselage nose and an engine pod. Not sure what you do about the undercarriage - maybe fit a nosewheel in the pod and main wheels behind the cockpits in the fuselages?

Excellent concept Weaver.  :thumbsup: That'd end up with more airframe commonality than with what I had in mind. (And, to that end, I'd leave her a taildragger.)

The problem with that is that the original main wheels retraced into the engine pods which were below the wings. There's nothing there now on mine, so you've have to do something different anyhow. You could probably use the original gear in a new rear-fuselage position (the leg-top to prop-axis distance would remain about the same) combined with a new nose leg.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Pablo1965 on November 14, 2010, 06:53:50 PM
Very Nice conversion :thumbsup: :bow:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Jschmus on January 07, 2011, 05:47:22 PM
Mr. G has chosen the Westland Whirlwind for this month's update of Air Vectors:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avwhirl.html

Scroll to the bottom and check out some of the speculative designs.  Some of 'em look awfully familiar.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Maverick on January 07, 2011, 05:55:18 PM
Interesting that the author has suggested they are of his own devising??

Regards,

Mav
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on January 07, 2011, 08:54:27 PM
Quote from: Maverick on January 07, 2011, 05:55:18 PM
Interesting that the author has suggested they are of his own devising??

Regards,

Mav

I don't think he actually does, Maverick.  Reread what he says.  He makes no claim to originating the concepts.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Stargazer2006 on January 08, 2011, 03:54:00 PM
Quote from: rickshaw on January 07, 2011, 08:54:27 PM
I don't think he actually does, Maverick.  Reread what he says.  He makes no claim to originating the concepts.

No he doesn't. But it surely wouldn't hurt if he linked Tophe's website or at least the What If thread he took it from...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on January 08, 2011, 05:31:41 PM
Quote from: Stargazer2006 on January 08, 2011, 03:54:00 PM
Quote from: rickshaw on January 07, 2011, 08:54:27 PM
I don't think he actually does, Maverick.  Reread what he says.  He makes no claim to originating the concepts.

No he doesn't. But it surely wouldn't hurt if he linked Tophe's website or at least the What If thread he took it from...  :rolleyes:

I agree.  He should at least have mentioned him by name.  Considering he goes to considerable pains to list all his other sources...
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Maverick on January 08, 2011, 08:57:21 PM
Rick,

Here's the direct quote from his site:

"I have to add as a footnote that modeler came up with a "what if" concept based on the Whirlwind, the "Singlewind", which was a single-engine Whirlwind with an asymmetric layout. I have to give the modeler points for imagination and ingenuity, though I do wonder if he was certifiably crazy. Of course, having embraced the craziness, I had to think: Well, if we can have a Singlewind, then why not a Whirlylightning? Or a Twin Whirlwind? Or a Wasp radial Whirlwind?"

I've underlined the specific mention that these designs are allegedly his.

Can't see the confusion there??

Regards,

Mav
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on January 08, 2011, 09:55:10 PM
Maverick, you have to be read that very carefully.  His language does not explicitly state, "I created" or "I thought these particular designs up".  His language is IMHO ambiguous though and it could be taken that he implies he was the originator of the designs.  It may well be that he thought of them independently.  Afterall, they are largely logical extensions of the basic Whirlwind design - which is why others also originated them.  It may sound like hair-splitting but its what academic plagarism cases are often won or lost on.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Maverick on January 08, 2011, 10:25:43 PM
Rick,

I'll have to agree to disagree.  If anyone asked me what the statement meant or implied, it would be pretty simple, to me.  Whether someone else took a different view of it is the joy of the English language and its inherent ambiguities.  Such ambiguities are the very essence of the lawyer's craft I guess, which is one reason that a lot of people hold them in such disregard.

Regards,

Mav
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Stargazer2006 on January 09, 2011, 09:42:13 AM
Quotehaving embraced the craziness, I had to think: Well, if we can have a Singlewind, then why not a Whirlylightning? Or a Twin Whirlwind? Or a Wasp radial Whirlwind?

Being an English language teacher and translator by profession (and though NOT a native English speaker), I have to say that I never saw any ambiguity there, though I can understand why reading it too quickly could give that impression.

So allow me to rephrase what the guy said in a less ambiguous way: "Once I accepted the fact that we were in a crazy whiffing world, I came to the following conclusion: if a Singlewind is possible, why not a Whirlylightning? Or a Twin Whirlwind? Or a Wasp radial Whirlwind?"
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Maverick on January 09, 2011, 03:06:30 PM
Stephane, I guess that the issue is that he doesn't say he's not the originator of the art, but equally so, he doesn't say he isn't which leads to the ambiguity in the first place.  Even with your very eloquently transcription, that ambiguity still exists.

Regards,

Mav
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on January 09, 2011, 05:24:10 PM
One has to be careful about interpretation.  Perhaps my reading is unduly legalistic but thats just my bent.  I tend to look for explicit statements before ascribing motivation to someone, otherwise it is very much a case of relying upon perceptions of intent.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on July 05, 2011, 12:14:22 AM
Two seat nightfighter perhaps?

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FWW20NF.jpg&hash=62e2bb6fa38cc2aa6ee0890bbdb92d15f4739bae)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Maverick on July 05, 2011, 12:54:18 AM
Needs an AI radar 'arrowhead' methinks.

Regards,

Mav
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: James on July 05, 2011, 02:05:29 AM
Always thought that the Whirlwind would make a great night fighter.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: grayman on July 05, 2011, 11:49:22 PM
Quote from: Maverick on July 05, 2011, 12:54:18 AM
Needs an AI radar 'arrowhead' methinks.

Just thinking on this...radar to the nose (thimble-nose radome?), cannon moved to a belly pod/hump to do away with muzzle flash, and slipper tanks on the wings...
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Maverick on July 06, 2011, 12:25:59 AM
Very similar in concept to the Mosquito NF.XV (the high altitude variant to take on the Ju-89P/R overflights).

Regards,

Mav
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on July 06, 2011, 12:43:06 PM
Quote from: Maverick on July 05, 2011, 12:54:18 AM
Needs an AI radar 'arrowhead' methinks.


Me thinks it is a development prototype...why else would such an obvious but me left off :rolleyes: ;)?

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on August 12, 2011, 12:50:27 PM
Recently posted over on SecretProjects - A Whirlwind with under-nacelle intakes:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2Findex-29.jpg&hash=688c86d3615dd17a88f52614f4137f0328a0e9e6)

Use your imagination and you can almost see Napier Sabres there ;D.

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on August 12, 2011, 02:07:15 PM
For those wanting to do the "tank buster" its been possible to do for a while now  ;D
There's the special hobby kit which is very nice but not cheap.

<blatent plug> :wacko:
And there is also a conversion for the Airfix kit as well, from yours truly that is less expensive.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2Fwhirlwind37005.jpg&hash=444963a8c88bcb44dedc321a2ca42a37fb3bc772)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2Fwhirlwind37003.jpg&hash=940a7947f48b1bf1e0ea59e251b6968cd3fbed80)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi2.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy22%2Fmartinhiggs%2Fwhirlwind37007.jpg&hash=fbc943caacf852ed22527d768464c13f65aaa066)
</blatent plug>

Yes I do have a thing for Whirlwinds
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: GTX on August 12, 2011, 02:10:06 PM
Ah, if you did it in 1/48 you might have a customer in me ;)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on August 12, 2011, 02:10:52 PM
Quote from: GTX on August 12, 2011, 02:10:06 PM
Ah, if you did it in 1/48 you might have a customer in me ;)

You master it, Ill clone it LOL
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on August 12, 2011, 02:21:39 PM
Quote from: GTX on August 12, 2011, 12:50:27 PM
Recently posted over on SecretProjects - A Whirlwind with under-nacelle intakes:

Use your imagination and you can almost see Napier Sabres there ;D.

Regards,

Greg

I've read an article in one of the Air-Britain mags I get, that a lot of comparison testing was done between the wing leading edge radiator installation on aircraft and the chin radiator set up (sometimes called a 'beard' ).  When they did the comparison on the Mosquito using a Lancaster power egg nacelle, they were amazed to find no performance difference at all and the Air Ministry wanted De Havilland to build the Mosquito this way to keep commonality and ease of production. De Havilland would not have anything to do with it though and the leading edge radiator installation continued,
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on August 12, 2011, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: GTX on August 12, 2011, 12:50:27 PM
Recently posted over on SecretProjects - A Whirlwind with under-nacelle intakes:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2Findex-29.jpg&hash=688c86d3615dd17a88f52614f4137f0328a0e9e6)

Use your imagination and you can almost see Napier Sabres there ;D.

Regards,

Greg

Not with that lightweight airframe, no.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on August 12, 2011, 03:04:51 PM
Quote from: The Wooksta! on August 12, 2011, 02:42:43 PM
Quote from: GTX on August 12, 2011, 12:50:27 PM
Recently posted over on SecretProjects - A Whirlwind with under-nacelle intakes:

Use your imagination and you can almost see Napier Sabres there ;D.

Regards,

Greg
Not with that lightweight airframe, no.

... ah, but that was why they secretly re-engined a Whirlwind with the ultra-secret 16-cylinder Napier Épée.  ;)
A little known fact is that the Épée design was the basis of the BRM H-16 Formula 1 engine of the mid-1960s.
Unfortunately the BRM folks so altered the design, that the end product was something of a drut.

;D ;D
Title: Whirlwind with Under-nacelle Intakes
Post by: sequoiaranger on August 12, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
What *WAS* that? Notice that the props turn opposite the Peregrine, so there is *SOMETHING* strange "under the bonnet".
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Green Dragon on August 12, 2011, 06:08:36 PM
The exhausts look like they're off a Hurricane.

Paul Harrison
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on August 12, 2011, 07:48:50 PM
I wonder, could they be Merlins under there?  Might explain the need for increased or changed radiators.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on August 12, 2011, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on August 12, 2011, 03:04:51 PM
A little known fact is that the Épée design was the basis of the BRM H-16 Formula 1 engine of the mid-1960s.
Unfortunately the BRM folks so altered the design, that the end product was something of a drut.

But it sounded WONDERFUL, and in the back of the Lotus 43 driven by Jim Clark it won the US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen in 1965! Classic Lotus have found an H16 and they're putting back into the only 43 left, I can hardly wait.  :lol:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on August 13, 2011, 01:06:22 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 12, 2011, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on August 12, 2011, 03:04:51 PM
A little known fact is that the Épée design was the basis of the BRM H-16 Formula 1 engine of the mid-1960s.
Unfortunately the BRM folks so altered the design, that the end product was something of a drut.

But it sounded WONDERFUL, and in the back of the Lotus 43 driven by Jim Clark it won the US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen in 1965! Classic Lotus have found an H16 and they're putting back into the only 43 left, I can hardly wait.  :lol:

Was that the race Jack Brabham came third in?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 13, 2011, 01:18:42 AM
Quote from: Green Dragon on August 12, 2011, 06:08:36 PM
The exhausts look like they're off a Hurricane.

Paul Harrison

And the cowlings look not dissimilar to scaled down Typhoon ones to me
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: andrewj on August 13, 2011, 03:45:10 AM
Quote from: GTX on August 12, 2011, 12:50:27 PM
Recently posted over on SecretProjects - A Whirlwind with under-nacelle intakes:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2Findex-29.jpg&hash=688c86d3615dd17a88f52614f4137f0328a0e9e6)

Use your imagination and you can almost see Napier Sabres there ;D.

Regards,

Greg

Interesting photo, really well faked, this is the original.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi719.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww193%2Fandrewj_615%2Fwhirlwind.jpg&hash=0b409476f9de6d7f79fbc57d74a55890efbd3227)
The picture has been reversed ,hence the reversed direction of the props and the chin radiators added,would make a very nice whiff though
Andrew



Title: Clever Fake
Post by: sequoiaranger on August 13, 2011, 08:25:43 AM
>Interesting photo, really well faked, this is the original.<

Isn't "really well faked" the essence of whiffery??  ;D

And, the perpetrator took the time to properly reverse the half-obscured serial number in the rear fuselage, too!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on August 13, 2011, 08:34:33 AM
and airbrush out the hanger on the left hand side of the original :)
Title: Re: Clever Fake
Post by: GTX on August 13, 2011, 12:47:26 PM
Quote from: sequoiaranger on August 13, 2011, 08:25:43 AM
>Interesting photo, really well faked, this is the original.<

Isn't "really well faked" the essence of whiffery??  ;D


Beat me to it. ;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on August 13, 2011, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: rickshaw on August 13, 2011, 01:06:22 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 12, 2011, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on August 12, 2011, 03:04:51 PM
A little known fact is that the Épée design was the basis of the BRM H-16 Formula 1 engine of the mid-1960s.
Unfortunately the BRM folks so altered the design, that the end product was something of a drut.

But it sounded WONDERFUL, and in the back of the Lotus 43 driven by Jim Clark it won the US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen in 1965! Classic Lotus have found an H16 and they're putting back into the only 43 left, I can hardly wait.  :lol:

Was that the race Jack Brabham came third in?

Oops! Typo there, sorry!

Jack Brabham did come third in the 1965 US GP, but Jim Clark won the 1966 US Grand Prix in the Lotus 43.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on August 13, 2011, 06:03:34 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 12, 2011, 11:37:15 PM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on August 12, 2011, 03:04:51 PM
A little known fact is that the Épée design was the basis of the BRM H-16 Formula 1 engine of the mid-1960s.
Unfortunately the BRM folks so altered the design, that the end product was something of a drut.

But it sounded WONDERFUL, and in the back of the Lotus 43 driven by Jim Clark it won the US Grand Prix at Watkins Glen in 1965! Classic Lotus have found an H16 and they're putting back into the only 43 left, I can hardly wait.  :lol:

Oooh, I'd love to hear that.  :wub: :cheers:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: tomo pauk on November 24, 2015, 07:33:43 AM
Hi,
Just wondered wheter there is a model of the Whirly with a radial engine of any type, plus wehther there is a model with Napier Dagger?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Gondor on November 24, 2015, 07:41:22 AM
Quote from: tomo pauk on November 24, 2015, 07:33:43 AM
Hi,
Just wondered wheter there is a model of the Whirly with a radial engine of any type, plus wehther there is a model with Napier Dagger?

You could always build a model like that as the real aircraft did not have those types of engine.

Gondor
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 06, 2018, 06:56:35 AM
OK thread revival, and no I've not been back to the beginning so apologies if my question has been answered.

Supposing, just supposing Westland offered the Whirlwind or a derivative of it to the Admiralty in the 1938/39 period, but the Admiralty wanted a radial engine version *. What radials could/would have been considered ?

* I can almost hear Petter's squeals of anguish now  ;)

And yes I do have an inkling for a navalised one.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on August 06, 2018, 07:07:17 AM
Bristol Taurus seems to have been the go to engine in that period.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on August 06, 2018, 07:21:15 AM
With a Sea Whirlwind Mk.II being powered by a Twin Wasp.  Problems with the Taurus led to it being replaced by the American engine in several British aircraft.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 06, 2018, 07:45:57 AM
Cheers lads  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: KJ_Lesnick on August 07, 2018, 03:17:34 PM
rickshaw

QuoteI wonder, could they be Merlins under there?  Might explain the need for increased or changed radiators.
The plane wasn't really compatible with them because of the center of gravity
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on August 07, 2018, 08:40:01 PM
Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on August 07, 2018, 03:17:34 PM
rickshaw

QuoteI wonder, could they be Merlins under there?  Might explain the need for increased or changed radiators.
The plane wasn't really compatible with them because of the center of gravity

CofG can be changed.  British designers have, in the past, been quite willing to add up to several hundred pounds of weight to move it, fore or aft as required.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on August 08, 2018, 01:29:25 AM
I've been perusing Secret Projects and it's been discovered recently that there really were plans to re-engine the Whirlwind with Merlins.  I'ts always been accepted (me included) that the Whirlwind was too tightly designed around the Peregrine, but it seems that it was simple logistics that prevented a Merlin powered version being built.  For every Whirlwind, you needed two engines instead of the single engine of a Spitfire or Hurricane and Merlins were in short supply early war.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5734.0.html
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on August 08, 2018, 01:53:08 AM
I may give it a bash as I've some two stage Merlins that are wrong for Mosquitos but may well look okay on something else...

I still like the radials idea, but I don't have many Aeroclub Taurus cowlings and probably not enough to do this.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 08, 2018, 06:18:22 AM
Quote from: Mossie on August 08, 2018, 01:29:25 AM
I've been perusing Secret Projects and it's been discovered recently that there really were plans to re-engine the Whirlwind with Merlins.  I'ts always been accepted (me included) that the Whirlwind was too tightly designed around the Peregrine, but it seems that it was simple logistics that prevented a Merlin powered version being built. 


That's interesting Mossie. I've always read the same thing plus Petter's intransigence. "Not over my dead body" sort of thing.

I've found I have two ex Frog Hornet wings in the large parts box, so I'm tempted to do a late Whirlwind PR in low level pink with my third Airfix kit.

However first I need to look for some Taurus engines and cowlings.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on August 08, 2018, 10:31:43 AM
Chris, I've got a pair of Twin Wasps from a denfunct Dakota if you want them, either for a later model or as stand instead for the Taurus, no one will know if you don't tell 'em. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on August 08, 2018, 10:43:51 AM
Quote from: Mossie on August 08, 2018, 10:31:43 AM

...... or as stand instead for the Taurus, no one will know if you don't tell 'em. :thumbsup:


As if we would............  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 09, 2018, 06:30:26 AM
Quote from: Mossie on August 08, 2018, 10:31:43 AM
Chris, I've got a pair of Twin Wasps from a denfunct Dakota if you want them, either for a later model or as stand instead for the Taurus, no one will know if you don't tell 'em. :thumbsup:

Thanks mate, but I've just had a rummage in the box of spare engine/cowling bits and I've got some twin row radials in there. They are obviously a pair, even I can work that out, so most likely Wasps given my build history. So may well go for a latter version unless I hide them under a cowling and use the early war high demarcation camouflage  ;)

Thanks Mossie  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on August 09, 2018, 10:49:14 AM
The slimmer cowlings of the Hornet Merlin 130/131 installation
would look plausible, the two aircraft had the same wingspan, the
Whirlwind being 3' 3" shorter in length.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on August 09, 2018, 03:05:28 PM
Aye, but that's if they're decent representations.  The Frog ones aren't.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on August 10, 2018, 03:16:27 AM
OT, have you ever put a Merlin 130 on Spitfire Lee?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Wooksta! on August 10, 2018, 03:52:59 AM
I don't think the cowling would look much different.  Besides which, RR got the engine so slim by removing all the ancilliaries and placing them elsewhere.  DH got away with that in the Hornet as they were designed around those engines and the ancilliaries could go in the wings.  I've a feeling you'd need considerable redesign to get them elsewhere in a Spitfire.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 10, 2018, 06:35:04 AM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on August 09, 2018, 10:49:14 AM
The slimmer cowlings of the Hornet Merlin 130/131 installation
would look plausible, the two aircraft had the same wingspan, the
Whirlwind being 3' 3" shorter in length.

Yup I actually tried the Hornet wings against the Whirlwind and was surprised at that. And no I'm not doing it they look a tad odd.

Quote from: The Wooksta! on August 09, 2018, 03:05:28 PM
Aye, but that's if they're decent representations.  The Frog ones aren't.

Very much so Lee, which is why perhaps I could just say that they are "Merlins" and not be that specific ?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on August 10, 2018, 08:49:23 AM
Why not, as it's doubtful that a Westland designed cowling assembly would
look exactly like one designed at De Havilland.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on October 08, 2018, 07:19:48 PM
According to BSP, Roy Fedden at Bristol was pushing for a radial-engined Whirlwind, but it doesn't say which engine.

If all you wanted was a supportable replacement for the Peregrine, rather than a radical increase in power, then you could fit Bristol Perseus engines. These put out 930hp compared to the Peregrine's 885hp and were 115lb lighter as well. You'd have lost a bit of speed to the increased drag, but another 230lb of armour/fuel/warload would have been useful, as would the increased damage tolerance of an air-cooled radial in the ground-attack role, which is where the Whirlwind ended up.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: rickshaw on October 08, 2018, 10:46:55 PM
I put Hercules on my Wirly-Wirly TF.III (http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,45676.0.html) build.  Appreciably heavier but a great deal more powerful.

QuoteSpecifications (Peregrine I)

Data from Lumsden [9]
General characteristics

    Type: 12-cylinder supercharged liquid-cooled 60-degree Vee aircraft piston engine
    Bore: 5 inches (127 mm)
    Stroke: 5.5 inches (140 mm)
    Displacement: 1,296 in3 (21.2 L)
    Length: 73.6 in (1,869 mm)
    Width: 27.1 in (688 mm)
    Height: 41.0 in (1,041 mm)
    Dry weight: 1,140 lb (517 kg)
[...]
Performance

    Power output: 885 hp (660 kW) at 3,000 rpm, +9 psi boost
    Specific power: 0.68 hp/in3 (31.1 kW/L)
    Compression ratio: 6:1
    Power-to-weight ratio: 0.77 lb/hp
[Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Peregrine#Specifications_(Peregrine_I))]

QuoteSpecifications (Hercules II)

Data from Lumsden[5]
General characteristics

    Type: 14-cylinder, two-row, supercharged, air-cooled radial engine
    Bore: 5.75 in (146 mm)
    Stroke: 6.5 in (165 mm)
    Displacement: 2,360 in³ (38.7 L)
    Length: 53.15 in (1,350 mm)
    Diameter: 55 in (1,397 mm)
    Dry weight: 1,929 lb (875 kg)
[...]
Performance

    Power output:
    1,272 hp (949 kW) at 2,800 rpm for takeoff
    1,356 hp (1,012 kW) at 2,750 rpm at 4,000 ft (1,220 m)
    Specific power: 0.57 hp/in³ (26.15 kW/l)
    Compression ratio: 7.0:1
    Specific fuel consumption: 0.43 lb/(hp•h) (261 g/(kW•h))
    Power-to-weight ratio: 0.7 hp/lb (1.16 kW/kg)
[Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Hercules#Specifications_(Hercules_II))]

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/640x480q90/921/32MCBn.jpg)


Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on October 10, 2018, 09:44:35 AM
Quote from: Weaver on October 08, 2018, 07:19:48 PM
According to BSP, Roy Fedden at Bristol was pushing for a radial-engined Whirlwind, but it doesn't say which engine.

If all you wanted was a supportable replacement for the Peregrine, rather than a radical increase in power, then you could fit Bristol Perseus engines. These put out 930hp compared to the Peregrine's 885hp and were 115lb lighter as well. You'd have lost a bit of speed to the increased drag, but another 230lb of armour/fuel/warload would have been useful, as would the increased damage tolerance of an air-cooled radial in the ground-attack role, which is where the Whirlwind ended up.

The Gloster F.9/37 prototype L7779 was fitted with 1,050 hp Taurus T-S(a) engines and had a top
speed of 360mph, L8002 had 885hp Pergrines and was 30mph slower.
So chances are that a similar installation on the Whirlwind would have had a positive effect.

Recently I saw parts of a paper by Fedden that included comparison drawings of a Bristol radial
installation, I forget which engine, and a Napier Dagger installation, the radial had a lower
surface area and lower drag. I'll try to remember where I saw it.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Martin H on October 10, 2018, 02:16:27 PM
As many of the "old hands" on here are well aware, I have a "thing" for the Whirlwind..................even more so when whiffing is involved.

In mark order.
Finnish export Mk I
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3874/fnVwEL.jpg)

The NF mk I
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5482/BrQvkb.jpg)

The Mk II (spot the other westland whiff in the back ground)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4939/LCIrRw.jpg)

The PR II
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3804/j0XbWj.jpg)

The Sea Whirlwind TF III (the one that started this Whirlwind obsession)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6127/k139ux.jpg)

The Sea Whirlwind NF IV
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1005/ZnXqrS.jpg)

And the twin boomer for a long past Tophe GB..........
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9758/qAacT3.jpg)

As you may be able to tell these are all fairly low rez pics. Giving an idea how long ago these builds were made.
These were posted on this thread about 8 years ago, but the links are long dead, since I told Photobucket to go forth and........................

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: perttime on October 10, 2018, 11:58:04 PM
Quote from: Martin H on October 10, 2018, 02:16:27 PM
As many of the "old hands" on here are well aware, I have a "thing" for the Whirlwind..................even more so when whiffing is involved.

In mark order....
Lovely  :thumbsup:
I particularly like the Finnish one and the NF.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: zenrat on October 11, 2018, 03:05:32 AM
I think the TFIII is my fav.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on October 11, 2018, 06:08:46 AM
Quote from: zenrat on October 11, 2018, 03:05:32 AM
I think the TFIII is my fav.

Certainly mine  :thumbsup:

Thanks for posting those again Martin
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 11, 2018, 07:30:19 AM
I've only seen a few of them at shows, it's time they all appeared en masse really.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on October 12, 2018, 06:02:49 AM
Maybe at next year's Huddersfield (Halifax ?) show we could have a Westland corner ?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 12, 2018, 06:43:29 AM
How about one with Napier Daggers? I've got a couple of resin Daggers to hand with no planned home so far.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on October 12, 2018, 06:58:32 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on October 12, 2018, 06:43:29 AM
How about one with Napier Daggers? I've got a couple of resin Daggers to hand with no planned home so far.

I think that was even tested Kit, I'm sure I've seen a photo of a set-up like that.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on August 10, 2020, 04:04:05 PM
Possibly the last surviving Whirlwind?

This airframe was used as a hack by Westlands post-war, eventually being scrapped in 1950. The airframe was buried, but was dug up again in 1980 since it was causing ground contamination issues. The engines were used in a helicopter blade test rig for a while.

Pics and info from Trev Clarke here: https://twitter.com/TrevClark1958/status/1292792817178144768?s=20

Profile by Andy Godfrey (Teasel Studio) here: https://twitter.com/teaselstudio1/status/1292870459843842051?s=20

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfC53JFXYAEC57s?format=jpg&name=large)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfC56StXsAAILio?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EfEyz0EX0AEGvmP?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on August 11, 2020, 03:47:07 AM
:( They should have kept it.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 11, 2020, 06:08:00 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 11, 2020, 03:47:07 AM
:( They should have kept it.

They probably would have nowadays Kit.

One of my all time favourite aircraft. I really must tackle one of the SH ones in the stash to see what they build like.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on August 13, 2020, 08:52:37 PM
The profile is nice, but he makes a mistake in that the rear fuselage and tail structure were
not exactly the same shade of metallic grey as the fwd fuselage and wing. The difference is
visible in photos and is not a result of lighting etc.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitbasher on August 14, 2020, 02:19:12 AM
I really enjoyed slapping together the 2nd gen Airfix Whirlwind many years ago.  This makes me want to build another.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Doug K on August 14, 2020, 02:26:01 AM
I merlinised one which is posted elsewhere, I'm tempted to do some more too
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: The Rat on August 14, 2020, 04:32:35 AM
Quote from: Doug K on August 14, 2020, 02:26:01 AM
I merlinised one which is posted elsewhere, I'm tempted to do some more too

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Thought of by everyone, built by very few. So dig those pictures out!
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on August 14, 2020, 04:39:46 AM
A Griffonised Whirlwind could be even better, albeit a tad nose heavy.....................  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: zenrat on August 14, 2020, 05:13:24 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 14, 2020, 04:39:46 AM
A Griffonised Whirlwind could be even better, albeit a tad nose heavy.....................  ;D ;)

Forward swept wings would help in that department.

Or a four gun turret.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on August 14, 2020, 06:29:48 AM
Yup I've built a Merlin engine'd one which is on here somewhere.

Martin H has built a whole family of them  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Doug K on August 14, 2020, 10:29:08 AM
Quote from: The Rat on August 14, 2020, 04:32:35 AM
Quote from: Doug K on August 14, 2020, 02:26:01 AM
I merlinised one which is posted elsewhere, I'm tempted to do some more too

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Thought of by everyone, built by very few. So dig those pictures out!

Build thread here  https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=45943.msg827669#msg827669 (https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=45943.msg827669#msg827669)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: kitnut617 on August 14, 2020, 11:14:16 AM
I think I've posted this before (only I can't find it), but Westland really had Merlin engined concept planned. One of the articles in an old Air-Britain AeroMilitaria issue, was about Welkins, the article says before the aircraft got called a Welkin, it was referred to as the Merlin Engine Whirlwind ---- but I think this would make a more adequate Griffon engine Whirlwind.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Stan in YUL on September 19, 2020, 07:17:55 AM
Regrettably late to the discussion but where there any serious attempts to address the high landing speed issue without a radical wing redesign.  If it were possible, and the armament configured to 2 x 20mm + 4 x .303 This could have been an interesting alternative to the early Sea Hurricanes and Seafires.  Certainly from a landing gear point of view, a navalized Whirlwind would have been way better than any Seafire .
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on September 20, 2020, 06:27:45 AM
Quote from: Stan in YUL on September 19, 2020, 07:17:55 AM
  If it were possible, and the armament configured to 2 x 20mm + 4 x .303 This could have been an interesting alternative to the early Sea Hurricanes and Seafires.  Certainly from a landing gear point of view, a navalized Whirlwind would have been way better than any Seafire .

Interesting. A whirlwind was tested with a single 37mm canon, so they were thinking of alternatives to the 20mm's.

Out of interest where would you put the 0.303" ? In the nose or wing mounted ?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Old Wombat on September 20, 2020, 11:33:36 PM
Why weaken the armament with .303s when you have a perfectly good 4 x 20mm arrangement in the nose? :o

The 37mm, I think, was trialed for either train-busting or anti-shipping op's.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on September 21, 2020, 06:27:56 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 20, 2020, 11:33:36 PM
Why weaken the armament with .303s when you have a perfectly good 4 x 20mm arrangement in the nose? :o


Assuming they could be fired separately the navy might have looked at the .303"s as being useful when strafing the decks of ships ? Their Lordship's at the Admiralty did have their own way of thinking  :angel:

Quote from: Old Wombat on September 20, 2020, 11:33:36 PM

The 37mm, I think, was trialed for either train-busting or anti-shipping op's.

Interesting. I've not read what it was trialled for, just knew it had been. Automatically assumed it was for tank busting, but train busting in particular sounds a good idea. Wonder if it would have had a .303" for sighting purposes in the same way the Hurricanes with a pair of 40.mm's did ?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on September 21, 2020, 01:41:59 PM
Neither the proposed 37mm or 40mm gun were ever fitted, the photo that has been often identified
as a 'big gun' nose configuration looks like a test for the lengthened, revised nose of the Mk.II using
belt-fed rather than drum fed 20mm Hispanos. The guns were mounted abreast rather than in the
quad layout of the Mk.I.

Note the identical bulges on the 4-gun mockup photo, and the single-gun photo. The bulges fwd. of the
windscreen were to cover the edges of the 20mm ammo tanks that were forward of the new fuel tank
that was to be added as part of the Mk.II mods.

The most likely explanation for the misidentification is that people have conflated a written proposal for
a heavy gun installation with the photo of the revised nose tests. There was no reason for a heavy gun nose
to look like the new 20mm nose.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50369020116_46974ce559_o.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50369020091_c5bb5d5190_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Leading Observer on September 21, 2020, 01:58:59 PM
Very interesting photos. For the Bikers amongst us, can any one identify the bike in the background?
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: comrade harps on September 21, 2020, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 14, 2020, 04:39:46 AM
A Griffonised Whirlwind could be even better, albeit a tad nose heavy.....................  ;D ;)

I'm sure that can be corrected with a fuselage stretch ;)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: perttime on September 21, 2020, 08:19:39 PM
Quote from: comrade harps on September 21, 2020, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 14, 2020, 04:39:46 AM
A Griffonised Whirlwind could be even better, albeit a tad nose heavy.....................  ;D ;)

I'm sure that can be corrected with a fuselage stretch ;)
Or by using aluminium, instead of magnesium, in the tail.

Some late Spitfires just had weight added in the tail, to balance them.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on September 21, 2020, 10:20:57 PM
Quote from: Leading Observer on September 21, 2020, 01:58:59 PM
Very interesting photos. For the Bikers amongst us, can any one identify the bike in the background?

Looks like it might be an Ariel.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Ariel_350_cc_Red_Hunter_1938.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on September 21, 2020, 10:28:02 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on August 14, 2020, 04:39:46 AM
A Griffonised Whirlwind could be even better, albeit a tad nose heavy.....................  ;D ;)

Not too bad if it was only a single Griffon in the nose.  :wacko:

A single Griffon is actually more powerful than two Peregrines.
;D
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: zenrat on September 22, 2020, 04:15:41 AM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on September 21, 2020, 10:20:57 PM
Quote from: Leading Observer on September 21, 2020, 01:58:59 PM
Very interesting photos. For the Bikers amongst us, can any one identify the bike in the background?

Looks like it might be an Ariel.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Ariel_350_cc_Red_Hunter_1938.jpg)

I think it might be an AJS.  It appears to have the magneto mounted in front of the cylinder barrel (at least that is how i interpret the shiny thing visible in the loop of the exhaust downpipe).
(https://www.cyclechaos.com/images/0/00/Ajs-silver-streak-500-1939-1939-3.jpg)
Mind you, pre war single cylinder motorbikes all looked very similar.

Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on September 22, 2020, 06:35:44 AM
Interesting re the 20mm sideways mounting Jon, and if I'd bothered to read my Putnam's properly it would have told me that  :banghead:. In the same book there's also a picture of a Mk I with an experiments nose mounted pitot and from a distance that might look like a canon....with my eyesight anyway. :-X


Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on September 21, 2020, 01:41:59 PM

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50369020091_c5bb5d5190_o.jpg)

Has there ever been an uglier head on view of an aeroplane ? Even some of the French 1930's "Gothic" designs would be pushed to beat it.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on September 22, 2020, 01:43:49 PM
Looks like a machine gun armed spider.

It's up there, but I can think of a few.  The Martin B-10 comes to mind in the pre-approval war period.  There's a lot of modern special ops aircraft with all sorts of pimples and lumps that look awful head on.  The Canberra T.17 comes to mind too.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 22, 2020, 02:15:14 PM
Plus the Viet Nam era B-57G.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7634/tQyESS.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on September 22, 2020, 02:30:05 PM
Fugly. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on September 22, 2020, 02:40:05 PM
I'm thinking that the bike is a BSA Empire Star:

(https://uploads.carandclassic.co.uk/uploads/cars/bsa/11365015.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Old Wombat on September 23, 2020, 12:24:53 AM
I'm going with a 1935-ish BSA Blue Star (although Empire Star is a fair bet, too):

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Beeza_BSA_1935_Blue_Star_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: NARSES2 on September 23, 2020, 12:48:59 AM
Quote from: Mossie on September 22, 2020, 01:43:49 PM

It's up there, but I can think of a few.  The Martin B-10 comes to mind in the pre-approval war period. 

Don't you go insulting one of my favourite aircraft  ;D I've always liked the B-10 and am eagerly waiting my Azure/Fromm one, but I know what you mean.  ;)
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on September 23, 2020, 02:33:35 AM
Eye of the beholder and all that, I'm sure it has a lovely personality! :angel:
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on September 23, 2020, 06:15:52 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 23, 2020, 12:24:53 AM
I'm going with a 1935-ish BSA Blue Star (although Empire Star is a fair bet, too):

Fair suggestion. I couldn't say which model of Empire/Blue Star it was. It looks like it has a single cast pushrod tube, but then other things don't line up so well. You can't really judge it by accessories either, since seats, pillion pads, luggage racks etc, were all routinely replaced/customised.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: zenrat on September 24, 2020, 04:58:50 AM
Unless someone has access to TV procedural cop show quality (read "magic") photo enhancement software < puts hand on hip - takes off sunglasses - makes quip - puts sunglasses back on > then we'll never know.

That Blue Star is a gorgeous looking little bike.  Nice and compact, its proportions are just right.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Mossie on September 25, 2020, 02:56:00 AM
I know nowt about bikes, but I'm going to plump for Blue Star.  The signs for me are the angle of the frame between the tank and rear mudguard and the slight upward angle of the exhaust.  Other than that I find them very difficult to tell apart, even with the big images.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Stan in YUL on October 06, 2020, 08:09:57 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 20, 2020, 11:33:36 PM
Why weaken the armament with .303s when you have a perfectly good 4 x 20mm arrangement in the nose? :o

The 37mm, I think, was trialed for either train-busting or anti-shipping op's.

One of the drawbacks to the 4 x 20mm was the short capacity ammo drums ( 60 rounds I think).  Replacing 2 of the 20s with 303s gives you plenty of room for a larger capacity belt feed system for the remaining 20s and a decent capacity for the 303s.  Faster firing, certainly still a match for any likely opponent, and not really lighter armed then the early sea hurricanes.  It's also known that some of those 4 x 20mm sea hurricanes removed two weapons from time to time to suit operational needs.  The real issue for a Sea Whirlwind would always have been the landing speed (90 knt approx )
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on October 06, 2020, 12:53:42 PM
The limited capacity of the drums was one of the main drivers of the revised nose configuration.
Adding ammo tanks and a feed system wasn't possible with the 'quad' arrangement, thus the
flattened four abreast layout.
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: Weaver on September 16, 2022, 02:09:44 PM
Good video on the Whirlwind which links to a site with new research about the aircraft. It seems that the problems with it may not have been as much to do with the Peregrine engine as with the choice of propellors and radiators:


This is the website mentioned: https://www.dingeraviation.net/westland/whirlwind.html
Title: Re: Westland Whirlwind
Post by: jcf on September 18, 2022, 08:48:44 AM
Petter spitting the dummy when his decisions were questioned wasn't helpful.