Whats the story? US drops aid to Israel to try and move peace process along/try to get some popularity in the Arab world. The French don't care who they sell arms to as long as they get a sale, so Israel goes back to its pre-US arms supplier. Is the Rafale a replacement for the F-16?
Yup, the Israeli scheme sounds good to me.......
:p Come on chaps. The Israeli Rafale would sound great, cause the colour scheme is so good. But what about other schemes? Suggestions?
Here's a few, although I haven't thought of scenarios to go with the schemes (these can always come later, made to "fit")
How about Royal Navy....Sky/grey or white /grey?
USN in gull grey/white/pretty markings?
South Korean low-viz greys
South Vietnamese low-viz greys/blues
Canadian Navy grey/dark grey
Argentinian Navy low-viz greys
portuguese Tiger Squadron
There's a lot of super schemes out there for a lovely looking aircraft.....let's have some imagination for finishing it?
Should I do an Imperial Roman Navy one?
How about a USN Adversary scheme?
I just got my two seater Rafale today and was thinking that it would look pretty cool in Israeli markings with a sort of F-16 style camo. What do you guys think. Any other ideas. I think I once saw a Rafale M in US navy markings in a Fine scale modeler anyone remember that one?
There was a well finished Rafale in multi-sand French colours at the British Nats last year that looked good. At least 4 shades on the upper-surfaces. I was kicking myself that I got rid of my Revell kit. I must get another.
Israeli colours a la F-16 would look super though, especially with a few "special" Israeli mods. :l
I need your help with my 1/72 Rafale B.
Few month ago, a friend gives me few part of an Italeri Rafale: just the fuselage and the wings. I already scratchbuild the nose, the landing gear, the "canards" (don't know the english word for that) etc...
Now I'm building the weapons pylons.
But this plane is quite different from the real Rafale because of my modifications. So I want to do a what if with it, but I have not a lot of idea. Perhaps a new Rafale's Block??
I thought it could be cool to put some japanese weapons (I buy the JASDF Aircraft Weapons 1 kit from Hasegawa) or to give it australians mark.
I want something realistic and who can happened around the years 2015-2020, but it is my first what if kit, so...
I thank you for your help and I will find a way to give you some pictures of my work.
PS: English is not my native language, escuse me for the mistake I can do
Welcome to WHIF
As far as your project goes, you have a number of possibilities to choose from for your Rafale. If you are now in the process of building pylons for your Rafale, I might recommend a couple of fuel tanks since jet engines are very thirsty and the more fuel you have available also equals greater distances that your Rafale can travel.
Have you decided what the mission of the Rafale will be? Keep in mind that it can carry many types of weapons, but with more weapons you will have less range so a good mix for your weapons and fuel tanks is recommended. For the air to air part of the mix, how about a pair of Magic for the wing tip launchers, a pair of MICA for the under fuselage stations.
In addition to the two or three fuel tanks you will mount on the Rafale, you will have another two stations to fill. These two stations could be loaded with bombs, missiles or additional air to air missiles. The last two stations would be the location for your bombs, rockets, anti-ship missiles, air to ground missiles, or other precision guided weapons.
WElcome to the club PDS, ur english is spot-on!
Might I suggest a set of Conformal Tanks? Dassault has been showing various models w/ them fitted.
Maybe a F-14 style chin pod under the nose? Or a Harrier GR.7 IR housing forward of the windscreen?
dang, I think I'll find some building time!
Japanese markings sound brilliant.
Your English is great, much better than some here already! Try understanding "Geordie"!!
Thanks you all for the welcomes and your help!!
You guys have some good ideas!!
I enjoy what if, and I think I will transform my never-finiched Gripen and Eurofighter too.
So for the moment I build a lot of weapons pylons.
I already build a Brimstone triple-launcher and a pod (don't really know what it is, I just transform a 1/48 Magic II pylons into a 1/72 pod: it looks great, maybe like a MAD).
One of the solution I think is a Rafale S (or another letter...) whith japanese air-to-see weapons.
-4 AAM-3 (japanese version of the Sidewinder)
-2 AAM-4 (AMRAAM-likes missiles, under-fuselage)
-2 ASM-2 anti-shipping (or Exocet missiles)
-3 tanks 2000 l (or maybe just 1 and 2 other anti-ship missiles)
-one pod for submarine detection.
But I don't know the scheme.
At the begining, I think it could be a french fighter who was send to Japan with an international coalition to protect those island for example against a corean threat. In this case, the new Rafale S will be able to carry internationals weapons (like japanese, israelis, US, etc...) so it could fight without waiting for the cargo who bring its the french weapons it needs
(it's a French practice to NEVER use the same standards the other countriy use. With this Rafale, I take my revenge against my country bad maners ;) :P )
But when I began my search about what-if Rafale, a friend tells me that it will be possible that japanese buy Rafale in the future to take the place of their old F-15J, to complete their F-2.
I have no Japanese decals, but it's a good idea becouse Japanese Agressor Scheme are really really beautiful !!!
And to finish, I found this (http://www.gekkographics.com.au/images/Aussie%20Rafale%20model/Aussie%20Rafale%20model.htm) and I fall in love with it !!!
So I admit I'm a little in doubt.
But you're right, I have the time to chose.
But I need you for other good ideas!! ;)
EDIT: I forgot!! I thought about the Conformal tanks, but I found no kit about it?? Does it exist ??
It's close to midnight here, so goodnight ;)
Quote...the "canards" (don't know the english word for that) etc...
The English word for 'canards' is 'canards'. ^_^ We probably pronounce it differently though.
Welcome to the board, and your English is better than my, um, anything really. B)
Modified Rafale....interesting idea to ponder.
Maybe change the inlets to 'Mirage' type with a conic centrebodies?
Taliplanes to make it a three surface design (like some of the later Sukhoi Flankers).
Give it a 'cranked arrow' wing, thats where the outer section of the wing has a different leading edge angle to the inner, ususualy a lower angle.
Split the tailfin into two like a F18?
Stretch the fusilage maybe ahead of the wing taking the canards forward perhaps?
35414 intermediate blue
35109 dark blue
These are the colours of the ''new blue'' aggressor aircraft and would beautifully contrast with the red Japanese insignia. The Gekko decals Rafale has a pretty decent pattern IMHO.
Welcome Mon ami!
In so far as your "problems" as you can see there are really no acceptable problems. Japanese wepon sets are no problem so long as an appropriate back story is created.
And lets not forget that "back in 2012 when the Northern most island of Japan Hokkaido seperated constitutionally due to the constant bickering in the Japanese Parliment over the stationing of nuke weapons in Japan after that short war in was was once known as North Korea. The people of Hokkaido refused and wouldn't ratify the weapons proliferation agreement impposed upon Japan. They simply refused to have the weapons. Infact their refusal became so total that it spilled into a greater international conflict. Their were accusations of too much American involvement in the development of Japan's indiginous military program. Putting nukes on Japan was seen as the final straw. So with the backing of the french government Hokkaido set about creating it's own congress and constitionually seperating from the rest of the 'Americanized" Japan. France provided this fledgling country many conventional weapons for use in their defense. The Rising SUn flag once again appeared on aircraft flying out of airbases on Hokkaido. Several industrial plants that produced guided weapons were located there and made weapons for the French built aircraft. In return for their help, France received prefered trade deals for everything from cars to noodles.
In 2025, Hokkaido came back to the fold once again and France's support was not forgotten. While the US didn't appreciate the move, they had steadfastly had supported the remaining Japanese islands and their desire to not go to war with their countryman. In 2024 the US removed all nuclear weapons from Japan, prompting the reunification. A symbol of controlled might, or as one man said, 'the hand tightly gripped the sheathed sword' showed remarkabel resolve and in 2028, France and the US signed a partnership treaty for the manned mission to Mars. President Pierre LaFontain said in a speach during the signing, 'If we can find a way to be so opposed yet not come to blows, we can acheive true greatness when unified.' "
Welcome PolluxDeltaSeven (sounds like a Science Fiction virus?).
You just picked up a whole planeload of new friends, Pollux!!! :) :) :)
Thanks for pics of that Rafale-----now I'm hooked too!
One suggestion for your Rafale What If: T-Tail!!! (sorry, I have a T-Tail fascination and could not resist).
John Howling Mouse ("JHM" which you must not confuse with "JMN" as we call the Joyless Modeling Nazi's who literally count rivets and never actually build anything, anyhow).
Wellcome aboard Pollux (got to be careful how you say that). My only suggestion for your Rafale would be to do it as a Japanese maritime strike bird in multi tone blues ?
Welcome aboard PDS.
just this little welcome note as there's nothing to say about your Rafalle that these guys haven't sugested already.
That link you've provided shows a real mean Rafale. Never seen one as cool looking as that one.
Wahooo!!! Such respons!!! ;)
I enjoy all your proposition, and maybe I could try one of them. But I have to admit I don't think I'm able to modified the real plane's structure, like the wings: it's my first What-if work and I think I'll do a simple model, for the moment.
But the conic intakes like a "Miarge" is a good idea (it was one of the first configuration when Dassault studied this plane)
QuoteWelcome aboard buddy.
Where ya from?
Thanks!! I'm an Italian-French guy from Lyon, in France... I admit it's not the perfect place to what-if model but I learn a lot by reading this forum and ARC.
@ If My Wife Finds Out ... (yeah!!):
Why not? A story like I love. It remind me Michael DiMercurio novels... Great idea.
I'm working on a story to, something perhaps more ... "global". Because I have a Typhoon, a Gripen, a F-35 and a F-22 (if I got time enough) to "whatifed", and I think it could be cool to have one in japanese scheme, one in desert one, an other with arctic scheme etc...
Maybe a great story for an european air force? or a lot of little story for each plane.
Don't know for the moment.
QuoteWelcome PolluxDeltaSeven (sounds like a Science Fiction virus?).
Delta Seven is the name of Obi Wan Kennoby's space fighter in Episode II, so it is really a sci fi name.
And Pollux is the name of a star I saw this summer and the name of a famous old cartoon dog in France (does it mean I looks like a dog? hum hum??)
And thanks you all !!! I don't figure it was so friendly to be here.
I have an idea for my Rafale configuration, NARSES2 will be happy ;)
I post it in few minutes
Hey what do You think of a forward-swept wing version ala S-37 ... if You compare the fuselage of both they look quite similar - even if the Rafale loks much more advanced, smoother, stealthier, sexier .... :wub: :lol: ... but as there were some reports of a joint Russian-French cooperation in fifth generation fighter developments a Rafalesky - as a smaller and improved serial version of the S-37-concept is quite an idea woth to think about !!
Cherrs, Deino :D
So, that's the idea I have this morning while I was drawin... working!!
The Rafale has a total of 14 weapons stations, even if 2 of them are often join in only one (this one where a tank is under the fuselage: 2 missiles could stand on the place of tis only tank).
Moreover, with is Conformal Fuel Tanks and some extern tanks, he is the most fuel capable new generation fighter in the west (exept the F-22, but this one is very to expensive to export).
So I imagine a Rafale with the mission of an Su-34: maritime stike and patrol plane.
The config, with japanese weapons, is, from the right to the left:
- AAM-3 air-to-air Fox 2 (?) missile (looks like AIM-9)
- AAM-4 air-to-air Fox 3 missile (looks like AMRAAM)
- ASM-2 anti-ship missile
- 2000L tank
-Mk-46/54 Torpedo (yeeess!!!! Torpedo!!)
(under the left air-intake, a MAD pod to detect submarines underwater)
-ASM-2 (if I put here a tank, the pod is not visible. And I love assymetrical config)
What do you think about it?
For a french config, I take Mica and Magic II instead of the AAM-3/4 and Exocet instead of the ASM-2.
I enjoy the idea of torpedoes on the under-fuselage lateral station. I thought of using torpedoes under Rafale few week ago, but not under those stations.
For the scheme, I will enjoy a scheme like that:
I forgot to tell that I have an other Rafale, a M version from Heller (grrrrrrrr!!) but I don't like it. I want one of the two in desert camo. I think it will be the Rafale M one, becouse I don't think sand-desert scheme and anti-ship config could be together.
QuoteHey what do You think of a forward-swept wing version ala S-37 ... if You compare the fuselage of both they look quite similar - even if the Rafale loks much more advanced, smoother, stealthier, sexier .... :wub: :lol: ... but as there were some reports of a joint Russian-French cooperation in fifth generation fighter developments a Rafalesky - as a smaller and improved serial version of the S-37-concept is quite an idea woth to think about !!
Cherrs, Deino :D
When I saw for the first time the S-37 (or Su-47), I love it!! I thought is wing is a great idea. Like the X-29.
But a friend tell me recently that there are more inconvenient with a forward-swept wing that advantages. The plane is less stable at sound speed that a classic winged plane and the turn rate is not better at all (the X-29, who is a F-20 with a new wing, was less agile that the F-20, the F-16 and even the F-5).
But we are in what if, after all.
But I really don't think I'm capable of such a transformation. For that, you have to be a great scratch-builder and I'm not, not for the moment.
And I have to admit that I don't want to "butcher" my nation's best plane (and one of the more beautiful fighter I ever see :wub: ). (Don't know if the expression "to butcher" exist in english)
But if you want, I have a Mirage F1 that I can transform, modified, deform, destroy, burn and vaporise... With forward-swept wing or not!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Apologize to the Mirage F1 lovers... it's not my case at all!!! (sshhh!!! :P )
QuoteHey what do You think of a forward-swept wing version ala S-37 ... if You compare the fuselage of both they look quite similar - even if the Rafale loks much more advanced, smoother, stealthier, sexier .... :wub: :lol: ...
You bite your tounge you heritic.....or I'll have the SPANISH INQUISITION down on you... :P :P :P :P :P
Personally, I think the S37 is an exteremely sexy bird.
I'd like to join the chorus and say welcome aboard Pollux, you are in good company.
I love your ideas for the Rafale. Especially with the Japanese slant. I've got my own ideas for the Rafale as well, but they arwe still in the embryonic stages at the moment.
My turn to pipe in.
Welcome aboard! As always, please mind the empty beer cans and pork pies.......
(all to be explained in due course I'm sure!) :P ;)
I have a RAAF Rafale going myself. 1/48 Revell M kit. Saw the Gekko decals and just had to do one. :wub: :wub:
And LOVE the Japanese idea. Wish I came up with that one!
Like the idea -- pics soon please!
For the moment I have my exam to pass, so my work table is full of books so... no modelism for the moment...
But last week I win a digital camera for my birthday. I haven't got the time to watch the notice but when I do that, I'll take some pictures, I promis ;)
QuoteSaw the Gekko decals and just had to do one. wub.gif wub.gif
And so do I !!!!
I admit, a Rafale with japanese weapons tempt me. But I have no japanese decals (australians, french, germans, nederlands one, yes, but no japanese).
I have to think about the camo and the land marks, but it will be for later.
Thanks you all for your interrest for my project.
PDS, there are no current CFT sets for the Rafale out at this time (AFAIK Dassault hasn't even done full scale flight testing), but from the model I saw, you could take a 1/48 droptank and play around with it
Welcome Pollux.... Glad to have a like-minded soul aboard.
One of my 'Alternative Histories' is the two wars for the Kuril Islands.
First Kuril Island War 1967
Japanese Mirages 5's & Hunter's covered by Mirage III's (I have these on the workbench) make a pre-emptive strike on Soviet facilities and get shot-down in large numbers by defending MiG 21's
Second Kuril Island War 1995
Following a general escalation in tension in the region, Japanese forces take advantage of a weekend Russian presence on the islands and launch a major offensive using F-111's, A-10's and Tornado's
Look forward to seeing your models.
Quote(AFAIK Dassault hasn't even done full scale flight testing)
Oh the CFT are operational and fonctional on the Rafale. There was even flight test and it'll be a standart element of the 2015 French Rafale F4 and the 2007 Singaporian Rafale (becouse we'll win!!! our fighter is more beautiful :wub: :wub: :P )
But there is no kit at all. But perhaps I have a solution. I'm not a great modeler, but I can try: I can "draw" the form of the CFTs on the Rafale fuselage and modified those part of the scheme with a different weathering, like if the CFt were just removed from the plane.
What do U think about that? I'm not sure I can do that, but maybe I will try!!
This afternoon, I read a comics book spinking about a french fighter squadron, the "Normandie-Niemen" who serves during the WWII with the russian, against the Nazis on the soviet front.
So, after having reading IJ story, I thought about a French elite squadron, equiped with the new modified version of the Rafale, the Rafale S, who will be sent in Japan to help the Japan Rafale and F-2 to dealing with an ennemy (I don't chose it for the moment) in a large war I have to imagine.
But it is still for the moment just speculatives ideas. ;)
So, it's 01.00AM, good night folks!!
I love your intended camoflage scheme Pollux - maritime blue's :wub: Not sure about the torpedo's, but what the hell it's your model, so go for it
By the way - Lyon - nice place to live
QuoteBy the way - Lyon - nice place to liveIndeed, very beautiful city and very nice by night ;)
But for modeling, Paris is better...(but I'm not crazy enough to live in a so big city!)
You got the right idea Pollux, live somewhere nice and just visit the big city..Thats what I do.
BTW, would you mind if I borrowed your Japanese Rafale idea and modify it a bit for my owmn Japanese scenario.
QuoteBTW, would you mind if I borrowed your Japanese Rafale idea and modify it a bit for my owmn Japanese scenario.
Do it !!! I'll enjoy watching other models like mine. And I'm not a very old modeler, so I like to learn how to do rights things when I look at the others...
Oh!! I forgot! I draw last year a fighter I love very well!!! But it will be too difficult to scratch it for me. So I want to post some pictures of it, if someone is interrested. Do I have to post it here, in this forum room or in an other??
EDIT: What does it mean "BTW"??
BTW = "By The Way"
One of the many "Netspeak" abbreviations out there.
Welcome to madhouse PDS. And kiss your wallet and your sanity goodbye. Love that blue and grey Rafale, got me thinking about a U.S.M.C. aggressor. Hell they used Kfirs so why not?
"arrives in thread late*
Don't Gekko Graphics do a decal sheet of what is Rafales?
Also, what about an RAF Rafale "Eurofighter". France were asked to join the Eurofighter coalition, but demanded that the plane be designed, tested and built in France, with Dassault as the principal contractor. Basically they wanted everyone else to help pay for the Rafale, then Dassault would sell them it back :P As one MoD official said "one wonders what they would have demanded if they weren't interested in a co-operative project" :lol:
The picture I posted with an Australian Rafale is the one you can see on the Gekkographics website.
All the drawing and models on this site are wonderfull !!!!! The Swiss Rafale is amazing!!!
Came across these a little while ago - some of the early steps towards what is now the Rafale:
nice find Greg!
Love the twin-tailed one.
The wing shape is not too different from the one on the BAe pre-EAP mockup.
There were plenty of other designs that were studied for the Rafale, most of them being scale down Mirage 4000 with the typical long nose and big canards...
But finally, mostly due to the needs of the naval variant, the size was reduced, the nose shortened (for carrier landing visibility), with smaller canards (to reduce RCS and because they mostly act on the wing aerodynamics than as direct control surfaces) and much more integrated general forms...
I think that one of the other proposed design was a twin tail Rafale with double-delta wings... This one looked very good!
That second one looks like an updated Cutlass. Cool!
Following the "Rafale - The early years" topic, I thought it could be a good idea to create a topic about the possible evolution of the Rafale design (and not the alternate designs of the ACF project).
From now, we already know some of those evolutions that never became true, mainly due to lake of founds:
The Rafale N (ex-Rafale BM) was a twin-seater variant of the Rafale M developped in 1999 in order to give to the Marine Nationale a plane able to operate in harder and more dangerous conditions than the Rafale M (or in the same conditions but with more security).
60% of the Carrier Air Wing had to be based on the Rafale N, and the Rafale N was planed to operate most of the cruise missile missions and 100% of the recce and nuclear strike missions.
But due to the lack of gun of the N version, we could guess that the Rafale M will be preferred for CAS and interception missions, but also for tanker missions (as the single seat variant carry more fuel)
Whatever, in 2004, one year before the prototype first flight, the variant was canceled in order to free some money. Sadly, this money was not used in order to increase the Rafale M orders by 5 units, as it was initially wished.
But what if the Rafale N entered operational service? It would have probably look like that:
One of the reasons I always support the Rafale N idea was that such a plane could be just a perfect leader for a little UCAV squadron!!
Indeed, French Navy will only have 60 Rafale with a lifetime shorter than our new aircraft carrier! But even without that, with such a little Air Wing, it was calculated that the Marine Nationale will only have enough aircrafts to fight a SINGLE major war!!
And if such a war happened after the production line of the Rafale is closed, we'll be very happy to have UCAV (such as X-47) to complete the Rafale or, even better, to die instead ofthem!!
So, a Rafale N with 4 QF-47A UCAV (or naval NeuroN) sounds good to me!
Back to 1999, again, Dassault proposed for exportation a Mk.2 variant of the plane. The main was to offer an export Rafale in 2003 with better equipments that the French F3 standard, planed for 2008!!
The first customer was planed to be Korea, and the Mk.2 had to be later presented in Singapore, Saudi Arabia or Brazil. Sadly, after the defeat in Korea, Dassault didn't found the money to keep the development going, mainly due to the schizophrenic policies of French governments, that want to help the exportation but didn't want to pay for that until the first export customer is found :dum:
Whatever, the planed goodies included state of the art sensors and weapons. Just look at that:
-AESA radar RBE2-AA
-M88-3 engines, rated at +90kN instead of 78kN (without higher fuel consumption)
-New generation OSF (advanced FLIR, TV, laser range-finder, with better track abilities and new air-to-ground abilities)
-Damocles pod in order to fire EGBU, Paveway IV and/or AASM etc...
-CFTs for around 1200 litres
-RecoNG (new generation real time recce pod)
Dassault even planed to integrate a newly developed ECM pod and anti-radar missiles. Meteor missiles and classic NATO weapons (Maverick, JDAM etc...) had to be integrated in the Rafale attack system later. The external wing hard points, never
Other equipments could have been developed for an potential Mk.3 variant that could have appear around 2010-2012:
-Towed Decoy system (probably fixed on redesigned wing-tip missile rails)
-Radar and engines modernizations
-Larger CFTs for around 1800+ litres
-Modernized gear for greater maximal weight
But the main modernization could have been a better integration of European and US weapons and pods, with the help of some of the main export customers (Brimstone, Alarm, Harm, JSOW, SLAM-ER, NSM, Litening III and Sniper pods, Taurus, Sidewinder, IRIS-T, maybe AMRAAM etc...)
Note that nothing official came about this variant, even the name is not official. The information I got went from some guys I know that use to work for Thales and the Armée de l'Air (as this variant simply didn't went trough the "restaurant discussion" phase of conception, nothing is classified... because nothing really exist!! :rolleyes: )
Well, maybe it could help some of you that wanted to build some Rafale models but have no credible ideas.
For my part, I have thousands of credible ideas about the Rafale, but it's quite impossible to find any 1/72 kit of the Rafale in my city :wacko:
If you guys have any other information, or even good ideas for customers (realistic or not! Don't forget that all realistic solution mean boring grey scheme! :lol: :lol: ), don't hesitate!
I will come back later in order to talked to you about a stealth evolution of the Rafale.
I recently came across a reference to a Mk4 version of the Rafale - no real details (it may have even been a typo) other than it was seen as a counterpart to the F-35.
Quotea Rafale N with 4 QF-47A UCAV (or naval NeuroN) sounds good to me!
How about a UCAV variant of the Rafale - remove the cockpit to start with.
QuoteI recently came across a reference to a Mk4 version of the Rafale - no real details (it may have even been a typo) other than it was seen as a counterpart to the F-35.
It could be the "stealth" variant of the Rafale I heard... or maybe a confusion with the F4 standard that is a kind of MLU for the Rafale (with no information about it, as the French government didn't chose already what will be its need for the 2015+)
As far as I know, some studies were made for a stealthier variant of the Rafale.
The Rafale is already a very "discreet" plane (don't know how to say that in English! I mean that the Rafale is not fully stealth, but stealth enough to have a advantage against SAM and AWACS threats, specially compared to Mirage 2000 or Typhoon interceptors)
Initially, Dassault proposed an internal carriage for the missiles, but it was canceled because of the additional weight (and cost) it gives to the plane. But the plane incorporate a large number of technologies made to reduce the SER, including new generation and still top secret jamming systems.
In case of war or for missions that require more stealth abilities, a system of disposable tapes will be applied on the panel lines, in order to significantly reduce the SER (such a system is not used in peace time for a reason of cost, because they have to be removed after each flight!)
Moreover, before the Rafale B and Rafale C designations (in order to separate the twin and the single seat variants), both variants were called Rafale D, for "Discretion".
The "stealthier" plane that was studied some years ago (and maybe still studied) would have been largely modified, with a system of tapes on the panel lines that is more sustainable (it require a better management of the maintain hatches), a better internal jammer.
Some annexe reports talked about an external jamming pod, and some "stealth technology demonstrators", with no other precisions.
We also know that Dassault and Thales used to worked on a semi-conformal fuel and weapon tank, something like what is planed for the FB-22, or on the Super Gripen.
It is a kind of CFT under the fuselage, able to carry fuel, BVR missiles or both!
Stealth tanks for bigger payload (bombs, air-to-ground missiles) were also planed but canceled not far from now.
I just don't know if Dassault still worked on this variant planed to be the F-35 counterpart, as you said.
Personally, I think that Dassault had to find some customers for the F3 variant before thinking about a F4 or F5 MLU variant, or even a stealth variant. France will simply just not pay for that, not until 2015-2020 at least!!
QuoteHow about a UCAV variant of the Rafale - remove the cockpit to start with.
Good idea, mate!
I think that the real life Future UCAV will look like the Neuron, i.e. a medium stealth flying wing, but in a whiff situation (like a WWIII, something like that), it could be interresting to have an UCAV-Rafale, faster to design and build!
I'll agree the the Rafale is a reduced RCS aircraft, though I'd love to know more about some of the materials in the structure to get a better idea. Covering the panel joints to maintain an uninterrupted surface definitely reduces RCS and careful design of the access panels, both in number and location can also be a help. There are ways of reducing the RCS of the engine inlets, but I'm not at all certain that the Rafale has the best of them as it's something of a proprietary method, as far as I know, developed by NGC. It's one reason they do the F-35's inlets.
If the aircraft is fly-by-wire, a UCAV conversion gets to be a lot simpler.
"Reduced RCS"!!! That's the word I was looking for in order to translate "Discret"!
Thank you Elmayerle!!
I only wanted to precise something. If the Rafale conception led to a reduced RCS design, there are for now several problems with this reduction of RCS.
The first one is that the SPECTRA ECM/ECCM suite, that is presumed to be able of good active jamming (some analysts talked about active cancellation for some parts of the aircraft, but I still have doubts about that), is not fully complete by now. But a soon to come evolution of the software (and more evolutions that have to come later) will continuously upgrade the system.
But the biggest problem of the Rafale right now is it's really SLOW speed of delivery!! less than 1,5 fighter by month!! It's quite not an industrial speed anymore!
This is the source of many problems with the subcontractors and with the job experience of the employees on the production line, leading to problems on some panel joints (bigger than planed) and the surface regularity!
Other bigger problems appeared (a plane was delivered without its internal tank in the wing!!), but were likely erased in shot time (Thanks to the One Year Warranty!! :P )
Those problems are identified and most of them will be erased on the next batch of aircrafts (just like the electronic problems on the first Rafale M were quickly resolved), but it is symptomatic of the absolute NEED of export markets for the Rafale... (accelerate the deliveries of the Rafale will mean to close the production line before 2020, something that the government doesn't want).
For the materials in the structure, I don't know what is their composition (I heard one time something about them, but just didn't understand a word of all those barbarian names for composite materials!! :lol: ).
I just know that the parts of the plane that are likely bad for RCS were treated with more (or special) RAM, disposed with in specific positions internally (but well, I still didn't understand a word of all that!!)
I'm sure that if you were at my place, you would have notice a lot of interesting stuffs! I'm sorry that I didn't listen much in Physic class in High School <_<
For the engine inlets, more stealth inlets were planed, but they were heavier, and the mass problem was a crucial point on the Rafale program.
Talking about RCS reduction, I read that the actual air intakes were a compromise between more stealth inlets and higher performances inlets of the initial design (with supersonic cones, less stealth)
But the engine itself is well hidden by the inlet, and the first stage of the compressor was designed in order to reduce RCS more (I read somewhere that the software that was used to design that was later used to design one of the US engines designed for stealth aircrafts, don't remember which one)
Whatever, the Rafale is not a stealth aircraft, and it could request a lot of modifications to be such. But what about talking about those modifications.
Personally, I think that a rafale with longer and thiner LERX, new designed larger canards, a "lozenge" section nose (ala F-22, F-35 or Makko), new designed tail, engine exhaust ala F-35, engine inlet ala F-35, a one piece canopy ala F-22, and semi-recessed fuel and weapons stealth pods could do a good start point for a stealth fighter.
Rafale CJ? Or perhaps the Free Republic of Chad? Libya?
Spain? And somewhat seriously, Iran?
As I said, there are ways of getting reduced RCS inlets. NGC has developed a way to combine RAM into one-piece composite inlets to significantly lower RCS. More than that I probably shouldn't say. It took them considerable time and money to develop it, but they now have it.
The nozzles could use the treatment applied to the F-35's nozzles, though it's all based on the LOAN program. The shaping is only part of it, there are some very proprietary materials involved, too.
I'd say one approach to reduce RCS is to replace metallic skin panels with advanced composite ones. Properly designed, these will cut RCS while still meeting all the other requirements for skin panels.
Thanks for the precisions Elmayerle. just a question, what means NGC??
For Dary, you have pretty good ideas here!
The Spanish one always sounds good to me, as it was the first missed opportunity for a collaboration. In 1985, they chose Eurofighter instead of Dassault, but it was very near to be different.
Some artist drawings were even made of a Spanish Rafale, at this time only known as ACF. It was fitted with "souris" (cones) in the inlets, a design that later was canceled.
Quote(just like the electronic problems on the first Rafale M were quickly resolved)
You said quickly? :rolleyes:
Rafale availability rate in french navy:
2003 : 43 %
2004 : 57 %
2005 : 57 %
2006 : 58 %
2007 : 77 %
QuoteThose problems are identified and most of them will be erased on the next batch of aircrafts...
In fact, french military have always lot of problems with Rafale, especially with M88 engines and electronics..
Rafale availability rate in french air force:
2006: 44,8 %
2007: 45,6 %
AESA radar RBE2-AA for 2010/2013, Damoclès pod for 2009...
source: french assemblée nationale
The problems on the Rafale M were identified and the solutions were found quickly.
But their is a difference between a correction on the design and the application on all the operational aircrafts.
Concerning the availability rate, don't forget that it does not reflect the reality. I mean that a lot of problems are "fictive", due to the lack of experience of the ground crew (just compare the availability rate of the Marine and Armée de l'Air on the Rafale F2 to see that) and also some... well, some "liberties" taken by Dassault in the Rafale maintain.
Soon, the availability rate will grow up just because of the better training of the ground crews, while the aircraft will be quite the same.
That's natural for a new plane, F-22 and Typhoon had and still have the same problems.
And for the general availability rate of the French Armée de l'Air, it is around -50% for all the airplanes in the French territory, but that's mainly due to cost factors than to the aircrafts themselves (In external operations, the rate is between 85 and 98% most of time).
The RAF sadly have the same problems with its Tornado and Harrier.
5 years to make corrections on navy so called "operational jets"? it's a bit to long, according to me. All navy Rafales M problems are not solved at this time, and it's the same in the Air Force (M-88 engines).
How many french aircrafts are now in external operations? few, very few. Availability rate of 90% in this case is nothing. Rafales in Afghanistan can't launch any laser-guided bombs without assistance of Mirage 2000 Damocles Laser Designation pods... :rolleyes:
Sure, the availability rate will grow up, but only if politicians give money.
The availability rate (all aircrafts in condition and those that can be in condition within 6 hours) of the french air force (in french):
This is not the question, Rafi. I mean, the actual problems of the operational Rafale are due to lack of money by our politicians, not due to technical problems.
Dassault knows how to solve the problems, but the government just don't put enough money in the program.
But compared those problems to the Typhoon's and F-22's ones, and you'll see that it is not something exceptional (it's even something sadly typical for those programs)
Whatever, what are the problems on the M88 you're talking about? I never heard something about that.
How many french aircrafts are now in external operations? few, very few. Availability rate of 90% in this case is nothing.
I have a different point of view ;)
Of course that's very few, but 12 Rafale were deployed in Afghanistan in 2007. Compared to the 6 Harrier of the RAF, 6-8 German Tornado etc...
It's quite representative of the French deployments in the near past and probably the near future, and after all, that's all that counts. For me, the rate is quite meaningful, moreover if you add to that the very poor number of Rafale operational (in comparison, there are 3 or 4 more Typhoon operational, but none of them is combat proven).
I'm curious to see similar rates (in similar conditions) for the F-22 and the Typhoon when they will be deploy.
Well, whatever, as I said, all of this is very interesting, but not really in the subject, except if we want to imagine an Alternate History where French politicians continue to decrease the investments in the Rafale (among other programs).
It will certainly be very realistic, but not very funny to imagine Rafale evolutions!
NGC = Northrop Grumman Corporation
Sorry, I'm so used to using that acronym around work that it's become a habit.
Combat proven in Afghanistan... only against poor talibans with kalashnikov! France invent a new military concept "VEMACPAK" (very expensive multirole aircraft combat proven against kalashnikov) and is proud of it... :D :D :D
QuoteSur les trois flottes de chasse, la difficulté concerne la disponibilité des moteurs ; pour chacun d'entre eux (M88, M53 et Atar) des plans d'action ont été mis en œuvre et devraient produire leurs effets à partir de 2008.
source: http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/budge...8/a0280-tVI.asp (http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13/budget/plf2008/a0280-tVI.asp)
QuoteL'appareil a pu connaître quelques petits problèmes de jeunesse qui sont en passe d'être résolus. C'est ainsi que ce chasseur polyvalent très sophistiqué dispose d'un système automatique de détection de panne sans doute trop sensible qui avait tendance à déclarer l'avion hors service alors qu'il était en parfait état de voler. Ces problèmes sont désormais identifiés et l'état-major de l'armée de l'air se déclare optimiste pour les mois à venir...
source: assemblée nationale (budget 2008)
QuoteNGC = Northrop Grumman Corporation
Sorry, I'm so used to using that acronym around work that it's become a habit.
No problem ;) :lol:
I wanted now to resume the different markets were the Rafale was in competition, on order to see what are the most realistic possibilities for a what-if:
The Rafale was very close to win, but the F-35 won only with a short advantage.
Considering the F-35 delays and over costs nowadays, what if Netherlands knew that, or what if they made the competition after the first problems appeared on the F-35?
It could be a chance to see a Rafale in Netherlands colors!!
What about one in Dutch Navy splinter camo with anti-ship (Kormoran? NSM?) missiles under the wings??
Technically, the Rafale Mk2 was judged better than the F-15. But for political and economical reasons, the F-15 was finally preferred. But what if the Rafale won?
It could have been a chance for the Mk2 variant to have its first customer, and maybe lead to ameliorations on the French Rafale (M88-3, AESA radar sooner etc...) or to a more credible option on following export markets.
Well, one more time, the Rafale was finalist but lose against the F-15... again!
For me, it wasn't an illogical choice: after all, the F-15 share it's weapons with the already operational F-16, and probably have a common philosophy of maintain. Add to that the historical and political links between Singapore and the USA, and it was probably the good way to go.
But what if the Rafale won? For example, if the Mk.2 variant was already bought by the Korean, maybe it could be a step to the integration of US weapons on the Rafale, something that could convince the Singaporean?
And if we just talk about abilities, a Mk.2 variant with M88-3 and advanced AESA radar would have been a much more serious pretender against the Typhoon and F-15 in Singapore.
Argh!! Probably the most stupid action of our new government: losing a deal that was impossible to lose!! But never underestimate politicians! :P
Whatever, it appears that the deal was finally lose against F-16... or maybe just canceled, with no replacement.
Nevertheless, Moroccan Rafale is just the coolest idea for me, as it allowed ... DESERT SCHEME! :wub: :wub: Yum yum!!
Just like the Morocco!! Good opportunity for desert camo!! Probably not in real life (as Saudis planed to repaint all their fighters in boring gray), but in what-if, everything is possible!!
I don't really remember the conditions of the market. i think it's quite similar to the one in Netherlands.
But did you ever saw this artist picture of the Gripen N (or Super Gripen) with a Norwegian splinter camo?? It was soooo cool! And whatever the plane that carry it, so it HAD to be done on a Rafale! :P
Oh! I almost forgot this one! One of the first attempt of exportation for the Rafale, but the plane was just not mature enough. F-16E and Mirage 2000-9 were bought instead.
Such a pity that all those delays erased all chances to see a Rafale in a low viz camo scheme!!
Well... Did I forgot something?
QuoteCombat proven in Afghanistan... only against poor talibans with kalashnikov! France invent a new military concept "VEMACPAK" (very expensive multirole aircraft combat proven against kalashnikov) and is proud of it...
Sans vouloir être désagréable, Rafi, je trouve que ce n'est pas vraiment le sujet ;)
Moi aussi je trouve ça débile de balancer notre fric par les fenêtres de la sorte, mais je ne choisi pas contre qui la France part en guerre (et pour le coup, elle non plus!! :lol: )
Le fait que le Rafale coute cher, qu'il ait des problèmes de jeunesse et qu'il ne soit que l'ombre de ce qui était prévu à la base, c'est désolant, je suis d'accord.
Mais il faut relativiser et voir que ce sont des problèmes qui seront résolus, que le F-16 et le Mirage 2000 ont connu les même (voire pires) en leur temps, et que par rapport au Typhoon (prix, couts de maintenance) et au F-22 (prix, problèmes d'obscolecence et se conception), on est pas forcément les plus mal barrés...
D'ailleurs, tes liens montrent que les choses ne vont pas si mal que ça (il y a des problèmes, ils sont identifiés, et en passe d'être résolus). Enfin, c'est comme ça que je vois les choses.
Si tu veux, on peut continuer dans parler par MP ou ailleurs sur ce forum ou un autre forum ;)
(Reading your links, I supposed that you speak French, Rafi. If it's not the case, just tell me, I'll send you the translation of this message by PM)
And there's always a possibility with ROC (Taiwan) although we can sure wait until the discussion for future customers...... I kinda feel by that time Rafale should have most of its birth pains squared away......
Price might still be a problem, considering the "proud" tradition of opposition parties in general.
Well, from a personal point of view, I'm just as glad the Netherlands stayed with the F-35. They've greatly contributed to it and their engineers that I've worked with have been excellent folk to work with.
Would it be possible for the Rafale to carry the CT 52 Reconnaissance Pod? Considering the overall dimensions and shape, it does resemble the 600 gallon fuel tank originally carried by the F-4 Phantom on the centerline fuselage pylon. If the Rafale is capable of operating with the CT-52, what other interfacing with the airframe would be necessary to make it succeed?
You mean the huge thing carried by the Mirage IV under its belly ? This technology is a bit obsolete now. But maybe it should be feasible... overall dimensions were similar to the AN-52 nuclear free fall bomb, which was carried not only by Mirage IV, but also by smaller machines such as Mirage IIIE and Jaguars.
Got a Air Fan magazine dealing with Mirage IV recon flights and of course of the CT-52 pod. I'll try to find it ASAP and give you some details ok ?
Btw Jaguars, Mirage IV and Mirage IIIE carried huge ECM pods called Barrax, Calmar and Boa. They have been withdrawn for 15 years now, but a Rafale with such load would be cool, too.
Anyone got any good links or ref info on SAAF A2A missiles that might go on a SAAF Rafale?
The Revell kits come with Magic and Mica missiles. I was thinking of wiffing something starting with the Magic ... modding the rear fins to Python-ish shapes, and putting the Mica nose on instead of the Magic nose/seekerhead ... would look different enough but still similar to Magic.
But something SAAF would probably be good too ... I'm just not up on SAAF A2A stuff. Any help or ideas appreciated
Thanks for the links and info ... that should help me quite a bit.
The Iris-T as used by the Germans (among others):
Although an older missile the AIM-132 ASRAAM is still a potent weapon:
Then there's the Meteor BVR missile, expected to replace the AMRAAM on the RAF Tiffies:
And lets not forget the Israelis:
And the older Python-4
A-Darter are easy to build from some ASRAAM missiles (found on the Revell Typhoon in 1/72 for example), or even from some Magic or Sidewinder (just cut off the canards and reduce the forward wings).
The A-Darter is planed to integrate the SAAF Gripen and, more interesting for you, they will probably equip the Rafale in the Brazilian Air Force if it chose this plane against the Super Hornet or Gripen.
For the R-Darter, it's basiccaly a Derby. Just cut the wings of an AMRAAM and put them on the front of the missile, "et voila"!!
Thanks for the additional ideas and input, guys. That SAAF site link was very helpful, especially the out of service and unprocured weps list.
Kukri was the item and configuration I had in mind, although I didn't realize it was that old. Think I'm going to go with an advanced Kukri and maybe a couple Derby/ R-Darter types.
With the new UK-France Defence Treaty in place and talk of sharing carriers, how long before we see some more Rafales in RN FAA schemes start appearing?
I've got a kit earmarked for EJ200s and Flying Fists. :thumbsup:
The Brazilian Air Force is involved in the mistake of buying the Rafale. The open competition estva and favorite of the military was the F/A-18 E / F. But bilateral agreements involving the help in building a nuclear submarine and the sale of Scorpene class the Brazilian navy, made the government decide the Rafale. :banghead: :blink:
With flight hour costing almost twice the F/A-18E/F, with an avionics suite that is not fully developed, with a sales history to ... only France, leaves doubt in quality.
An embrace and also apologize for my English
I thought the Air Force preference was for the Gripen rather than the SH. Doesn't really matter though since latest intell is that the whole program won't go ahead and that instead more Mirage 2000s will be acquired.
Anyone done a South African Rafale - instead of Gripen?
Quote from: GTX on December 18, 2010, 11:49:57 AM
I thought the Air Force preference was for the Gripen rather than the SH. Doesn't really matter though since latest intell is that the whole program won't go ahead and that instead more Mirage 2000s will be acquired.
According to a recent article on DefenseNews.com, the military in Brazil wants the F/A-18E/F. Boeing has proposed a joint build and tech transfer with Embraer to push it over the top. No decision as yet.
Has anyone done a what if images of Israel or South African Rafale's? I think the Israel squadron should be something other than 101 just to be interesting. Too bad is so unlikely Rafale would be great IAF addition.
Just a bit of inspiration for you:
I'll give some Rafa's a crack.
Quote from: GTX on June 20, 2011, 11:52:58 PM
Just a bit of inspiration for you:
Quote from: GTX on June 21, 2011, 02:15:40 AM
A follower of
Rafale the Goddess of Squall
EF-2000 the God of Typhoon.
Don't ask me, my dining room welcomes all religious sects. :cheers:
Quote from: GTX on June 21, 2011, 02:15:40 AM
I was the very thought of a French aircraft in the FAA, when we're quite capable of building and flying our own carrier aircraft. Or would be if successive UK Governments had more than one week's attention span............
Does anyone have any good pics of the full set of stores stations for the Rafale? IIRC, the airframe is designed for a maximum air-to-air loadout of 12 or 14 MICA missiles, but I can't remember if I ever saw any photos of the actual hardpoints. (I think it was six missile rails under the fuselage, three under each wing, and one on each wingtip - the ones that are usually missing are the ones that go under the intakes.)
Belgium is interested in buying carrier based Rafale-M's?
now this is the stupidest thing ive heared today, and it isnt even April Fools day yet ;D
Everyone's reaction (https://youtu.be/UOYBWwmcXeg)
This was my go
Mixing Rafale and Mirage F1. (top view fits with first side view)
A bigger Rafale ?
A Rafale for supersonic tourism (three to 7 ejection seats) :rolleyes:
Bottom version = Rafale School trainer! ;)
Quote from: Old Wombat on August 25, 2022, 04:57:02 PMBottom version = Rafale School trainer! ;)
Don't you mean "the short bus"? :wacko:
Quote from: scooter on August 25, 2022, 06:10:07 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on August 25, 2022, 04:57:02 PMBottom version = Rafale School trainer! ;) Don't you mean "the short bus"? :wacko:
Bottom version = Rafale School bus! :thumbsup:
A more threatening version of the "II-B"
ohh pheonix`s nice! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Steel Penguin on August 29, 2022, 08:19:10 AMohh pheonix`s nice! :thumbsup:
Yep! Whiffed Pheonix nicknamed «Comet» (see picture below)
thats big! what are they for? A2A still or shipkillers?
A2A, they are bomberkillers! :wacko:
active homers then ? with a very respectable size radar set in the nose, going to have a heck of a range an all. :thumbsup: