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General Modelling Forum => Tips, Tools, and Techniques => Topic started by: Doug K on May 05, 2018, 01:49:21 AM

Title: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Doug K on May 05, 2018, 01:49:21 AM
Simple question; what on Earth has happened to Humbrol Eamels? I'm quite old school, I still use a hairy stick for my models but even using a pretty good sable, the Matt and satin whites I bought for my Gannet are awful.

It's like spreading a plastic goop, not the paint I know from the (relatively)recent past.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: zenrat on May 05, 2018, 02:02:21 AM
I've only bought one Humbrol Enamel in the last 10 years (metalcote gunmetal) and it is horrible.  Sounds like the same problem - it just doesn't brush out.
I suppose I could've tried thinning it but I just put it to one side and used acrylic.
I've also tried Humbrol clears and liquid mask and i'm not impressed with them either.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on May 05, 2018, 02:19:44 AM
I've not bought any Humbrol enamels for years, just their acrylics and with those the pots drive me mad  :banghead: However I find brush painting whites of any make over large areas problematical at best. If I have large area's then I use Halford's Appliance White.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Old Wombat on May 05, 2018, 02:22:49 AM
I've found if I mix Humbrol paints in the tin, then seal them properly, the bl@@dy stuff "cures" in the tin. I've even bought a tin that had cured before I opened it!

That was only 2 days after I bought it & it was recently acquired stock according to the store owner.

Don't know who's making their paints now but they're becoming extremely marginal as a useful product.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Hobbes on May 05, 2018, 03:07:29 AM
Quote from: zenrat on May 05, 2018, 02:02:21 AM
I've only bought one Humbrol Enamel in the last 10 years (metalcote gunmetal) and it is horrible.  Sounds like the same problem - it just doesn't brush out.
I suppose I could've tried thinning it but I just put it to one side and used acrylic.
I've also tried Humbrol clears and liquid mask and i'm not impressed with them either.

The Metalcote colors are an outlier: they use a very different paint formulation compared to the enamels. I've got some Metalcote from a few years ago, and that works well - but only if you thin it.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Dizzyfugu on May 05, 2018, 03:14:57 AM
Hmm, I have been using the Humbrol Metalcote for years and never had problems. With age, the paints tend to become dry and more viscous, but from my experience they take thinning well - and they need to be fluid for a good finish. A bigger brush with more volume than you'd normally use (e. g. with standard enamels) is also recommended, because the bigger paint reservoir in the brush tip keeps the whole stuff fluid for a longer period. Small brushes tend to simply dry out, esp. when you create larger areas.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: zenrat on May 05, 2018, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 05, 2018, 03:14:57 AM
...A bigger brush with more volume than you'd normally use (e. g. with standard enamels) is also recommended, because the bigger paint reservoir in the brush tip keeps the whole stuff fluid for a longer period. Small brushes tend to simply dry out, esp. when you create larger areas.

Good advice but not much use for detail painting car chassis's.

I still have a lot of Humbrol enamels from "before" and they are fine despite being over 30 years old.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Weaver on May 05, 2018, 06:46:48 AM
Hmmm... :unsure:

I ONLY use Humbrol enamels and I don't have most of these problems, although I have had severe problems with their spray-can varnish in the past (a problem which I believe has now been rectified). I always stir the paint VERY thoroughly. Then I put the paint stirrer on a plastic pallet and ONLY use that as a paint reservoir for the brush: NEVER take paint from the lid or the tin. I occasionally thin it but not often.

I also airbrush it. Again, it seems fine as long as I use ONLY Humbrol thinners (other brands cause problems) and thin it about 2-2.5 parts thinners to 1 part paint. I have a jar-feed single-action airbrush, so it needs quite a lot of air pressure to lift the paint.

It's important to put the lid back on properly. If it's bent, straighten it. If there's dried paint around the sealing surfaces of the tin and/or the lid, clean it off. Press the lid back on as hard and as far as the factory did: I usually put it underneath the bench and then hammer or push on the base of the tin with a lot of force.

Ironically, the only enamel paint I have had consistent problems with is Revell, to the point where I've put all my Revell paints in a separate box and will probably never use them again.

Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 05, 2018, 07:33:04 AM
Quote from: Weaver on May 05, 2018, 06:46:48 AM

I usually put it underneath the bench and then hammer or push on the base of the tin with a lot of force.


I can't help feeling there's scope for a tale in the 'Things we did in a miss-spent youth' thread here.................  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Doug K on May 05, 2018, 08:54:11 AM
Quote from: zenrat on May 05, 2018, 04:23:43 AM
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 05, 2018, 03:14:57 AM
...A bigger brush with more volume than you'd normally use (e. g. with standard enamels) is also recommended, because the bigger paint reservoir in the brush tip keeps the whole stuff fluid for a longer period. Small brushes tend to simply dry out, esp. when you create larger areas.

Good advice but not much use for detail painting car chassis's.

I still have a lot of Humbrol enamels from "before" and they are fine despite being over 30 years old.

I'm the same, I have 30 year old tins that are still fine
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Doug K on May 05, 2018, 08:54:40 AM
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 05, 2018, 03:14:57 AM
Hmm, I have been using the Humbrol Metalcote for years and never had problems. With age, the paints tend to become dry and more viscous, but from my experience they take thinning well - and they need to be fluid for a good finish. A bigger brush with more volume than you'd normally use (e. g. with standard enamels) is also recommended, because the bigger paint reservoir in the brush tip keeps the whole stuff fluid for a longer period. Small brushes tend to simply dry out, esp. when you create larger areas.

Yeah, that has been my method too
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Doug K on May 05, 2018, 08:57:38 AM
Quote from: Weaver on May 05, 2018, 06:46:48 AM
Hmmm... :unsure:

I ONLY use Humbrol enamels and I don't have most of these problems, although I have had severe problems with their spray-can varnish in the past (a problem which I believe has now been rectified). I always stir the paint VERY thoroughly. Then I put the paint stirrer on a plastic pallet and ONLY use that as a paint reservoir for the brush: NEVER take paint from the lid or the tin. I occasionally thin it but not often.

I also airbrush it. Again, it seems fine as long as I use ONLY Humbrol thinners (other brands cause problems) and thin it about 2-2.5 parts thinners to 1 part paint. I have a jar-feed single-action airbrush, so it needs quite a lot of air pressure to lift the paint.

It's important to put the lid back on properly. If it's bent, straighten it. If there's dried paint around the sealing surfaces of the tin and/or the lid, clean it off. Press the lid back on as hard and as far as the factory did: I usually put it underneath the bench and then hammer or push on the base of the tin with a lot of force.

Ironically, the only enamel paint I have had consistent problems with is Revell, to the point where I've put all my Revell paints in a separate box and will probably never use them again.

Yeah, I mix thoroughly and only take from the stirrer, the weird thing is that the two whites I'm working with have the same problem, as does the radome tan. If the grey is the same then I'm in trouble.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on May 06, 2018, 05:54:39 AM
Quote from: zenrat on May 05, 2018, 04:23:43 AM

I still have a lot of Humbrol enamels from "before" and they are fine despite being over 30 years old.

Me to, including loads of the authentics.

Quote from: Weaver on May 05, 2018, 06:46:48 AM
although I have had severe problems with their spray-can varnish in the past (a problem which I believe has now been rectified).


Have you any farther info on this H ? I've almost become paranoid with their spray varnish
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Doug K on May 06, 2018, 09:40:38 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on May 06, 2018, 05:54:39 AM
Quote from: zenrat on May 05, 2018, 04:23:43 AM

I still have a lot of Humbrol enamels from "before" and they are fine despite being over 30 years old.

Me to, including loads of the authentics.

Quote from: Weaver on May 05, 2018, 06:46:48 AM
although I have had severe problems with their spray-can varnish in the past (a problem which I believe has now been rectified).


Have you any farther info on this H ? I've almost become paranoid with their spray varnish

A good question, I used it on an Irish Aer Chor Hurricane and it ate the decals, very weird.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on December 17, 2020, 09:58:49 AM
I just found out from my LMS that they can no longer get Humbrol enamels into the country --- I was told what is on the shelf is all that you can get.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 17, 2020, 10:12:11 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on December 17, 2020, 09:58:49 AM

I just found out from my LMS that they can no longer get Humbrol enamels into the country --- I was told what is on the shelf is all that you can get.


That may only last until the Brexit business has rumbled to a conclusion though.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on December 17, 2020, 10:31:44 AM
Lets hope so Kit ---
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Rick Lowe on December 17, 2020, 03:06:00 PM
I've had similar experiences, both with the decades-old tins being perfectly viable and a newly-bought one drying in the tin.


I also have a tin of Gunmetal or Iron that's doing something funny: it's an older tin that I've put a few drops from a newer bottle of Humbrol Thinners into.
Now it's become almost a gel, though after shaking and stirring it will still resuscitate enough to brush on pretty well.


As far as matt white goes, nowadays if I can't use a spraycan primer I will use Games Workshop white.
(It's about the only one of theirs I will use, as they're prices are not what I'm willing to pay, and after it's finished I will probably find something else.)
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 18, 2020, 06:25:26 AM
Quote from: Rick Lowe on December 17, 2020, 03:06:00 PM

I also have a tin of Gunmetal or Iron that's doing something funny: it's an older tin that I've put a few drops from a newer bottle of Humbrol Thinners into.


As far as matt white goes, nowadays if I can't use a spraycan primer I will use Games Workshop white.
(It's about the only one of theirs I will use, as they're prices are not what I'm willing to pay, and after it's finished I will probably find something else.)

I to have had some odd things happen when using an old Humbrol tin and more recent thinners.

As for white I've been using Vallejo Model Colour. It's very thin (airbrush ready ?) and I'm a brush painter, so takes a few coats, but it's o.k.

Hoping when the show circut is back on to get some of the new Humbrol dropper bottle white and give that a try.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Rick Lowe on December 18, 2020, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 18, 2020, 06:25:26 AM
I to have had some odd things happen when using an old Humbrol tin and more recent thinners.

As for white I've been using Vallejo Model Colour. It's very thin (airbrush ready ?) and I'm a brush painter, so takes a few coats, but it's o.k.

It's probably because they tweaked the thinners recipe when they made the paints 'greener'. Or the 'greener' paints don't react to the original thinners recipe the same way.

Good to know about the Vallejo, I will give it a try when the GW pot is empty.
OTOH, I've just gotten a swathe of Gunze acrylic from someone at the club, and the white in that range seems alright- again, thin, but should work ok.

More experimentation needed, which means more modelling required... what a shame...
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: jcf on December 18, 2020, 03:15:16 PM
The thing to bear in mind with oil-based enamels is that the plant sourced oils used
are drying oils which means they "dry", actually convert, to a polymerized film in the
presence of air and once cured there's no going back.

If the solvent thinners are evaporating from the tin, then air is getting in the tin which
will eventually lead to the whole mass of the remaining paint curing, you're not yet at
the point of no return so adding thinner will still give you something gel-like that is
usable for a while longer but it will finally become a semi-solid mass.

With old enamels in this thickened condition it's better to use lighter fluid/VM&P* Naptha
for thinning rather than white spirit/paint thinner/mineral spirits whether generic or
proprietary.

Another important thing with enamel paints is to avoid thinning the whole pot in its
original container, this will actually speed the rate at which the paint thickens in the
tin/jar etc. Best practice is to decant, thin and then keep any remainder in a separate
container rather than returning it to the original container.

*VM&P = Varnish Maker & Painters
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Rick Lowe on December 18, 2020, 04:24:03 PM
Hey, thanks for the tips JCF - some points to ponder and remember (or try to...) :thumbsup:
Some things I have to be told more than once...  the 'not thinning the whole pot' is one of them...:banghead:
Though not using a xylene-based brush cleaner to thin paint is one I learned and retained pretty quickly... d'oh!!

Ah well, at least Humbrol is still available here, when the thinned pots eventually solidify, so that's something.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Doug K on December 19, 2020, 06:01:02 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 17, 2020, 10:12:11 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on December 17, 2020, 09:58:49 AM

I just found out from my LMS that they can no longer get Humbrol enamels into the country --- I was told what is on the shelf is all that you can get.


That may only last until the Brexit business has rumbled to a conclusion though.

I believe that Hornby aren't shipping anything outside the UK until after January, they don't know what Brexit means in terms of tariffs so they have basically stopped dead until after.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 19, 2020, 06:21:59 AM
Quote from: Doug K on December 19, 2020, 06:01:02 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 17, 2020, 10:12:11 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on December 17, 2020, 09:58:49 AM

I just found out from my LMS that they can no longer get Humbrol enamels into the country --- I was told what is on the shelf is all that you can get.


That may only last until the Brexit business has rumbled to a conclusion though.

I believe that Hornby aren't shipping anything outside the UK until after January, they don't know what Brexit means in terms of tariffs so they have basically stopped dead until after.

According to their website they will not be accepting orders from outside the UK between 14/12/20 and 4/1/21 due to potential delivery issues due to Brexit.

Interestingly they mention orders, but I assume that if they take an order on 5th Jan it will be shipped in the next day or two as they will know what the regs' are by then.

Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2020, 06:33:19 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 19, 2020, 06:21:59 AM

......as they will know what the regs' are by then.


Wanna bet?  :-\

At the rate Boris is going they won't even have WRITTEN any new regs by then.  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 19, 2020, 06:43:02 AM
Kit if we don't come to an agreement then we will be trading on WTO terms with those countries we haven't agreed specific ones with.

So companies will know the regs', they may not like them, but they will know one way or the other.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2020, 07:38:41 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Boris didn't 'miraculously' pull off an agreement with the EU.

Wholly to make him appear as the 'saviour of the day' and thus to try and avoid getting totally walloped in the next General Election.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 20, 2020, 06:16:35 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2020, 07:38:41 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Boris didn't 'miraculously' pull off an agreement with the EU.


I wouldn't be surprised at all Kit. I've been involved in some very low level EU discussions and decision making (often as a bag carrier  :rolleyes:) and in my experience they always leave it to the very last moment. The interesting thing will be if we do come to an agreement then there won't be enough time to get it past the 27 individual states as they all have to agree it. So what happens then ? A provisional agreement is put in place ? That could cause even more "fun".

Oh well such is life  :angel:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Rick Lowe on December 20, 2020, 01:30:26 PM
There's a reason it's called 'The Great Game'...
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 21, 2020, 06:27:36 AM
Quote from: Rick Lowe on December 20, 2020, 01:30:26 PM
There's a reason it's called 'The Great Game'...

Ah right, I thought that had ended around the start of the Great War, for GB anyway, but come to think of it Boris could be having some more delusions ?  ;) :angel:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Rick Lowe on December 21, 2020, 01:13:25 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 21, 2020, 06:27:36 AM
Quote from: Rick Lowe on December 20, 2020, 01:30:26 PM
There's a reason it's called 'The Great Game'...

Ah right, I thought that had ended around the start of the Great War, for GB anyway, but come to think of it Boris could be having some more delusions ?  ;) :angel:

Ooohhh no; that 'Game' has been going on since probably before the dawn of recorded history, and shows no signs of ever losing its' popularity...
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 22, 2020, 06:16:24 AM
Quote from: Rick Lowe on December 21, 2020, 01:13:25 PM

Ooohhh no; that 'Game' has been going on since probably before the dawn of recorded history, and shows no signs of ever losing its' popularity...

True. I was being far to Anglo-centric and thinking in terms of UK/Russia and Afghanistan and surrounding locals.

You've now got me thinking of when and where the various rounds were played  ;D
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Rick Lowe on December 22, 2020, 02:20:54 PM
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: scooter on December 22, 2020, 02:55:13 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 22, 2020, 06:16:24 AM
Quote from: Rick Lowe on December 21, 2020, 01:13:25 PM

Ooohhh no; that 'Game' has been going on since probably before the dawn of recorded history, and shows no signs of ever losing its' popularity...

True. I was being far to Anglo-centric and thinking in terms of UK/Russia and Afghanistan and surrounding locals.

You've now got me thinking of when and where the various rounds were played  ;D

I've a few ideas, but they'll send this thread drifting further out to sea.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: SleeperService on December 23, 2020, 02:08:58 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2020, 07:38:41 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Boris didn't 'miraculously' pull off an agreement with the EU.

Wholly to make him appear as the 'saviour of the day' and thus to try and avoid getting totally walloped in the next General Election.

We're being told fishing is the main sticking point along with other minor issues. One of those minor issues is the reason Brexit became a thing - Companies and Individuals using off-shore tax havens for commercial advantage.

Short term vanity or long term financial gains? I wonder which way the Tories will go.....

BOT More recent Humbrol paints made in China and elsewhere have a well deserved bad reputation. This is due to different colours being made in different types of paint base many of which won't mix well. But they're cheap to make and Humbrol's QC wasn't up to much. Add in the variation between batches as different compounds used to colour the paint react again and it's a mess.

I can't use acrylics - instant migraine trigger (which took a while to track down as the migraine happened up to 8 hours later). But Humbrol is no longer an issue. Go to   https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/ (https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/) and buy proper paint like what we used to get. I've not looked back since.

For a satin finish I swear by this stuff https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Spray-Munitorum-Varnish-Global-2019 (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Spray-Munitorum-Varnish-Global-2019). If you're after a dead matt finish for fabric etc. look at this https://culturehustle.com/collections/potions/products/coat-the-mattest-mattifying-protective-membrane-240ml (https://culturehustle.com/collections/potions/products/coat-the-mattest-mattifying-protective-membrane-240ml) they also offer a chrome paint and a very, very black black perfect for hiding the lack of interior detail. In both cases ensure the paint is fully dry, there is no decal solution present and then apply with 2-3 mist coats rather than one wet coat (which can soften the top layers of paint and then crack it as it dries out.

Final tip. Store paint cans lid down. SleeperDad has tins 40+ years old still workable, oh, and wipe the contact rims before putting the lid on. Dad always puts the lid paint side down on three nails bashed through a block of wood.

Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 23, 2020, 06:14:05 AM
Quote from: SleeperService on December 23, 2020, 02:08:58 AM

I can't use acrylics - instant migraine trigger (which took a while to track down as the migraine happened up to 8 hours later). But Humbrol is no longer an issue. Go to   https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/ (https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/) and buy proper paint like what we used to get. I've not looked back since.

Final tip. Store paint cans lid down. SleeperDad has tins 40+ years old still workable, oh, and wipe the contact rims before putting the lid on. Dad always puts the lid paint side down on three nails bashed through a block of wood.

First time I've heard of acrylics having such an effect. How long did it take too make the link ?

Totaly concur re Colourcoats. I mainly use acrylics but for some specific colours I turn to them,superb paints  :bow:. Also concur with making sure the lid rim is clean before putting it back on. Sometimes I'll drop the lid in cleaner/thinners whilst I'm using the pot just to make sure. I've still got lots of tins of Humbrol Metalcoat and Authentics which are still perfectly usable  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: SleeperService on December 23, 2020, 09:59:18 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 23, 2020, 06:14:05 AM
Quote from: SleeperService on December 23, 2020, 02:08:58 AM

I can't use acrylics - instant migraine trigger (which took a while to track down as the migraine happened up to 8 hours later).
First time I've heard of acrylics having such an effect. How long did it take too make the link ?


15 months plus 3 to make sure. The reaction spot tests pointed that way from the off but the specialists chased down other options until that was all that was left. I'd told them that fresh paint in a room meant I stayed clear for a few days otherwise I'd get a nose bleed at the start. Acrylic paint has solvents which evaporate leaving a shrunk-wrapped very thin film. It's not common but it is usually quite severe. Apparently about 5000 in the UK, most in family clusters (my sister is affected too) so not that widespread. Acetic acid does exactly the same (even as vinegar) to me. I have a deal with an arty neighbour. She does my varnishing and I cook anything with onions in it for her, she gets the same from the smell of them, another rare reaction but it works out OK.

'Take a little care of things and they'll last' was hammered into me at an early age. 
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 24, 2020, 06:08:43 AM
Fascinating. The specialists who work in this field must have to have the patience of the proverbial saint coupled with perseverance by the bucket load. Not easy on you whilst it was all going on, but glad they were able to confirm it in the end  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on December 24, 2020, 07:56:04 AM
So after chatting with the LMS guys, asking about what they had available, I went to the shop yesterday and bought 20 tinlets of the ones I use mostly. Most though had already gone so I grabbed what I thought would be useful. The ones that were left were mostly the gaudy bright coloured things which will probably still be there in 10-15 years time ----
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: SleeperService on December 24, 2020, 08:55:08 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 24, 2020, 06:08:43 AM
Fascinating. The specialists who work in this field must have to have the patience of the proverbial saint coupled with perseverance by the bucket load. Not easy on you whilst it was all going on, but glad they were able to confirm it in the end  :thumbsup:

Apparently I'll be a case study in the new text book on the subject my Lead Specialist is part-authoring. They were happier than me when I had my last visit, and I was over the moon. Our NHS is a marvellous thing and we MUST keep it and sort out the chronic overmanning in non-medical areas.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on December 24, 2020, 12:17:08 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 20, 2020, 06:16:35 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2020, 07:38:41 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Boris didn't 'miraculously' pull off an agreement with the EU.


I wouldn't be surprised at all Kit.

You guys have an inside line to Boris or something ?
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 24, 2020, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: kitnut617 on December 24, 2020, 12:17:08 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 20, 2020, 06:16:35 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2020, 07:38:41 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Boris didn't 'miraculously' pull off an agreement with the EU.


I wouldn't be surprised at all Kit.

You guys have an inside line to Boris or something ?


No, but I'm a died-on-the-wool cynic when it comes to UK politicians.

And he has, of course, done EXACTLY that.  :-\
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 25, 2020, 03:53:24 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 24, 2020, 12:51:57 PM
Quote from: kitnut617 on December 24, 2020, 12:17:08 PM
Quote from: NARSES2 on December 20, 2020, 06:16:35 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 19, 2020, 07:38:41 AM
It wouldn't surprise me if Boris didn't 'miraculously' pull off an agreement with the EU.


I wouldn't be surprised at all Kit.

You guys have an inside line to Boris or something ?


No, but I'm a died-on-the-wool cynic when it comes to UK politicians.

And he has, of course, done EXACTLY that.  :-\

I'm a died-in-the-wool-cynic about all politicians I'm afraid, and it still has to be signed off.

They couldn't even agree about the size of the thing, first it was 6,000 pages, then 2,000, now it's 1,500 and Boris has suggested we all read it after out Christmas Lunch !  :banghead: Whatever he's been drinking, I'll have a double  ;D

Having had to go through each morning's Official EU Journal, which I'm glad to see still have the same pink detailing and could run from 5/6 pages to 1,000's, the main text of the agreement is probably in 1,500 pages and then all the other specific details (individual fish species quotas etc) are probably in a 4,500 page annex. Wouldn't like to proof read that  :angel:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on December 25, 2020, 03:55:57 AM
Quote from: SleeperService on December 24, 2020, 08:55:08 AM
Our NHS is a marvellous thing and we MUST keep it and sort out the chronic overmanning in non-medical areas.

Totally agree. I was born into it's early years and have often said to people that it's this Nation's greatest achievement since the Second World War and possibly since before that.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2022, 08:38:52 AM
I've just seen this on a model railway forum, and it was coped from Britmodeller.

==========================

Humbrol Enamel Paints and Test Valley Models

We have received information from Hornby with regard to the current situation with their Humbrol branded enamel paints.  Their statement is as follows:

"The CLP (Classification, Labelling & Packaging) Regulation regularly assesses and occasionally reclassifies chemicals. "Meko", a popular anti-skinning agent, extensively used in the paint industry has been reclassified under CLP.  The change in classification resulted in the substance being phased out for supply to the consumer in Europe. The affected paint cannot be sold to the general public after 1st March 2022 under the REACH Regulation.

Customers are advised not to continue to use Humbrol enamels until further notice, and to seek alternative paints.


Test Valley Models has by law had to remove all Humbrol enamel paints from sale.

Humbrol are NOT offering retailers a credit or any form of reimbursement for stock purchased before 1st January 2022

As such from March 30th 2022 Test Valley Models will no longer sell any Humbrol products.

As Humbrol are part of the Hornby group of companies, Test Valley Models is also considering it's position in stocking ANY Hornby group related products.


==========================

So if this 'Meko' stuff is so ruddy dangerous, how come I'm still alive as I've been using Humbrol enamel since I was 11!?
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Nick on March 30, 2022, 09:28:09 AM
There are no Humbrol Enamels on the Airfix site, only the new acrylic range. This might also be why so many shops have removed their large Humbrol paint stands.

Revell enamels are still available which suggests they have already got to grips with a new formula that doesn't fall foul of the law. (It says Email paints which I have been told means Enamel).
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on March 30, 2022, 09:51:31 AM
Humbrol enamels disappeared from my LMS last year, I snapped up as many as I could buy before they ran out. So with Testors/ModelMaster enamels also disappearing there's not a lot anyone can do if they prefer enamels. XtraColor didn't even make it to Canada as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitbasher on March 30, 2022, 09:58:19 AM
News to me.  Was the change prenotified? 

Never been impressed with Revell enamels and the very small number of Humbrol acrylic pots where underwhelming.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: kitbasher on March 30, 2022, 09:58:19 AM

News to me.  Was the change prenotified? 


Don't be silly Dave, why would anyone at Hornby want to tell their customers ANYthing about what they're doing? We're only there to pay their bonuses.

What about Xtracolor though? There are ten pages of their tins still for sale? Maybe they don't use this 'Meko' stuff? Ah, that could be why they don't dry of course.....
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on March 30, 2022, 11:26:23 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: kitbasher on March 30, 2022, 09:58:19 AM

News to me.  Was the change prenotified? 


Don't be silly Dave, why would anyone at Hornby want to tell their customers ANYthing about what they're doing? We're only there to pay their bonuses.

What about Xtracolor though? There are ten pages of their tins still for sale? Maybe they don't use this 'Meko' stuff? Ah, that could be why they don't dry of course.....

The XtraColor enamels that I do have all came direct from Hannants, but I can't get any of it these days, can't be sent by mail apparently.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Gondor on March 30, 2022, 11:36:49 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on March 30, 2022, 11:26:23 AM

The XtraColor enamels that I do have all came direct from Hannants, but I can't get any of it these days, can't be sent by mail apparently.


I always buy their paint with a kit, not done that recently but it worked for me the last time I did that.

Gondor
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitbasher on March 30, 2022, 12:02:54 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2022, 11:09:23 AM
Quote from: kitbasher on March 30, 2022, 09:58:19 AM

News to me.  Was the change prenotified? 


Don't be silly Dave, why would anyone at Hornby want to tell their customers ANYthing about what they're doing? We're only there to pay their bonuses.

What about Xtracolor though? There are ten pages of their tins still for sale? Maybe they don't use this 'Meko' stuff? Ah, that could be why they don't dry of course.....

My bad, Kit  ;)

For years I've been using Humbrol matt enamels as bases for Xtracolor/Xtracrylix top coats and have been happy with the results.  No issues with Xtracolors to date.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on March 30, 2022, 03:28:34 PM
Quote from: Gondor on March 30, 2022, 11:36:49 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on March 30, 2022, 11:26:23 AM

The XtraColor enamels that I do have all came direct from Hannants, but I can't get any of it these days, can't be sent by mail apparently.


I always buy their paint with a kit, not done that recently but it worked for me the last time I did that.

Gondor

They used to do that with my orders too, but for the last couple of years, nothing comes overseas, postal services have banned it -----
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Gondor on March 31, 2022, 01:11:05 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on March 30, 2022, 03:28:34 PM
Quote from: Gondor on March 30, 2022, 11:36:49 AM
Quote from: kitnut617 on March 30, 2022, 11:26:23 AM

The XtraColor enamels that I do have all came direct from Hannants, but I can't get any of it these days, can't be sent by mail apparently.


I always buy their paint with a kit, not done that recently but it worked for me the last time I did that.

Gondor

They used to do that with my orders too, but for the last couple of years, nothing comes overseas, postal services have banned it -----

Not Good  :banghead:

Gondor
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Dizzyfugu on March 31, 2022, 02:06:57 AM
Disturbing news, because the Revell enamels are horrible (at least for me) to work with - and Humbrol was the last local alternative after Testors/ModelMaster disappeared a couple of yeras ago from the EU market.  :-\
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2022, 03:32:32 AM
It amazes me how the human race has survived these last 100 years so considering how long we've been living with all these DANGEROUS substances surrounding us..............

[Sarcasm mode off]
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on March 31, 2022, 06:19:55 AM
Must admit the only Humbrol enamels I regularly use are from the old Metalcoats range which are brilliant. I still use some Xtracolor where I can't get the equivalent colour in their Xtracrylic range (the Mediterranean Blues I recently used for example) but it's 90% acrylic nowadays.

I don't think you've legally been able to post enamels in the UK for a couple of years, even if hidden in kit boxes, but I'm not sure. Unfortunately this is something that's been on the cards for a good few years and if I'm honest I'm surprised it's taken this long to come to a head.

Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitnut617 on March 31, 2022, 08:01:02 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on March 31, 2022, 06:19:55 AM
Must admit the only Humbrol enamels I regularly use are from the old Metalcoats range which are brilliant. I still use some Xtracolor where I can't get the equivalent colour in their Xtracrylic range (the Mediterranean Blues I recently used for example) but it's 90% acrylic nowadays.

I don't think you've legally been able to post enamels in the UK for a couple of years, even if hidden in kit boxes, but I'm not sure. Unfortunately this is something that's been on the cards for a good few years and if I'm honest I'm surprised it's taken this long to come to a head.

It's an EU thing Chris, some legislation they brought out banning certain elements that are used in enamels.  As for the ModelMaster paint, some paint company in the EU bought the rights to it so it could be more obtainable in the EU, then, suddenly found they couldn't sell it in the EU. So instead of finding a buyer for it, they just closed the whole operation down, everywhere in the world too.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Howard of Effingham on March 31, 2022, 10:00:15 PM
I am really in the mire then.  :banghead:

My entire stash of paints is built on enamels and humbrol especially.

Still as Kit has said of himself that he'd been using them for years, so have I without much trouble.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: kitbasher on April 01, 2022, 12:19:11 AM
Checked out but (at a bazillion pages) not read the applicable EU legislation and it looks as though (as is so often with EU legislation) it was introduced into law with a pretty hefty transition period to full implementation. 

So, rather surprising then that inevitable termination of enamel hobby paint production hasn't been flagged up by the manufacturers.  And odd that Revell and Xtracolor so far seem unaffected.

The 'REACH' regulation (Reg 1907/2006 of 18 December 2006) is one of the EU laws carried over into UK law as part of the Brexit agreement.  Not that that makes a difference, I can't imagine Humbrol, etc, catering for separate EU and non-EU markets (too costly).
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: jcf on April 01, 2022, 12:50:40 AM
If you read this it appears as though someone decided it's bad and it was going to listed as such regardless of evidence to the contrary:
https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/2ff765e5-fb21-e81c-6e15-1aa191bb84bc

Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2022, 02:55:20 AM
Quote from: Howard of Effingham on March 31, 2022, 10:00:15 PM
I am really in the mire then.  :banghead:

My entire stash of paints is built on enamels and humbrol especially.

Still as Kit has said of himself that he'd been using them for years, so have I without much trouble.

Me too, but nobody's saying you can't use them, just that you can't buy them.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 01, 2022, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: Weaver on April 01, 2022, 02:55:20 AM

Me too, but nobody's saying you can't use them, just that you can't buy them.


It's a good thing for 'them' that they didn't because otherwise I'd be claiming all the money back on the UMPTEEN tins of Humbrol I've bought in the past, and just MY bill would be pretty serious, everyone else's as well would bankrupt them!

But if I can use them, what's the point of a regulation that says they can't be made any more?

Like many EU generated stuff, it makes NO sense at all.  :banghead:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 01, 2022, 04:17:22 AM
Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on April 01, 2022, 12:50:40 AM

If you read this it appears as though someone decided it's bad and it was going to listed as such regardless of evidence to the contrary:
https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/2ff765e5-fb21-e81c-6e15-1aa191bb84bc


I don't actually have enough life left to read and understand all of that, but I did find the bits that said the 'Meko' stuff wasn't too good for rats, rabbits, mice and other test creatures, but had no injurious effect on humans.

So that means Humbrol et al need only limit their supplies to rats, rabbits, mice and other creatures...........

It's about time these 'regulatory bodies' were held to account, they seem to be able to do what they damn well feel like!  :banghead:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Nick on April 01, 2022, 07:19:31 AM
This actually explains the various changes made by the paint firms to their products in the last 10 years. It must be why Humbrol have had so many problems with their range. All the issues with drying times and thinning of paint and spreadability etc.
But it does not excuse them for not having a replacement product ready to go at least 5 years ago.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Old Wombat on April 02, 2022, 12:22:18 AM
"Harmonising" ... A good way of saying "bureaucratic pedantry taken to extremes for the sake of bureaucratic consistency regardless of the truth". :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: zenrat on April 02, 2022, 01:54:31 AM
Harmonising would have been great if for example it resulted in German Autobahn speed limits on UK motorways.
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Gondor on April 02, 2022, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: Nick on April 01, 2022, 07:19:31 AM

But it does not excuse them for not having a replacement product ready to go at least 5 years ago.


Probably down to bean counters saying that the development costs are too much

Gondor
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: NARSES2 on April 02, 2022, 05:36:44 AM
Quote from: Gondor on April 02, 2022, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: Nick on April 01, 2022, 07:19:31 AM

But it does not excuse them for not having a replacement product ready to go at least 5 years ago.


Probably down to bean counters saying that the development costs are too much

Gondor

Until recently more likely down to their financial issues and the fact they didn't know if they'd still be operating in one years time, let alone 5.

Quote from: Old Wombat on April 02, 2022, 12:22:18 AM
"Harmonising" ... A good way of saying "bureaucratic pedantry taken to extremes for the sake of bureaucratic consistency regardless of the truth". :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

You been watching "Yes Minister", "Yes Prime Minister" recently  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Gondor on April 02, 2022, 08:10:41 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on April 02, 2022, 05:36:44 AM
Quote from: Gondor on April 02, 2022, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: Nick on April 01, 2022, 07:19:31 AM

But it does not excuse them for not having a replacement product ready to go at least 5 years ago.


Probably down to bean counters saying that the development costs are too much

Gondor


Until recently more likely down to their financial issues and the fact they didn't know if they'd still be operating in one years time, let alone 5.


Same difference in the end. No Money.

Gondor
Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: jcf on April 02, 2022, 11:29:47 AM
After digging around it appears that MEKO (derived from methyl ethyl ketone) became the go to
for alkyd resin paints over the last few decades because, unlike previous anti-skinning additives,
it is non-yellowing.

What folks refer to as "oil-based enamels" are alkyd resin paints and the resin is derived from
plant sourced drying oils i.e. soy, rape, linseed etc., drying oil paints don't actually dry so much
as they cure, in the presence of oxygen the oils polymerize and form a film. This leads to problems
with storage as the oil's natural tendency to cure forms a skin on top of the paint, left long enough
the entire mass will eventually go solid. Thus the need for anti-skinning inhibitors that evaporate
once the paint is applied. The pre-MEKO types, phenolic derived and others, work but the residue
that remains leads to yellowing of the paint film over time. Not an issue with dark colours but most
definitely an issue with white and other light tones, it's also probably why those old airliner models
folks built decades ago have gone ivory coloured, pre-MEKO formula paints.
;)

BHT is already used for similar anti-skinning purposes and is even cleared for use as a food ingredient
in certain applications, the only downside is that it will, over time, lead to some yellowing.


Title: Re: Humbrol Enamels
Post by: Weaver on May 07, 2022, 04:29:04 AM
Just seen this on Twitter for what it's worth:

Quote
Train Times Model Shop
@TrainTimesEB

Hello Twitter!! Humbrol enamels are back!! Following an email from Hornby this morning we are able to sell these paints once again!
We look forward to seeing you soon! #TMRGUK #avgeek #modelShop #Eastbourne

And in reply to a subsequent question:

Quote
Train Times Model Shop
@TrainTimesEB

A chemical in the had been banned, but the ban has been lifted, at least for now, nope, not 15p anymore, they will set you back £2.19 now!

Tweet thread here: https://twitter.com/TrainTimesEB/status/1522524050081333249?s=20&t=kaJS-Boa7Nupc3_05cYgsA