Started by AeroplaneDriver, February 03, 2023, 10:20:51 AM

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I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been brought up as an ideas post before and I'm hoping I didn't miss a prohibition of the topic on political grounds. 

Anyhoo, last night I went down an internet rabbit hole that ended with watching the grilling the UK Defence Select Committee gave the Chief of Air Staff for the RAF.  Any and all politics aside I found an interesting tidbit buried at the end.  When asking about potential for future UK air assistance to Ukraine along the lines of the recent pledge of Challenger MBTs one of the committee members asked about the feasibility of donating armed Hawks or Tucanos.  He also asked if there were any Tornadoes left in storage or if all were scrapped.  The answer was a bit evasive, but pointed out the the associated support required for Tornado would not make it feasible,  But surely Armed Hawks could be scraped together? 

Could make for an interesting Whif? 

I recently ordered a Mirage 2000D with the intent of making it a donated airframe in UAF service in early 2024. 

Other ideas?  F-16s seem likely if things progress to such a stage.  Tranche 1 Typhoons? 

Again, purely a discussion of speculative hardware please...
So I got that going for me...which is nice....


The possibility of sending A-10s has been reported in length on the web.
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.


Quote from: Mossie on February 03, 2023, 10:40:06 AMThe possibility of sending A-10s has been reported in length on the web.

Forgot that one.  I know they have requested them.  Relatively simple to fly and maintain too. 
So I got that going for me...which is nice....


The problem with sending Aircraft other than types already operated is the same as with the more advanced Tanks that Ukraine are to receive, but amplified possibly by an order of magnitude. Spares and support equipment are also an issue as well. If you are talking about the F-16, even if they are not being donated by the U.S. they have a veto on their produced equipment being passed on to a third party which in this case id Ukraine, so if the U.S. does not want them to get F-16's then they will not get F-16's. A simmilar thing happened when Israel was trying to sell it's Kfir aircraft to other countries because the aircraft used an American engine so the U.S. could veto any sale just as Germany has with the Leopard tank.

My Ability to Imagine is only exceeded by my Imagined Abilities

Gondor's Modelling Rule Number Three: Everything will fit perfectly untill you apply glue...

I know it's in a book I have around here somewhere....


It probably depends on your level of "whiffery", I guess, but I also thought about some more or less realistic ideas, just by checking what aircraft were (or soon will be) decommissioned and could be transfer to Ukraine.
The good point is: no need for them to have a lot of airframe lifetime remaining !
Bad point for them: except for F-16 or maybe A-10 / Typhoon, most of those options are not really easy to support.
But let's go anyway !

US made aircraft:
- F/A-18 Hornet: everyone is focusing on F-16 and A-10 (once again: the most realistic options from support POV), but why not old naval fighters ? They could be ex-Navy, ex-Kuwaiti, or even gifts from Spain for example ?
- AV-8B Harrier II+: I'd love to see Harrier flying under a new flag ! Yes, I know, that's not the easiest aircraft to handle ! But considering they are currently replaced by F-35B in the USMC and Italian Navy, why not ?
- F-4 Phantom: Only possibility I see, is ex-Greek Phantom, if they replace them sooner than expected. Very unlikely, but there's still a possibility to imagine an alternate story for that.
- F-15 Eagle: very very whiffy idea for now ! But, if the conflict established itself on a longer timeframe, or if the US really wants to push it, why not ? I'm more imagining F-15C than F-15E of course.

European made aircraft:
- Mirage 2000C: There's a bunch of outdated Mirage 2000C in good state in France, but with no missiles left. It is still very well possible to crash-integrate the MICA-IR AAM on them using the work recently done on the Mirage 2000D MLU. Even without that, I'm quite sure it could be a good platform to integrate HARM, JDAM or even Storm Shadow missiles, as soon as you accept minimal communication between aircraft and weapon (but the way they use HARM on MiG-29 shows that they have no problem with that). They could also fully operate GBU-12/GBU-49 bombs, but require a JTAC or UAV for laser designation.
- Mirage 2000EG: IIRC, Greece had already withdraw some (or all?) of its M2kEG, after the arrival of Rafale. Not sure of their operational states, but Greece still had some working missiles for those AC, while France still have plenty of spare parts available. So maybe something interesting, especially considering that those are compatible with Exocet missiles (which the 2000C isn't)
- Mirage 2000-5: few possibilities here. Qatar is still looking for someone to buy their second hand fleet (they are just asking way to much money for that) ; Greece if they replace them sooner than expected ; France, if the government agrees to decrease the Mirage 2000-5F fleet to help Ukraine.
- Mirage 2000D around a dozen airframe are not concerned by the current MLU. Technical status is unknown, and some airframe were/are probably used for spare parts, but it still a possibility.
- AMX: replaced by F-35A in Italy. Probably not in very good condition, but it's a pretty good CAS platform, easy to maintain and operate. I'd go for that !
- MB-339: I honestly don't know much about the aircraft status within AMI . Airframe availability ? Weapons integrated ?
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
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Does Turkey or South Korea have any Phantoms left in usable or repairable condition? That would make quite a whiff. Poland was still flying SU-22s until a few years ago. I wonder what ever happened to them. At least they would be an easier transition for the pilots compared to the latest model F-16s etc. A-10s would be interesting but I imagine the pilots would have to excel at below the tree tops flying to avoid S-300 SAM systems.
" Somewhere, between half true, and completely crazy, is a rainbow of nice colours "
Tophe the Wise


It's official! Biden gives Ukraine U.S. fighters to defend against Russia.  ;D  ;D  ;D  :tornado:
Modeling isn't just about how good the gluing or painting, etc. looks. It's also about how creative and imaginative you can be with a subject.


Erm, isn't that King Charles in the pic?
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)


Old Wombat

Yup. Another mark for ignorance & poor research (even if in a meme). :rolleyes:
Has a life outside of What-If & wishes it would stop interfering!

"The purpose of all War is Peace" - St. Augustine

veritas ad mortus veritas est


Well, they do look a little bit alike. It's the gray hair.
" Somewhere, between half true, and completely crazy, is a rainbow of nice colours "
Tophe the Wise


Ex Austrian Tranche 1 Typhoons - 9yes implausible due to support needed)
Denmark has some f-16s in storage if they get the nod


Quote from: kerick on February 24, 2023, 04:44:25 PMWell, they do look a little bit alike. It's the gray hair.

I was just about to say the same thing  ;D  Although I'm sure Charlie has grey hair  ;)
Decals my @r$e!


There's a lot of BAe Hawks in storage around the UK. Overhaul a bunch of them, bring them all up to T1A standard (AIM9L and gun capable) and that's a basic air defence. Add in some ground attack capability and they can support Ukraine's Army.

Not sure how serviceable they are but the training school at RAF Cosford has a number of Jaguars on hand.

It can't be long until Poland hands over some of its Mig-29s and Su-22s to Kyiv.
Other countries may follow suit once their air forces are re-equipped with new types.


Poland wanted to pass on its MiGs months ago but the U.S. had a hissy fit and I don't understand why.
Poly means many and ticks are a blood sucking arachnid.
" Somewhere, between half true, and completely crazy, is a rainbow of nice colours "
Tophe the Wise


There's as many views on this topic as there's writers on twitter, at least. The latest one I read made a quite good argument for the SAAB JAS39C based on the following principles:
- significantly more fieldworthy than any F-16 due to much less FOD prone, much less need for trained personnell (pilot plus one trained and four conscript technicians vs pilot plus eight trained techs for the F-16) and significantly better STOL.
- Cheaper to operate in fuel and consumables
- much better MMI and radar, plus the latest Link 16 version for interoperability with AWACS/JSTARS etc leading to an expected need for pilot training that would be a third in hours vs the F-16
- Meteor and Iris missiles integrated, which is the best the west has currently

From my point of view, all I know is that we're somewhat short of Gripens as it is back home. But sure - lets set up war factories and build them en grosse..
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!