Major Powers political shift

[Old Wombat]

This idea has just floated through the void between my ears, possibly because of the number of Soviet/Russian aircraft being built around the place, & it's probably been proposed in the past but;

"What If the USA was torn apart by a Bolshevik revolution in 1918/1919 & became a communist nation & the Russian Empire, possibly as a constitutional monarchy or non-socialist republic, survived as a capitalist nation/empire?"

Ideas, anyone?

[zenrat]

Border between the Union of American Socialist Republics and Imperial Canada is fortified leading to Lloyd George speechifying about "an Iron Curtain across North America.
All central and South American nations except Brazil and Argentina see the light and join the UASR.  Constant border skirmishes in the Amazon Jungle.
Imperial Russia expands its borders West to include Poland, Austria and Switzerland.
UASR back workers revolt in Germany.  Russia uses this as an excuse to send peacekeeping troops into Germany.
Trans European Alliance of Nations does the same.
War ensues.
Britain sits on the fence supplying weapons and banking services to both sides.

[NARSES2]

"What If the USA was torn apart by a Bolshevik revolution in 1918/1919 & became a communist nation & the Russian Empire, possibly as a constitutional monarchy or non-socialist republic, survived as a capitalist nation/empire?"

Ideas, anyone?

Is this timeline based on there being no World War One, or is it post World War One as we know it ?

Reason I ask is that one of the many plans floated after the February Revolution in Russia was for a Federal State, another was for a Constitutional Monarchy. Neither would have had Nicholas as head of state as he was a die hard believer in the "Divine Right of Kings". Alternatively you could have a constitutional monarchy founded post the 1905 revolution which might just give you a scenario in which Russia comes through the First World War and emerges as one of the victors and thus has a seat around the table at Versailles. That's the only way I can see anything like a stable Russia emerging from WWI.

The one that's always bumping around in my brain is what if Franz Joseph dies at the age of 70 in 1900, rather than at the age of 86 in 1916.  Franz Ferdinand becomes Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary and implements his federalisation plans thus preventing the final decline and fall of the Austro/Hungarian Empire.

Put the two together and you might not get WWI, or get it in a very different form. Possibly with the German Empire having to stand alone against a France determined to win back Alsace/Lorraine and its pride after 1870/71.

With no or at least a very different WWI the scenario you outline becomes more viable I feel. So what does Canada do whilst the American Revolution Mk II is going on ? Stand on the side lines and watch it unfurl or maybe it takes advantage of the situation and with help from G.B. takes control of a couple of the North Eastern States ? Maybe they are invited "in" by those states ? Perhaps you get a Second American Civil War between the left wing and right wing states ? Maybe 3 groupings of states ? Left, right and the West Coast. I'm not sure about an American Civil War Mk II as there wouldn't be the symbology of the Monarchy for the anti revolutionary forces to rally around as there was in Russia with the Whites, but I do feel you'd get a long period of upheaval at the least which outsiders would seek to take advantage of.

An Iron Curtain along the 49th Parallel steadily being reinforced whilst a Red USA steadily expands its territory and influence south through the already revolutionary lands of Central and S America certainly makes an interesting scenario. Or maybe, just maybe does a Red USA ally itself with a socialist France in its attempts to win back Alsace/Lorraine ?

Plenty of food for though there I feel.

[Old Wombat]

My idea was post-WW1, with Russia, although, maybe, not "winning", becoming an anvil against which the Austro-Hungarian/German armies are broken time-&-again.

My personal preference included the Duma not being quite so ineffectual, forcing Tsar Nikolai II to abdicate (either in 1905 or in 1915) & instituting a constitutional monarchy with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich (Nikolai's oldest surviving brother) being made Tsar.

[jcf]

Realistically speaking the necessary background for that to happen really isn't in place
at that time, especially in regards to the US. You'd have to go way back to be able to
set up conditions that might result in that sort of scenario, however in the US it's
highly doubtful that it would have happened with something analogous to the Russian
Revolution.

[Old Wombat]

In all honesty, this was just the beginnings of a mind game without any RW impetus, just an idea to play around with where the world may have gone under this scenario.

You know, "What If ...?"

[JayBee]

I just wish someone would tell me who Major Powers was/is, and what did he/she achieve ?

[zenrat]

Major Powers served under General Duties and had Corporal Punishment as his batman.

[NARSES2]

My idea was post-WW1, with Russia, although, maybe, not "winning", becoming an anvil against which the Austro-Hungarian/German armies are broken time-&-again.

My personal preference included the Duma not being quite so ineffectual, forcing Tsar Nikolai II to abdicate (either in 1905 or in 1915) & instituting a constitutional monarchy with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich (Nikolai's oldest surviving brother) being made Tsar.

Right. I didn't express myself properly I should of been clearer in saying that Russia found itself on the winning side and thus had a seat at Versailles. There are some interesting scenarios you can build around Tannenberg where initially there was some panic within the German High Command, but it's still difficult to see Russia winning.

If Nicholas either excepted the role of a constitutional monarch in 1905 (unlikely given both his, Alexander's and Rasputin's views) or abdicated and was replaced on the throne by another member of the family then you get the best chance of the "old" Russia surviving. Much latter then 1905 and it becomes very difficult to see.

Unrest in the US ? I really don't know anything like enough about US social or political history to comment much. Other than I know there were large labour movements in the US pre 1914 although they were closely linked to crime in a lot of cases.

Nonetheless it's a fascinating scenario and you now have me musing on those entrepreneurs and engineers/designers who would flee the US and set up shop in Canada or Europe ?    Or maybe never go there in the first place if unrest was rife ?

[Old Wombat]

As I said here, Chris;

In all honesty, this was just the beginnings of a mind game without any RW impetus, just an idea to play around with where the world may have gone under this scenario.

You know, "What If ...?"

The whole thing was just in the hopes of kicking off a fun though experiment without delving into the how, just accepting that it is & working from that.


If I sound a bit grumpy, by the way, it's because I am. I'm also confused as to when the Hell the world decided that everything had to make historical sense when trying to have a bit of fun!

There was once a time when you could say "This is the scenario, let's play with it!" & people would say "Sure!" & have fun playing in that odd little world.

All-of-a-sudden that's not how it is, everyone has to know how, when & why this scenario came into being - even here in a haven for "What-If ...?".


Chris, if you don't mind, could you delete the whole thread ... It's not fun any more.   Belay that request!

[PR19_Kit]

There was once a time when you could say "This is the scenario, let's play with it!" & people would say "Sure!" & have fun playing in that odd little world.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss! 

[Old Wombat]

Thanks, Kit!

[scooter]

There was once a time when you could say "This is the scenario, let's play with it!" & people would say "Sure!" & have fun playing in that odd little world.

All-of-a-sudden that's not how it is, everyone has to know how, when & why this scenario came into being - even here in a haven for "What-If ...?".

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss! 

I feel you.  I just had a former member of our esteemed group go all JMN in comment on the dA post about the Londthyrian Essex-class about how CVs 50-53 were never assigned names or started, and how I could have taken other Essexes (including the Franklin  ) as "options".  He's gonna have a big issue when I stick Hornets on my Essex and Audacious 

Its my 'verse, don't bring reality into it (which is also why I didn't comment on this thread initially).  And as for your suggestion?  Debs actually wins in 1920, becoming the first Socialist (and convicted "felon") President.

[Old Wombat]

Thank you, too, scooter!

[Old Wombat]

Amazing what a little support can do for a mood!

So, I'll try this again, only word it differently:

What If ...

Post-World War 1, the USA became a quasi-democratic Communist state (ie: only various factions of the Communist ideology being eligible to elected office), while Russia became a Westminster-based bicameral democratic constitutional monarchy, with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich Romanov replacing his brother, Nikolai II, as Tsar ...

Discuss?