Touchy Topics ---Is there a line?

TheChronicOne · August 31, 2016, 02:25:43 PM

I've scoured the rules post and "be nice" post to see if anything is mentioned about what I'm getting at and didn't find anything. I guess it's ok, but I figure it would be more prudent to actually ask and gather more opinions than just my own: I don't at all condone or support what the Nazis did or were about, but that doesn't stop me from making a Luftwaffe 109... that said, just how far should this liberty be extended(more on this in just a second, I promise)?

The reason I ask: the other day I came across some stuff on ISIS and their "military." Videos show ISIS fighters w/ commandeered Syrian Air Force jets. I figured, they'll do little to nothing to them and just call it good, but no, they apparently came up with their own unique camo paint scheme livery with (minimal) markings and the ISIS "flag" on the top of the fin. Footage of them wheeling the plane(s) into a hangar and actively spraying over Syrian scheme with their own is shown and they even hop in the planes and taxi around. But anyway.. a unique couple of planes in these videos. Not quite a whif but lies in that grey area, know what I mean? I'd like to do one.. (and park it next to a North Korean Mig 29 I would like to do in the future)

That said, it got me to thinking about "hate" groups and the like. I'm assuming it would be OK to do an isis build and post it here but, would it be? Nazis were far worse, but that was so long ago. ISIS is NOW and the wounds are fresh. Further, I got to thinking.. "hate" groups like the Klan, etc.. does anything go or would a Klan P 47 be off limits? Can't stand the bastards but If someone told me they got their hands on an airplane and decorated with their stuff as if they were trying to create some air force I'd want to have a look.

That's it, I guess..a touchy subject that I thought I'd ask about before starting to throw out ideas that might offend or make folks uneasy.

For the curious, two vids of the ISIS plane(s) Oh and by the way, what are those??:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl4orHv7IiE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlUrTFSGhv8

PR19_Kit · August 31, 2016, 05:38:34 PM

AFAICS the smaller jet is an L-39 Albatross, and early on in the second vid there's a late model Mig-21 too.

sandiego89 · August 31, 2016, 06:04:41 PM

Touchy indeed. For me the line is crossed when we get into glamorization and the nature of the display. Remember subjects can be highly subjective and for some the memories can be much fresher or closer, and I think if your inner senses tell you not to do something, that is probably worth listening too. Time is not the only factor.

As for modeling, I see a WWII German vehicle, a captured Syrian aircraft in ISIS marking, technicals, pirates, civil war (pick any side) a GI Cobra tank on an Imperial Death Star (ie: the "bad" guys) as legitimate modeling subjects. It is to show a legitimate historical fact or close enough for WHIF purposes if we avoid the politics and glamorization. We are just modeling hardware. The line is crossed (again just for me) when we get into glamorization. I see no need for a Klan aircraft or otherwise. No historical precedence and would be in poor taste.

Captain Canada · August 31, 2016, 06:38:35 PM

If they're over spraying the markings with their own than it's not a whif

TheChronicOne · August 31, 2016, 08:30:50 PM

Quote from: sandiego89 on August 31, 2016, 06:04:41 PM
Touchy indeed. For me the line is crossed when we get into glamorization and the nature of the display. Remember subjects can be highly subjective and for some the memories can be much fresher or closer, and I think if your inner senses tell you not to do something, that is probably worth listening too. Time is not the only factor.

As for modeling, I see a WWII German vehicle, a captured Syrian aircraft in ISIS marking, technicals, pirates, civil war (pick any side) a GI Cobra tank on an Imperial Death Star (ie: the "bad" guys) as legitimate modeling subjects. It is to show a legitimate historical fact or close enough for WHIF purposes if we avoid the politics and glamorization. We are just modeling hardware. The line is crossed (again just for me) when we get into glamorization. I see no need for a Klan aircraft or otherwise. No historical precedence and would be in poor taste.

Thank you.. what you have said has helped me, indeed. I agree with everything you have said and appreciate the guidance and advice. Won't be no klan or black panthers builds coming, to be sure. lol

TheChronicOne · August 31, 2016, 08:35:08 PM

Quote from: Captain Canada on August 31, 2016, 06:38:35 PM
If they're over spraying the markings with their own than it's not a whif

Cut and dried! I like it.. (or is it dried and cut?)

Thanks...I'm almost embarrassed now having even asked the initial question but.. I guess I got carried away. The mind runs wild sometimes. I even went so far as "gangs" ... I.E. what would a "crips" F-100 look like? A "Bloods" Sherman tank?

Ehhh.... what would a "Republic of Wal-Mart" F-4 look like?

Tophe · August 31, 2016, 08:41:07 PM

It seems what you call ISIS in English is what we call Daesh in French, all right.
Here in France, a lot of hate happens against any Daesh celebration or like, and maybe some French what-if modeller (raised by the medias) would feel offended by your model. As far as I am concerned, I am not offended. Personally, I would not build it, but just as I refuse to build B-29 warbirds that killed 100,000 civilians and babies in Hiroshima, in Tokyo (a matter of glory for our medias). I feel torn, I feel bad, even against ourselves, but not hateful.

TheChronicOne · August 31, 2016, 10:15:25 PM

Quote from: Tophe on August 31, 2016, 08:41:07 PM
It seems what you call ISIS in English is what we call Daesh in French, all right.
Here in France, a lot of hate happens against any Daesh celebration or like, and maybe some French what-if modeller (raised by the medias) would feel offended by your model. As far as I am concerned, I am not offended. Personally, I would not build it, but just as I refuse to build B-29 warbirds that killed 100,000 civilians and babies in Hiroshima, in Tokyo (a matter of glory for our medias). I feel torn, I feel bad, even against ourselves, but not hateful.

Understood, and thank you. From what I've seen in various places, you aren't alone.

Dizzyfugu · September 01, 2016, 12:29:01 AM

I'd be very careful with symbolism and especially "hot" topics like the IS. In this case, IMHO any visual representation of the topic - even as a model kit - is actually propaganda support, just like the vids (and, honestly, even posting the links here). You support terrorists and religious/political hardliners through this, willingly or not.

It's pretty much the same discussion as swastikas on German WWII aircraft models, and while there's no hot conflict to be connected to this symbolism, there are still many people around who use it for (dumb and homophobic) propaganda, not only in Germany.

Snowtrooper · September 01, 2016, 02:30:36 AM

Context is everything.

Daesh is an existing entity that obviously has gotten its hands on fighter jets, so building the real jets or whiffing some is not so different than doing the same with North Korea (which reportedly is doing just as horrible things, also in the present day). I don't see this as propaganda or glamourization, it's not like you would be portraying a group of Daesh child soldiers executing prisoners or something - planes and vehicles are mostly "neutral" subjects, unless you have hostages tied to a tank as "ablative armour" or something like that.

Now, a Klan P-47 taken out of context would come out as something weird, or outright tasteless if used to promote the ideology, but would totally fit in all its absurdity if built as a part of a "Gangland" or "Post-apocalyptic" GB.

WW2 or "1946" German vehicles are a different thing. The Nazis actually had army, navy and air force and had the war continued (or if they had won the war) would still have had those (even in the present day or the distant future). And they did use the swastika as their symbol; it's not glorifying anything if used in context of a real or whiffy plane, leaving it out would actually be whitewashing. Saying it's glorifying (without taking the context into account) is silly, you can be interested in the planes themselves, or the paint schemes, etc. without subscribing to their ideology. On the other hand if you had a cabinet full of nothing but German models surrounding a huge portrait of Hitler, with some select quotes from Mein Kampf printed in blackletter among them, now that would take some explaining.

perttime · September 01, 2016, 04:04:55 AM

Quote from: Snowtrooper on September 01, 2016, 02:30:36 AM
Context is everything.

...

Yeesss - but it isn't quite that simple either, at least if you show it on the internet.

Anything that you put on the internet can be copied and put into a different context.

That is why I'd be a bit careful about producing things with participants in current conflicts.

Captain Canada · September 01, 2016, 04:10:12 AM

I've always been a fan of build what you want, the way you want. Sure it's easy to offend, especially in the world that we have created, where everybody is a victim. But, it's easy to spot somat that's been done to offend, as opposed to somat that's been done unintentionally.

Dizzyfugu · September 01, 2016, 05:18:08 AM

Quote from: perttime on September 01, 2016, 04:04:55 AM
Quote from: Snowtrooper on September 01, 2016, 02:30:36 AM
Context is everything.

...
Yeesss - but it isn't quite that simple either, at least if you show it on the internet.

Anything that you put on the internet can be copied and put into a different context.

That is why I'd be a bit careful about producing things with participants in current conflicts.

That's the point.

DogfighterZen · September 01, 2016, 06:22:44 AM

Probably there shouldn't be a line because, after all, any armed vehicle is a killing machine, right? Aren't we glorifying death by building military models?
If the US bombed and killed so many in WWII, didn't the Japanese and nazis do the same? I don't think numbers count, any war and it's outcome is a shame for us all... But that won't make our interest in these killing machines disappear, that's why we all build them.
Probably a lot of people wouldn't like to see an IS model in our days, like i imagine building an AXIS model would be frowned upon in an allied country back in WWII... IMHO, we shouldn't be thinking of ideologies in modelling, but i agree that context would mean a lot if you were to present such a type of build, at least to make sure that you explain that it's only building a model, not glorifying any kind of Human action...
Still, i believe that if you build a crashed IS plane, surrounded by US Marines, with a bloody pilot in the cockpit, you won't get much criticism for it, but if you just do a normal build and presentation, then i believe you'd better get ready for some hate cause, no matter how you explain it, like perttime and dizzy said, it could be seen or used by some as propaganda and you can end up in a very uncomfortable position.

Just my 2 cents...

Old Wombat · September 01, 2016, 06:52:59 AM

Of course, if he builds a dio of a crashed ISIS/Daesh/ISIL plane or destroyed AFV, he may have to look out for IED's in the driveway!