avatar_kitnut617

Kitnut617's Precision Guided Tall Boy

Started by kitnut617, April 28, 2009, 07:59:10 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

kitnut617

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on April 28, 2009, 04:30:50 PM
While browsing Britmodeller I discovered Robert (aka Kitnut) has been holding out on us.  He posted a rather interesting WHIF Weapon to a TSR2 discussion over there that really needs to be shared here. 


I would never have considered adapting the wings and seeker module from the GBU-15 HOBOS to the 12,000 pound Tall Boy bomb.  It certainly looks the part.  Pure genius Robert!

Links to the other images that Robert has on-line in his TSR2 WIP topic here on WHIF in the TSR2 Discussion Forum and also in his TSR2 WIP topic on the Airfix Tribute forum.

Uh-Oh! You rumbled me Jeffry   :lol:  but seriously, the idea sort of just came to me one night (one of those times when you're sort of asleep and then you're fully awake with this idea which wouldn't go away).  617 Sqn. and the big bombs are significant to me because my Dad served with 617 from 1944 to 1946 (coincides when the big bombs appeared) and I've a number of projects lined up with these two things in mind.  One was when the 1/72 Airfix TSR2 kit became available, and I got the two XtraDecal sheets that Hannants put out at the same time, I was very pleased to see a 617 Sqn. scheme included. And the fact that 617 Sqn. is synonymous to very accurate delivery of bombs

When I started the TSR2 I had decided that it was to be a late variant in the twilight of it's career and used on some very special missions, routing out high profile targets sunk deep in the ground, deeper than what intelligence had thought they were.  But what to use ? my first thoughts were to use a 'dusted off' Tallboy but then got to thinking about it and the developments in delivering precision ordnance and looking through the spares box found the two GBU-15's I hadn't used on anything.  So I read up on this bomb and found it was TV guided, well this was sort of what I wanted, and then after reading about Tallboys and Grand Slams (and T12's) I suddenly thought that the two systems would go together quite well.  I decided to crop the tail cone off the Tallboy (a Paragon conversion) as the original length was designed into it to improve the accuracy by aerodynamics based on 1940's technology, the fins having pitch to spin the bomb (also to stop tumbling) but it was after reading that at it's designed dropping altitude the bomb would hit the ground at well over the speed of sound, but never achieved that because the Lancaster couldn't get it to the required height.  The Lincoln could though but that was a little late for the war, later the USAF (or was it USAAF still) experimented with them using a B-29 which could get it up the the altitude. I thought that one delivered by a modern jet from way up at a speed already close to the speed of sound would be just what was needed for really deep bunkers plus the fact that with newer metal materials it could withstand the impact at the elevated speeds, you would have quite a weapon.  

So my thoughts were that if I put the wings and head of the GBU-15 onto the Tallboy the tailcone wouldn't need to be so long because it could be steered and didn't rely purely on it's aerodynamic form for accuracy, plus it would fit into the TSR2 bomb bay easier, at least semi-conformal.  When I get around to the backstory I'll explain why 617 wasn't in on the first few days of GW1.

Here's a couple more pics, first one as it will fit inthe bomb bay, next one compared to the GBU-15 and a few others
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

PR19_Kit

Robert,

Awesome thinking, I like it!  :lol:

The 'Guided Tallboy' and the TSR2 are just so logical.

When my daughter was on her first posting to Lossiemouth I took 'the guided tour' from her SATCO there (Senior Air Traffic Control Officer.....) and we went via 617 Sqdn's Ops Centre. They have an Upkeep bomb, a Tallboy and a Grand Slam outside the building, and each one is AWESOME! The Grand Slam was standing on its nose when I visited (I believe its lying down now) and it just boggled the mind.
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

kitnut617

Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 29, 2009, 02:25:29 AM
Robert,

Awesome thinking, I like it!  :lol:

The 'Guided Tallboy' and the TSR2 are just so logical.

When my daughter was on her first posting to Lossiemouth I took 'the guided tour' from her SATCO there (Senior Air Traffic Control Officer.....) and we went via 617 Sqdn's Ops Centre. They have an Upkeep bomb, a Tallboy and a Grand Slam outside the building, and each one is AWESOME! The Grand Slam was standing on its nose when I visited (I believe its lying down now) and it just boggled the mind.

I think I'd like to see that someday Kit, question though, do these bombs follow 617 Sqn. around to where ever they are stationed, I find it kind of odd that they would be displayed on an airfield way up there.  When my Dad was with 617 he was stationed at Woodhall Spa which is where all the Grand Slam bombs were used from, not at Scampton as many publications say.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

PR19_Kit

#3
Quote from: kitnut617 on April 29, 2009, 05:52:53 AM
I think I'd like to see that someday Kit, question though, do these bombs follow 617 Sqn. around to where ever they are stationed, I find it kind of odd that they would be displayed on an airfield way up there.  When my Dad was with 617 he was stationed at Woodhall Spa which is where all the Grand Slam bombs were used from, not at Scampton as many publications say.

Robert,

As far as I know yes, they do. The squadron only had a 'boiler-plate' Upkeep bomb until recently, but I believe the one they have now is the real thing, hopefully empty! I'd agree the various references do seem to be a bit muddled about where 617 started their various missions from, Scampton is just SO well known it seems to be the default airfield for them.

I know it's a long way from you, but Lossie is a fascinating place to visit should you ever get the chance, and amazingly they seem to accept visitors there who ask beforehand. I'm very lucky that my daughter was there for three of her operational postings and I've spent hours in the tower and the threshold caravan there. Of course it's wall-to-wall Tornadoes as there are 4 squadrons of them at Lossie, one of them, XV(R), being the largest squadron in the RAF at present. There's a small flight of 202 Sqdn. SAR Sea Kings but otherwise everything there are 'Mighty Fins'.



I dunoo who the bloke posing in the piccie is, I nicked it off the Web.  :smiley:
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Weaver

Hmmm - thinking some more about the speed issue, a TSR.2 could carry one of these to what? 40 thousand, 50 thousand feet and then drop it in a Mach.2 dive...... That's gotta hurt when it hits...... :blink:
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

NARSES2

That photo looks like it should be on the cover of some rock bands album only Rad would have heard of  ;D
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

kitnut617

Thanks for starting this thread Jeffry, I wouldn't have thought that it would be as much an interest.

Robert
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

NARSES2

Didn't Scampton have a Tall Boy or Grand Slam on display that every one assumed was a dummy, and when they came to move it assumed it was filled with concrete because of the weight ? After peering inside they realised it was live  :drink: Hope it's not just an "old wives tale"

Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

kitnut617

I'm not sure where Scampton comes into the equation, possible where 617 was when they went on the Dam Buster raid, but my Dad who served in 617 from 1944 to 1946 told me he was always stationed at Woodhall Spa.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

PR19_Kit

Robert,

617 was formed at Scampton in 1943, and moved to Conningsby at the end of the year, some months after the Dams raid. They moved to Woodhall Spa in 1944, which stacks up with when your Dad was with them.
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

kitnut617

If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

NARSES2

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on May 05, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
IWhen I was living on Adak we had a similar experience with sixteen 1000 pound bombs being "found" laying in the tundra next to the airfield.  Fortunately they were not fuzed but it appears that the weapons had been dropped off at a dispersal pad in preparation for a mission that was either scrubbed or the war ended.  The bombs sat in the tundra for over twenty years before they were found again.  The EOD lads transported the bombs two at time to the demolition range and destroyed them.  These controlled detonations resulted in eight man-made thunderclaps over the span of several hours.  The low cloud ceiling helped to reflect the concussion and sound of the explosions back towards the airfield and the housing areas where it was felt as well as heard even though the demolition range was several miles away. 

I didn't realise it was possible to actualy "live" in the Aleutian's Jeff, exist yes, live no. I've a book "The Thousand Mile War" on the Aleutians campaign and my admiration for the conditions those guys put up with is similar to that I have for Arctic Convoy vets.  :thumbsup:

Chris
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

BillSlim

Quote from: NARSES2 on May 05, 2009, 02:56:11 AM
Didn't Scampton have a Tall Boy or Grand Slam on display that every one assumed was a dummy, and when they came to move it assumed it was filled with concrete because of the weight ? After peering inside they realised it was live  :drink: Hope it's not just an "old wives tale"



I've read that story somewhere. IIRC they had to move the bomb when the mess was being rebuilt, or something similar and indeed it was a live bomb.
'Fire up the Quattro!'
'I'm arresting you for murdering my car, you dyke-digging tosspot! - Gene Hunt.

rickshaw

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on May 05, 2009, 04:13:49 AM
Quote from: NARSES2 on May 05, 2009, 02:56:11 AMDidn't Scampton have a Tall Boy or Grand Slam on display that every one assumed was a dummy, and when they came to move it assumed it was filled with concrete because of the weight ? After peering inside they realised it was live  :drink: Hope it's not just an "old wives tale"

I remember reading about that incident a year or so back.  I do not remember what station had the bomb on display, but it was just as you described with the weapon being prepared to be moved to another location when it was discovered to contain Torpex instead of concrete.  The bomb was then transported to a demolition range where it was subjected to a controlled detonation that still managed to rattle the windows for miles around.  Hard to imagine that the paper trail on a live round would get lost or misplaced to allow that bomb to sit there as a gate guard for all of those years before rediscovering it.

The worse thing about this episode was that not only was the bomb still filled with explosive, it was fused as well and the fuses were over 40 years old!  Having done EOD, I can only shudder at the idea of this weapon having been mishandled over the years (apparently it was moved several times from base to base) and then redisplayed in the vertical position.   I take my hat off to the brave blokes who defused it and then transported it to the disposal range.   Not a job I'd particularly have liked.   Make an interesting tale in the Mess though, being the last man to have "blown" a Grand Slam.
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

kitnut617

#14
I have to confess --- this isn't new.  I've been re-reading my copy of BSP-Hypersonics, Ramjets & Missiles and I've got to Chapter 7 Air-to-Surface Guided Weapons, and on page 90 there's a couple of paragraphs about 'Journey's End and Blue Boar.  It say's that the weapon of choice during the last year of the war against Capital Ships was the Tallboy but even then they still had to have a direct hit for it to do anything.  So it seems that Barnes Wallis was looking into this at the end of the war and was working on what was called a 'Line Controlled Tallboy (radio controlled), which had enlarged tail fins and vertical fins on the nose but these were about 50% too small to properly guide the bomb.  The next paragraph then goes on to say that they started to look at TV guidance after examining German guided bombs which had this technology and tried to apply it to the Line Controlled Tallboy but by 1947 the project was declared obsolete.  This led to Blue Boar which was another TV guided bomb of around 5000 lbs.

After reading the book some time ago I can honestly say I don't remember reading anything about this so I was astonished to read this again, and all I can say I must have had it subconsciously stored in my mind when I came around to making my bunker buster.  So it wasn't a stoke of genius after all, sorry folks.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike