avatar_Cliffy B

F-10 (F3D) Skyknight

Started by Cliffy B, August 18, 2010, 03:50:56 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Cliffy B

You know I always had the idea to turn a Skynight into a attack jet.  Tell me it doesn't look like an early, straight winged version of an A-6 Intruder!  The follow on "Missileer" would of have been great too!  I've never been able to get a hold of a 1/72 kit of either though.  Those rocket pods sound like a neat idea.  Wonder how they fair on a carrier based aircraft?

So many ideas....
"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."
-Tom Clancy

"Radial's Growl, Inline's Purr, Jet's Suck!"
-Anonymous

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."
-Anonymous

famvburg


     It makes me think of a jet powered Skyraider. I have one in the stash to be done in USAF SEA camo & armed like a Skyraider.


Quote from: Cliffy B on August 18, 2010, 03:50:56 PM
You know I always had the idea to turn a Skynight into a attack jet.  Tell me it doesn't look like an early, straight winged version of an A-6 Intruder!  The follow on "Missileer" would of have been great too!  I've never been able to get a hold of a 1/72 kit of either though.  Those rocket pods sound like a neat idea.  Wonder how they fair on a carrier based aircraft?

So many ideas....

Jeffry Fontaine

#2
Quote from: Cliffy B on August 18, 2010, 03:50:56 PMYou know I always had the idea to turn a Skyknight into a attack jet.  Tell me it doesn't look like an early, straight winged version of an A-6 Intruder!  The follow on "Missileer" would of have been great too!  I've never been able to get a hold of a 1/72 kit of either though.  Those rocket pods sound like a neat idea.  Wonder how they fair on a carrier based aircraft?

So many ideas....

I can not imagine any real issues with wingtip mounted fuel tanks or rocket launching pods on the Skyknight.  There were other aircraft of a similar size such as the Banshee and Panther that operated with wingtip mounted fuel tanks that did not have any problems.  I had actually considered a WHIF suggestion for the F9F Panther with wingtip mounted rocket pods but decided to not go through with it since the Panther is so much smaller in comparison to the Banshee and Skyknight.  

I think the Skyknight would look a lot better with wingtip mounted fuel tanks or the Scorpion rocket pods.  

Adding additional stores pylons under the wings for bombs and rockets would be good.  Maybe an attack version of the Skyknight for interdiction missions over North Korea (Korean War) or attacking the Ho Chi Minh trail during the Vietnam War.  
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

jcf

#3
The basic F3D only had two pylons, one on each inboard wing section, the aircraft modified to carry Sparrows were
the only aircraft with outer section pylons.
After looking through the Ginter on the Skynight one thing stands out, no photo of a folded wing F3D
with any stores mounted on the outer wing panel, this includes the Sparrow carriers.
Combined with the F3D ordnance chart (attached) it tells me that the F3D outer wing sections and wingfold were not
stressed for heavy stores carriage.



The thing to bear in mind about the F-89 is that it was designed to carry large wing-tip pods, but even then the
thin wing with heavy tip masses caused major problems with aero-elasticity that led to the grounding of the Scorpions
and forced Northrop engineers to redesign the wing.

The FH2-2 was also designed and stressed for its 200-gallon tip tanks. Ditto the F9F series.

Adding more stores pylons or big wingtip masses would require massive redesign ... which leads into my next post.  ;D

Jon
"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

jcf

#4
F3D-3 Part 1

When Douglas proposed the swept wing F3D-3 variant of the Skynight they also proposed an
entire suite of stores based on their aerodynamic fuel store design.





"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

jcf

#5
F3D-3 Part 2

Being thorough as ever the Douglas team did not neglect the photo recce mission,
they also kept the ground attack and air-to-air bomber intercept mission in mind.
The system design also included interchangeable noses for various missions.

So I suppose one could apply these F3D-3 proposals to the earlier Skynight. ;D ;D





"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

philp

Revell,
Please rerelease the Matchbox Skynight :thumbsup:

I have one in the stash but am missing one of the engine panels (and the instructions so not sure if it is a front or back part, think back).  I actuall would like to make 2 RW versions, Korean War nightfighter and USMC as used in Vietnam.  But, that swept wing design is calling.  If I could just get 2 more kits (or 3, or 4...).
Phil Peterson

Vote for the Whiffies

Jeffry Fontaine

Jon,

Thanks for the technical details and history.  I find the swept wing version quite interesting as you can see the family resemblance to the A-3 Skywarrior and B-66 Destroyer in that three view drawing from the Ginter book. 

Though for a WHIF, the thought of adding those huge rocket pods from the Scorpion is still attractive and reality be damned! ;^)
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

jcf

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on August 19, 2010, 12:28:25 PM

Though for a WHIF, the thought of adding those huge rocket pods from the Scorpion is still attractive and reality be damned! ;^)

Non-folding wing in USAF markings following the complete failure of the F-89 program.  ;D

Belgian markings an alternative to the Clunk.  :thumbsup:
"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Jeffry Fontaine

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on August 19, 2010, 01:01:50 PMNon-folding wing in USAF markings following the complete failure of the F-89 program.  ;D

Belgian markings an alternative to the Clunk.  :thumbsup:

USAF operation is a good call.  Granted my first thoughts were just about the rocket pods and not really about the operator.  As a bomber interceptor operating in adverse weather or at night where the two man crew would be ideal for such missions. 
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Cliffy B

All of this talk about proposed versions of the Skynight got me thinking about its short history.  The plane apparently had poor carrier handling when it came to landings and takeoffs.  What exactly caused this?  Engines?, Wing design?  What?  Was this an issue that Douglas addressed in any of the subsequent concept models?  I've been wanting to include it in my alt history as a heavy bomber but only if I can get around the poor carrier bird problem.  Any thoughts guys?  :unsure:
"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."
-Tom Clancy

"Radial's Growl, Inline's Purr, Jet's Suck!"
-Anonymous

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."
-Anonymous

Jeffry Fontaine

The available thrust from the two Westinghouse J34-WE-34 turbojets rated at 3,250 lb. thrust each in the F3D-1 and F3D-2, or the two Westinghouse J46-WE-36 engines rated at 3,400 lb thrust each in the F3D-3 along with the maximum takeoff weight of 27,362 lb.  From that you could rightly assume that the engines were a contributing factor to the performance issues experienced with the Skyknight.  Maybe a WHIF version could be paired with a pair of J52s as used in the later versions of the A-4 Skyhawk to get around that problem?  Another must have is ejection seats for the crew since the original Skyknight was not equipped with this feature and relied on an escape chute through the bottom of the aircraft for aircrew egress in an emergency.   
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

jcf

Actually the F3D-2 carrier suitability test notes reproduced in the Ginter rate both the airframe and engine as 'acceptable'.
The biggest criticism is poor forward visibility due to the shape of the windscreen panels on the pilot's side and view to stbd.
being cluttered by the radar scope etc.

The XF3D-1 suitability test notes were more negative with the majority of the comments concerning the landing gear,
and aside from overly bouncy oleos, the majority of the criticism revolves around the fact that it was a tricycle gear
layout.
Among the recommendations:
"That consideration be given to a tail-wheel-type alighting gear with a variable height tailwheel
strut, for this and future carrier-type aircraft to overcome the deficiencies encountered in the
subject tests and inherent in the use of nosewheel-type alighting gear in carrier operations."


In udda woids : "We don wan no stinkin' trikes!"  ;D  :blink:

VC-4 took the Skynight to sea during cruises in 1952 and 1953.

Jon

p.s. as the J46 never materialized a production F3D-3 would definitely need a different engine.
The J52 is shorter in length abd slightly larger in diameter than than the J46. BTW the F3D-2
nacelles were sized for the J46.

p.s.s. "When the XF3Ds were at Muroc they were tested by the Air Force, and the discussions were
made to equip the Skynight with afterburners to meet the Air Force specifications. However, the
Air Force decided to live with the F-94 and develop the F-89."
"Conspiracy theory's got to be simple.
Sense doesn't come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever's supposed to be behind the
conspiracy."
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Jeffry Fontaine

#13
Found a drawing of the F-89 Scorpion with the wing tip mounted rocket pods and with a little bit of editing I managed to copy and paste to the F-10 drawing.  While the pods are not to exact scale they do give you a good idea of what the SkyKnight would look like with those huge pods attached at the wing tips.  Maybe the USAF version could have a pair of AIR-2 Genie rockets on the under wing stores pylons? 


***Some of the details in the attached drawing were obscured because I had to re-size the image to allow uploading.  It was larger than the 256kb limit :^( ***
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Daryl J.

Khemedi.   To complement their Supermarine Attackers.  :party: