Lightning & the RCAF/CAF Query

Started by Cobra, December 05, 2010, 12:15:38 AM

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Cobra

Hey Guys, just Curious, Can Anyone Tell me if the English Electric Lightning had Ever been Considered for RCAF/CAF Service during it's Service Life? I have some Ideas & Was Considering Maybe making a Lightning as a 'Defender of the Great white North',aka Canada. Just Wondering, Can Anyone give me some Input,Please? Thanks for looking.Dan

PR19_Kit

You'd either need a lot of them, spaced at intervals across the 'Great White North', or a lot of tankers or a way of carrying more overload tanks!

The Frightening was notorious for its short legs, even in F6 form with the overwing tanks, and was only just credible as an air defence for our little island, let alone a place as vast as Canada! Mind you, NOTHING could out-climb or out-run it at the time.....
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rickshaw

They were considered for Oz, in the same competition which was won by the Mirage III.  The other contender was the F-104.  All three weren't great on legs but had excellent performances.
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Weaver

Wern't the Canadian F-104s intended mainly for a NATO role in Europe? If so, would the Lightning have been suitable for that?


Quote from: PR19_Kit on December 05, 2010, 12:50:15 AM
You'd either need a lot of them, spaced at intervals across the 'Great White North', or a lot of tankers or a way of carrying more overload tanks!

The Frightening was notorious for its short legs, even in F6 form with the overwing tanks, and was only just credible as an air defence for our little island, let alone a place as vast as Canada! Mind you, NOTHING could out-climb or out-run it at the time.....

As an aside, have you noticed the curious post-war trend for Britain to make great aircraft for defending Germany with, which Germany didn't buy? Hunter, Lightning, Harrier: all ideal for defending a land border where short warnings, high climb rates and pre-emptive strike survival are all critical.... :unsure:
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The Wooksta!

The Germans *did* want to buy Lightnings but two things scuppered the deal:  BAC's sales department were crap in 1960 and the French.
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Weaver

Quote from: The Wooksta! on December 05, 2010, 05:24:50 AM
The Germans *did* want to buy Lightnings but two things scuppered the deal:  BAC's sales department were crap in 1960 and the French.

I know - one German Admiral said that he found out more about the Buccaneer from reading the brochure than he did from a half-day meeting with British officials.... :rolleyes: (Can you imagine how infinitely better a Bucc with 4 x Kormoran would have been for the Marineflieger than the 104?)
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
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apophenia

Quote from: Weaver on December 05, 2010, 04:13:02 AM
Wern't the Canadian F-104s intended mainly for a NATO role in Europe? ...

They were but they were also part of the US-Canada agreement on shared defence production (ditto for the later CF-5s also built by Canadair). No equivalent agreement with Britain at the time that I'm aware of.

ChernayaAkula

Quote from: The Wooksta! on December 05, 2010, 05:24:50 AM
<...> two things scuppered the deal:  <...> the French.

The French? How so?  :unsure: Germany didn't buy the Mirage III and went for the F-104 instead (thanks to a corrupt defence minister).
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GTX

Quote from: rickshaw on December 05, 2010, 04:07:21 AM
They were considered for Oz, in the same competition which was won by the Mirage III.  The other contender was the F-104.  All three weren't great on legs but had excellent performances.

Also considered were the SAAB Draken, Northrop N-156F and F-4 Phantom.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

GTX

Actually for a whiff idea, how about the EE Lightning being part of a two tiered system for Canada.  In other words, something such as the Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck (and later the McDonnell CF-101 Voodoo) taking the role of long ranging 'patroller' and the EE Lightning as the rapid climbing point defence interceptor.

A EE Lightning in the bare like this CF-104 would look Über cool:



Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

SPINNERS


Geoff

Quote from: apophenia on December 05, 2010, 09:36:37 PM
(ditto for the later CF-5s also built by Canadair).[/quote]

I think they actually wanted the F-4 but got stuck with the F-5.

I do like the idea of the Lightning as a point defense interceptor for the RCAF!

GeoffP

kitnut617

I think it goes like the RCAF wanted the F-105 and got stuck with the F-5
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apophenia

#13
The RCAF looked at F-4s and F-105s (just like the candidate list GTX produced for the RAAF). The RCAF didn't "want" any particular aircraft. The various factors - whether DAR or messhall experten - slugged it out as usual. My point was about the guys with the chequebooks. The CF-5 was chosen because it was cheap and twin-engined.

Any aircraft purchases for the RCAF were going to get buffeted by the DIPP (the Defence Industry Productivity Programme) and the US/Canada Defence Production Sharing Agreement (DPSA). With CL-13s and CF-104s in mind, Northrop recognized the advantage of licencing the F-5A. Ignoring the RCAF precedents, neither Republic nor St. Louis saw the need to licence their designs for Canadian production.

Alvis 3.14159

Lightnings would make more sense as European based interceptors, a role the RCAF had dropped by the time the Lightning was available, but it would look stupendous in an overall green or even the Grey/Green/Grey 104 scheme, with leafy roundels, of course.

Ah the cursed CF-5s, a plane without a job, stored, retasked, sold, sued over, lost said lawsuit, intended for a NATO North Flank support, lacked much in the way of black box capability, upgraded, stored again due to funding cuts, all for the price we could have gotten an F-4 direct from St. Louis. But hey, they made great airshow performers....

Alvis Pi