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Fighter design by espionage/stealing

Started by Fulcrum, June 23, 2010, 01:50:14 AM

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Fulcrum

When France denied Israel 50 Mirage 5's, Israel decided to use it's spy agency to steal/borrow the designs. Israel then used the designs to build the Nesher & led on to other Kfir, Cheetah designs.

Here's my idea: There's the Mig-29A, but there is also a more advanced version called the Mig-29M. Because Mikoyan ran out of money & got no orders, the Mig-29M never got the chance to prove it's worth.

But suppose 1 country NEEDS the Mig-29M, but can't buy any & have problems in their foreign relations with Russia. So they steal/take the designs with the help of their intelligence agency & some dissaffected Mikoyan staffers.

Here's some suggestions for some countries:
Avro for Canada (instead of CF-18's & CF-35's)
Embraer for Brazil (instead of F-2000's & Rafales)
Denel for South Africa (instead of Cheetah's & Gripens)
PZL for Poland (instead of F-16C's)
Aerostar S.A. for Romania (I.A.R.-29 Sinpers?)
Aerospace Industrial Development Corporation for Taiwan/Republic of China

Of course when the Israeli's built their version of the Mirage 5, they renamed it Nesher.
Here's some naming suggestions(some might be stupid, I warn you):
Canada: Arrow 2, Avril(*facepalm*)
South Africa: Springbok or Vuvuzuela
U.K.: Britfighter(*facepalm*)
Poland: Stingray(someone please provide Polish translation, please (*facepalm*))
Romania: Sniper (duh!)

Other, better naming suggestions will be welcomed.
Fulcrums Forever!!!
Master Assembler

Fulcrum

South African naming suggestion: Vuvuzuela!!! HOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!(*Insert Vuvuzuela sound here ;D*)
Fulcrums Forever!!!
Master Assembler

Weaver

#2
Quote from: Fulcrum on June 23, 2010, 01:50:14 AM
When France denied Israel 50 Mirage 5's, Israel decided to use it's spy agency to steal/borrow the designs. Israel then used the designs to build the Nesher & led on to other Kfir, Cheetah designs.

Turns out that that isn't true actually. The French quietly supplied the embargoed Mirages in crates and used the "industrial espionage" story as cover.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
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ChernayaAkula

Cheers,
Moritz


Must, then, my projects bend to the iron yoke of a mechanical system? Is my soaring spirit to be chained down to the snail's pace of matter?

Weaver

#4
Well that's the version that can now be found all over the internet. I don't what the source of it is though.

Here's ACIG's version of it:

Quote
During February 1969, the IDF/AF bombed several targets inside Syria, and when Syrian interceptors reacted new air combats developed in which two MiG-17s and two MiG-21s were shot down. Actually, at the time the Israeli Air Force was still in a pretty bad shape, as the acquisition of new aircraft was initially slow. But, with US help, this was now rapidly to change. As first, Washington finally started to deliver 48 A-4E Skyhawks, and then also agreed to deliver 44 F-4E Phantoms. Very soon and again with the US help, the cooperation with France was re-established in a clandestine operation, which saw delivery of 50 ,,embargoed" Mirage 5Js in crates to Israel with the help of US C-5 Galaxy transports. These aircraft were not the same 50 Mirage 5J built for Israel: these were taken by the French Air Force. Instead, between 1969 and 1971 Dassault has built a new series: the aircraft were paid for by the USA and then shipped to IAI, which put them together between late 1969 and 1973, explaining in the public that it was beginning production of an "indigenous" Israeli fighter, originally called Mirage Mod, but later Nesher. Officially, this was "possible" due to cooperation of a Swiss engineer who should have ,,revealed" the secrets of Mirage 5 to Israel (and was even sentenced to several years of prison for doing this!). However, the company for which he was working was involved only in the production of Atar engines, and he could in no way have supplied the entire technical documentation need for the Israelis to build a completely new fighter.

Actually, the whole operation had to be organized in such manner because French were now officially ,,Arab-friends", and - after the coup against the Emperor Idriz of Libya, which brought Col. Qaddafi to power - supplying Mirage III and 5 fighters also to Libya (where these were actually flown by Egyptian pilots)! The clandestine US-French-Israeli connection was finally so far developed, that it lead to a project in which Mirage 5 was to be mated with a US-supplied J-79 engines by the IAI, in a project lead by US designer - Gene Salvay. Thus the ,,Kfir" came into being, which, however, entered production only after the war in 1973. Nevertheless, in the meantime the IAI was able to – again with considerable US support – re-engine its fleet of surviving Super Mystére B.2s with the J52 engine from the A-4 Skyhawk. This necessitated a longer fuselage, but offered a considerable advantage, then the aircraft could now carry a heavier payload as well. Consequently, they were equipped with additional hardpoints too.

From here: http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_263.shtml
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

Taiidantomcat

Quote from: Fulcrum on June 23, 2010, 02:27:20 AM
South African naming suggestion: Vuvuzuela!!! HOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!(*Insert Vuvuzuela sound here ;D*)

258th fighter wing "Satan's Vuvuzuelas"

:wacko:
"Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gaultier

"My model is right! It's the real world that's wrong!" -global warming scientist

An armor guy, who builds airplanes almost exclusively, that he converts to space fighters-- all while admiring ship models.

dy031101

#6
Quote from: Fulcrum on June 23, 2010, 01:50:14 AM
Taiwan/ROC: Chaig Kai-sek (can't spell *facepalm*)

That name is taken by licence-produced version of F-5E/F in the name of Chung-Cheng (which is Chiang Kai-Shek's other name; even his most staunch supporters would likely have found having two types of planes named in his honour to be too big for his ego  ;D).

But if the copied MiG replaces the real-life F-CK-1 in terms of existence, maybe it'll take the later's name, too (Ching-Kuo).

If not...... I remember there being some other influential non-CCP figures in Chinese aviation history, but Henry Yeh would be a better man for historial questions.
To the individual soldiers, *everything* is a frontal assault!

====================

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Mossie

Spoilers for Ken Follet's Mirage ahead....

Quote from: Weaver on June 23, 2010, 07:24:25 AM
Well that's the version that can now be found all over the internet. I don't what the source of it is though.

I've never been sure how to take either story.  I've read Ken Follet's Mirage which novelises the apparent Mossad operation, it's not bad, but how true it is difficult to tell.  Again, with the crated Mirage story, there's no way of corroborating it.  I guess we'll never know what really happened, although both make intriguing stories.

In Mirage (again, no idea of how true it is), Israel are offered refurbished Hunters to replace the embargoed Mirages.  It's a major part of the plot, there are shenanigans from a British company & an official within the Israeli Government who have money riding on the Hunter deal to attempt to derail the theft of the Mirage plans.

Okay, so lets say the espionage plan failed & Israel had to take the Hunters out of shear necessity.  The IDF/AF really needed mach capable aircraft to counter the MiG-21's in service with the arab countries surrounding Israel.  Would they have modified the Hunters to provide extra performance & capability like the Kfir?  If so, how would they have gone about it & just how much could they have milked out of the design?
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Gondor

I remember reading a spy thriller about all this once, no idea now of what the title or author was.

Gondor
My Ability to Imagine is only exceeded by my Imagined Abilities

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I know it's in a book I have around here somewhere....

Fulcrum

Quote from: Taiidantomcat on June 23, 2010, 10:17:55 AM
Quote from: Fulcrum on June 23, 2010, 02:27:20 AM
South African naming suggestion: Vuvuzuela!!! HOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!(*Insert Vuvuzuela sound here ;D*)

258th fighter wing "Satan's Vuvuzuelas"

:wacko:
LOL

South Korea & Serbia's out as options while ROC will have a different name instead.
Fulcrums Forever!!!
Master Assembler

dy031101

Which one is technically a more serviceable cannon, Gsh-23 or GSh-301?

If the country attempting to copy the MiG-29 for any reason had difficulties acquiring the Gsh-301, the copy could have been armed with a Gsh-23 cannon like the first MiG-29 prototype is.
To the individual soldiers, *everything* is a frontal assault!

====================

Current Hobby Priority...... Sigh......

To-do list here

Fulcrum

Quote from: dy031101 on June 25, 2010, 09:29:54 PM
Which one is technically a more serviceable cannon, Gsh-23 or GSh-301?

If the country attempting to copy the MiG-29 for any reason had difficulties acquiring the Gsh-301, the copy could have been armed with a Gsh-23 cannon like the first MiG-29 prototype is.
True.

I updated my original post & narrowed it down to 6 options.
Fulcrums Forever!!!
Master Assembler

Geoff

Quote from: Gondor on June 23, 2010, 03:41:49 PM
I remember reading a spy thriller about all this once, no idea now of what the title or author was.

Gondor
It was called "Mirage" IIRC.

There was a reverse engineered F-4E on another site once as the Su-19 which I built.

Weaver

As far as I know, both the GSh-23 and the GSh-301 are highly reliable. The latter is very slim though, so I'm not sure if a GSh-23 would fit in the same bay. In typical Russian fashion, neither of them is designed for a long service life though, so an airforce with western values might like to substitute a western gun with a longer barrel/mechanism life, even if it's not quite so powerful.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

rickshaw

Quote from: Mossie on June 23, 2010, 12:57:45 PM
Spoilers for Ken Follet's Mirage ahead....

Quote from: Weaver on June 23, 2010, 07:24:25 AM
Well that's the version that can now be found all over the internet. I don't what the source of it is though.

I've never been sure how to take either story.  I've read Ken Follet's Mirage which novelises the apparent Mossad operation, it's not bad, but how true it is difficult to tell.  Again, with the crated Mirage story, there's no way of corroborating it.  I guess we'll never know what really happened, although both make intriguing stories.

In Mirage (again, no idea of how true it is), Israel are offered refurbished Hunters to replace the embargoed Mirages.  It's a major part of the plot, there are shenanigans from a British company & an official within the Israeli Government who have money riding on the Hunter deal to attempt to derail the theft of the Mirage plans.

Okay, so lets say the espionage plan failed & Israel had to take the Hunters out of shear necessity.  The IDF/AF really needed mach capable aircraft to counter the MiG-21's in service with the arab countries surrounding Israel.  Would they have modified the Hunters to provide extra performance & capability like the Kfir?  If so, how would they have gone about it & just how much could they have milked out of the design?

The Mirage 5s were intended as fighter-bombers, not fighters.  They wouldn't have been taking on the MiG-21s.  The previously purchased Mirage IIIs would have.  Hunters would have been adequate in the fighter-bomber role the Mirage 5s were intended to fill (and more than likely quite a handful for a MiG-21 if they encountered one).  Their only disadvantage would have been load and speed.

My question though, is why would the UK Government allow the supply of Hunters when they weren't willing to supply other military equipment to Israel in the same time period?
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