avatar_Weaver

Carl Gustav 84mm Recoilless Rifle

Started by Weaver, August 27, 2009, 12:48:56 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

Weaver

Quote from: rickshaw on August 26, 2009, 02:52:53 AM
Quote from: Mossie on August 26, 2009, 01:25:49 AM
Is this why the Carl Gustav remains popular?  Being man portable, you can fire off a round, then leg-it quickly before you get the comeback.


Man portable is a relative term at the best of times.  The L35 was pretty damn heavy at IIRC 35 lbs and each round weighing about 10 lbs each.  It wasn't something you threw around although I'm sure that if it was a two-way rifle range you might find it adding new strength and speed to your arms and legs.   :lol:

The L35 was, in Bofors terms, an M2. The later M3 has the solid steel barrel replaced by a carbon fibre one with a thin steel liner to carry the rifling, which makes it MUCH lighter: IIRC, it's about the weight of a Bren gun.


(image source: gizmag.com


***added image to support discussion***
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

IanH

#1
Quote from: Weaver on August 27, 2009, 12:48:56 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on August 26, 2009, 02:52:53 AM
Quote from: Mossie on August 26, 2009, 01:25:49 AM
Is this why the Carl Gustav remains popular?  Being man portable, you can fire off a round, then leg-it quickly before you get the comeback.


Man portable is a relative term at the best of times.  The L35 was pretty damn heavy at IIRC 35 lbs and each round weighing about 10 lbs each.  It wasn't something you threw around although I'm sure that if it was a two-way rifle range you might find it adding new strength and speed to your arms and legs.   :lol:

The L35 was, in Bofors terms, an M2. The later M3 has the solid steel barrel replaced by a carbon fibre one with a thin steel liner to carry the rifling, which makes it MUCH lighter: IIRC, it's about the weight of a Bren gun.
I'd say a tad heavier than a Gimpy TBH - I used to end up humping the Basra!

MAD

#2

(image source: http://upload.wikimedia.org/]wikipedia)
Quote from: Mossie on August 26, 2009, 01:25:49 AMIs this why the Carl Gustav remains popular?  Being man portable, you can fire off a round, then leg-it quickly before you get the comeback.


I have and continue to use the Charlie Gutsache (Carl Gustav) in the Australian Army!
I for a long time myself wondered as to why we had not replaced it with a more modern weapon system?
But after you deploy with it and use it, you soon learn to appreciate two significant things
1/ Its simple to learn how to use (in the Australian army every infantryman is trained to use it!)
   Unlike that of the more expensive and more advance ATGM, the likes of the older Milan and newer Javelin!
   So if your Charlie Gutsache team is knocked out, any of your Diggers can pick it up and continue to use it.
2/ Its types of rounds are more versatile and more cost effective than than of a ATGM.
    For in an operational scenario, every Digger can carry 84mm rounds (as well as 81mm mortar rounds)
    This is not the case for the larger and heavier ATGM's.
Round type versatility = Anti-tank, High Explosive, Prac and one of my faverite and most over looked the the very effective Illumination round - which is far more versatile and longer burning than the 81mm mortar Illumination round. I love this round because I can deploy it instantly where and when I like without the need for mortar fire support.
 Add to this the new science and technologies which are going into new rounds and the modern sighting systems (including NAD's) have kept this simple weapons system practical and reliable.

And have I mentioned that its a buzz to fire - with a concussion that can makes or break your sinuses.
And look out if you do not have that bloody rubber ring positioned correctly on the vantura!!
The biggest and most common IA on the  Charlie Gutsache is a misfire, which is easily fixed !!
I have fired the RPG-7 when I was on holiday in Pakistan (nasty Pakistan copy at $100 a round). I fired only 3x RPG rounds and I still think the Charlie Gutsache is a better weapon, although the RPG-7 is far simpler and easier to carry, not to mention every man and his do has one!!!


M.A.D


***Topic split and supporting image of the Carl Gustave 84mm Recoilless Rifle added***

GTX

Quote from: MAD on September 04, 2009, 09:31:41 PM
Quote from: Mossie on August 26, 2009, 01:25:49 AM
Is this why the Carl Gustav remains popular?  Being man portable, you can fire off a round, then leg-it quickly before you get the comeback.


I have and continue to use the Charlie Gutsache (Carl Gustav) in the Australian Army!
I for a long time myself wondered as to why we had not replaced it with a more modern weapon system?
But after you deploy with it and use it, you soon learn to appreciate two significant things
1/ Its simple to learn how to use (in the Australian army every infantryman is trained to use it!)
  Unlike that of the more expensive and more advance ATGM, the likes of the older Milan and newer Javelin!
  So if your Charlie Gutsache team is knocked out, any of your Diggers can pick it up and continue to use it.
2/ Its types of rounds are more versatile and more cost effective than than of a ATGM.
   For in an operational scenario, every Digger can carry 84mm rounds (as well as 81mm mortar rounds)
   This is not the case for the larger and heavier ATGM's.
   Round type versatility = Anti-tank, High Explosive, Prac and one of my faverite and most over looked the the
   very effective Illumination round - which is far more versatile and longer burning than the 81mm mortar
   Illumination round. I love this round because I can deploy it instantly where and when I like without the need
   for mortar fire support.
   Add to this the new science and technologies which are going into new rounds and the modern sighting systems (including NAD's) have kept this simple weapons system practical and reliable.

And have I mentioned that its a buzz to fire - with a concussion that can makes or break your sinuses.
And look out if you do not have that bloody rubber ring positioned correctly on the vantura!!
The biggest and most common IA on the  Charlie Gutsache is a misfire, which is easily fixed !!
I have fired the RPG-7 when I was on holiday in Pakistan (nasty Pakistan copy at $100 a round). I fired only 3x RPG rounds and I still think the Charlie Gutsache is a better weapon, although the RPG-7 is far simpler and easier to carry, not to mention every man and his do has one!!!


M.A.D



Good points all - I have heard similar from others in the Australian Army.  I have to ask about your 'Pakistan holiday' though - that would have required some interesting clearances surely ;D.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

MAD

#4
Yes Greg

You were on the money

Ah yes

I got a little stick about this!!!!

I free lanced for a in between my normal occupation (long service leave!)

I did some work for Australia's largest telecommunications company (their International subsidiary!!).

I sort of assisted in the laying and jointing of optical fibre – from one side of Pakistan to the other.

Some very interesting roads in the middle of nowhere, which looked very much like where you might land an airplane in times of trouble or tension  – 'if you know what I mean'!!!!!

We were advised to pay a visit to a small town near the Afghan boarder (This was in the early 1990's - before the West's war on terror!); here the locals copy almost any type and kind of military weapon you can think of - from the ubiquitous AK-47 to an RGP-7.

Its truly strange to see it all, let alone what they are willing to sell it for!

Its funny we paid kids in cans of Coke to set up target for us – crazy part of the world!!

Whilst there we fired everything from AK-47, AK-74's, PKM, Dragunov, DShk and my favorite the KPV 14.5mm Heavy MG

Apart from the firing of these weapons, I insisted in stripping and cleaning them (the locals were a bit taken back by this strange request), but I took the opportunity to familiarise myself with these weapons. I must say I was both impressed with the simplicity of design and operation of them. No wonder they are so sort after by third world and terrorists.

There's a song – I can not recall its title?

In it, it says – Ill go back there some day, but I'll take more money'

As for the Charlie Gutsache - I think the only viable weapon that may be a good replacement may be the German Panzerfaust 3
In specifications it sounds a great weapon!
and the 110mm round sound like a great door opener!
And I will happly greet the non BBDA effects in an enclosed area or in a tactical situation
Hopefully with the German's operating in Afghanistan - who knows, our Pakistan friends may just do a copy of it - for which I will be happy to pay $$$ to fire!
Although the kids will probably want $$ these days instead of cans of Coke to set up targets.

M.A.D

Weaver

Quote from: MAD on September 04, 2009, 09:31:41 PM
   Round type versatility = Anti-tank, High Explosive, Prac and one of my faverite and most over looked the the
   very effective Illumination round - which is far more versatile and longer burning than the 81mm mortar
   Illumination round. I love this round because I can deploy it instantly where and when I like without the need
   for mortar fire support.

In the days before they acquired the MIRA Thermal Imaging sight for Milan, the British Army used to deploy Charlie G teams alongside Milan teams to a) provide illumination and b) provide short-range cover with HEAT and Cannister rounds for the latter to pull out and re-position when the Soviet armour and infantry started getting too close...

I don't know if the Aus army has bought them all, but there are a number of other Charlie-G rounds, including enhanced HEAT rounds, a REALLY enhanced HEAT round with an oversize, muzzle-loading warhead, rocket-assisted rounds for greater range, an APHE round that penetrates light armour and then explodes inside (troop-carrier killer, basically), and a variety of smoke rounds too. IIRC, there's a impact-triggered-short-delay fuse available too, which lets you "bounce" HE-Frag rounds so that they explode over defiladed targets.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

Jeffry Fontaine

#6
Here is a link to an interesting article on the Carl Gustav from GizMag.com that might be of interest to anyone that is a CG fan: The Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifle - 60 years and still going strong (written by  David Greig, GizMag, 18:30 April 23, 2009 PDT)

While I still have a preference for the M67 90mm Recoilless Rifle I can see where it was necessary to retire this weapon in favor of the Carl Gustav due to so many other nations using this weapon.  While the bore is only slightly less than that of the M67 there is also the wider variety of ammunition to consider as well which really makes the CG that much better as an infantry direct support weapon. 


(image source: olive-drab.com
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

DarrenP

The British army recently re-introduced the 66mm M72 Law pity they wasted the time on LAW 94mm and didn't stick with the Charlie G and just enhanced the Ammo for current ops the Illum , HE and HESH rounds would be useful and with an Anti personell round very useful.

rickshaw

Quote from: Weaver on September 06, 2009, 08:58:07 AM
Quote from: MAD on September 04, 2009, 09:31:41 PM
   Round type versatility = Anti-tank, High Explosive, Prac and one of my faverite and most over looked the the
   very effective Illumination round - which is far more versatile and longer burning than the 81mm mortar
   Illumination round. I love this round because I can deploy it instantly where and when I like without the need
   for mortar fire support.

In the days before they acquired the MIRA Thermal Imaging sight for Milan, the British Army used to deploy Charlie G teams alongside Milan teams to a) provide illumination and b) provide short-range cover with HEAT and Cannister rounds for the latter to pull out and re-position when the Soviet armour and infantry started getting too close...

I don't know if the Aus army has bought them all, but there are a number of other Charlie-G rounds, including enhanced HEAT rounds, a REALLY enhanced HEAT round with an oversize, muzzle-loading warhead, rocket-assisted rounds for greater range, an APHE round that penetrates light armour and then explodes inside (troop-carrier killer, basically), and a variety of smoke rounds too. IIRC, there's a impact-triggered-short-delay fuse available too, which lets you "bounce" HE-Frag rounds so that they explode over defiladed targets.

In a simple word - "no".  The ADF never purchased the advanced ammunition for the L35a1.  Just as they never purchased the advanced versions of the weapon.  From memory only HE, HEAT, Illum and Prac. were ever purchased.
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

Jeffry Fontaine

#9
Found a few images of the ammunition for the 84mm Carl Gustav.  Some of those projectiles are a bit naughty looking.


(image source: is rather obvious)

These images were found on the militaryphotos.net forums in a discussion topic on Recoilless Rifles



84mm HEAT round


Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Weaver

Hmm- I don't see the over-calibre muzzle-loading HEAT round I mentioned anywhere. I definately didn't dream it (got the old mag with it in somewhere hereabouts), so I wonder if they got no takers for it and took it off the market. It looked a bit awkward to use, but no more so than an RPG-7.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

MAD

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on September 07, 2009, 11:00:11 AM
Found a few images of the ammunition for the 84mm Carl Gustav.  Some of those projectiles are a bit naughty looking.


(image source: is rather obvious)

These images were found on the militaryphotos.net forums in a discussion topic on Recoilless Rifles



84mm HEAT round




Some very interesting round here, which unfortunately I have not had the pleasure!!
The one on the furthermost right looks some what dual-warhead or anti-reactive armour???


M.A.D

rickshaw

Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on September 07, 2009, 11:00:11 AM
84mm HEAT round


A particularly pernicious round that.  Very prone to blinds and because of the sensitive - extremely sensitive piezo-electric fuse in the long nose probe, very dangerous to dispose of if it misses its target.  Its known to be set off by a shadow falling over it (the sudden temperature change can be sufficient to create an electric current in the fuse and set off the round).  Disposed of a few as EOD.  Never liked particularly liked them.
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

MAD

Quote from: rickshaw on September 08, 2009, 02:58:10 AM
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on September 07, 2009, 11:00:11 AM
84mm HEAT round


A particularly pernicious round that.  Very prone to blinds and because of the sensitive - extremely sensitive piezo-electric fuse in the long nose probe, very dangerous to dispose of if it misses its target.  Its known to be set off by a shadow falling over it (the sudden temperature change can be sufficient to create an electric current in the fuse and set off the round).  Disposed of a few as EOD.  Never liked particularly liked them.

I hear you Rickshaw!!!
Depending on how you look at it - It's one of the disadvantages of being an Assault Pioneer by trade!
Are you a Ginger Beer or a Pioneer?
'You shot it , your DMO qualified you blow it'!
Hell its a few more bucks in my pocket for the blow - but it puts a dampener on the range practice!
But then again its much easier (and less sweet!) than digging out a blind mortar round!!
We find it a common problem with the HEAT round alright, especially when firing at a very high deflective angle  - which often results in the stand-off probe bending and not setting of the det!
Also the fact that the HEAT round likes to skim along the ground and not detonating!

As I indicated in my last (above) the round I am interested in that we do not use I have circled!
Do you know what round it is??

M.A.D

Weaver

The round on the right is the HEAT 751 round, which has a tandem warhead for dealing with reactive armour.

SAAB's product page is here:

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/ProductsServices/products_az.htm?url=http%3A//products.saabgroup.com/PDBWebNew/Generic.aspx%3FEntrance%3DProduct%26ProductCategoryId%3D270%26ProductGroupId%3D377%26ProductId%3D652

(click on the ammo types on the right to get a data sheet for each one.)

The MT 756 round on the left doesn't appear on the above page though. According to this article, it's a new round developed for the US Army, and is a tandem charge round designed for use against buildings: it blows a hole in the wall and then fires a bomb through it which explodes inside.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3031/is_4_33/ai_n29459528/pg_9/
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '