avatar_PolluxDeltaSeven

Sud Aviation (SNCASO) Vautour

Started by PolluxDeltaSeven, October 19, 2006, 03:27:15 PM

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PolluxDeltaSeven

Well... France was a member of the NATO, so why such a capacity?  For me, a Vautour nuclear bomber could be very useful as a pre-strategic nuclear bomber (something in the French doctrine between the "tactic" and the "strategic") against USSR and as a tactical nuclear bomber against the front-line (i.e. the East Germany, Poland etc etc...).  Of course, a bigger ranged Vautour III or Vautour IV could have been an excellent conventional bomber, something more similar to the B-47 than to the Canberra the Vautour IIN looked like!!!!

Here is the backstory and the description of the Vautour III I imagined.  But now, I realize that I limited myself the capacities of the Vautour III with the Atar 8K50 engine... 
A twin-engine Vautour IV with more powerful engines could be even bigger, faster and have greater range...

But I admit that I enjoy your idea of a four engined Vautour (Vautour V??)...  Such a plane could be for the Vautour II what the Mirage IV is to the Mirage III!!  And THAT'S a real strategic bomber, very close to the B-47, indeed!! 

QuoteAlso, I've read that the regular Vautour IINs got detailed to bomber squadrons once the Mirage IIIs entered service in force; what sort of bombload could they carry (maybe even nukes?)
In fact, the Vautour was first of all a bomber. 

Three variants were built:
-Vautour IIA: single-seat long range attack plane (for air support, day bombing and front-line attacks)
-Vautour IIB: twin-seat bomber, with better all-weather and precision bombing abilities (this one was able to carry the nuke... And I think they even launch a real one, during a test in Mururoa, but I'm not sure)
-Vautour IIN: twin-seat all-weather and night interceptor

Well, the Vautour was an incredible aircraft! Supersonic, multipurpose, a great evolution potential... What a pity Marcel Dassault had got so much power on French politicians!  On the link I sent to you, their is a recapitulation board with the abilities of the Vautour IIA (the Vautour IIIN and IIIM are from my own imagination)

QuoteI've always had a soft spot for the Vultures, especially in Israeli service, and think they could've served far longer than they did had the AdA been more practical about its bombers and upgraded the design like it deserved to be...
Well, with me and Archibald, you just found two new friends!!  :lol:  
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

Archibald

Tsiklon. Definetely the Tsiklon!  ^_^
It was a massive upgrade of the Vautour decided around 1963. Two spey engines, modern electronics, pointed nose, shorter span, 7000 km FERRY range... I have to show a pic (from Jean cuny books). It of course highly interested Israel, but also the AdA...which followed the path of the RAF towards the Buccaneer Ie rejected the Tsiklon (in favor of the Mirage F2) because it was subsonic...
In fact Sud Aviation was very enthusiastic about the project, but once again Dassault proposed it's F2, then Mirage IV to Israel... which in the end chose the Phantom after the French embargo.
According to Cuny, the attack Vautours (IIA) were only 30, of which half were sold to Israel, the others beeing used for flight tests (in the CEV, testin the Mirages radars until 1980 or so).
In the clear weather attack role, the Vautour was killed by the F-84F and F-100F even before entering service, in 1954!
In the all weather attack role, it was killed by the Mirage IIIE from 1961
In the strategic role, by the Mirage IV fom 1958.
Another use of the vautour was tanker for the Mirage IV, but the C-135FR took the mission...

Concerning the Vautour tactical nuclear role... the main NATO tactical nuclear weapon was the american A-bomb mk7, with a weigth around 720 kg. In 1956, the only aircrafts able to carry it were
- F-100 or F-84F
- Canberras, Skywarriors
Problem : the former carried the bomb over their wings, degrading performances. The latter were vulnerable...
the Vautour had the speed of an F-84F with the internal weapon bay of a Canberra.
A force of, say 140 Vautours loaded with mk7 tactical nuclear weapons (delivering it by toss-bombing method, from low-level) would have gave the soviets many sleepless nights :)
And france could have had a limited nuclear deterrent many years earlier...
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Archibald

#2
Quote from: Phnx28 on October 21, 2006, 08:32:33 AMAny pics of either the Tsiklon or Mirage IVB? :huh: I've dug around for about a day and can't quite find them yet. I figured as you mentioned above that Dassault proposed Mirage IVs to Israel before the Six-Day War and NPT changed all that, but corroboration from those in the know is always good.
Long life to the "secret projects" forum! Here's the Tsiklon...

King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Archibald

QuoteWoooooow!

Thanks Archie for that!!
If only I had it months ago, it could have help me a lot for the Vautour III of the New-France Air Force!!!!

By the way, I'm happy to see that I wasn't so bad in my estimations of lengh, empty and full load weight ;)
J'ai même sous-estimé la masse maximale pour une telle poussée réacteur ;)

I think I could use your beautiful profile as a base for a Vautour III profile!!
Oh yesssssssss! :wub:  :wub:


PS: tu n'aurais pas un scan haute définition de la vue de profile ?? :P
Hmm Pollux (and Phnx if you want also!) I can send you the 12 pages dedicated to the Vautour in the book :)
In fact there was many projects... First drawings of the Vautour had the engines on pylons (a pocket Skywarrior really !). Later, there was some Vautours IV projects, one with a bigger span (a long range bomber!) the other optimised for interception.  And of course, the II A/B/N, the Tsiklon, and even UCAV Vautours  B) (at the time, they were called Robots vautours :)
Pollux if you need I can "extract" the side view (alone) and post it here to gave you a basis for your profiles... (Ada, RAF, IDF and...New France AdA are the obvious choices, but 'm confident on your imagination :)

Here we are... side view.

I have grouped all the Vatour variants in a single picture... I have to you show that, guys!!  
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Archibald

Ok, here 's the vautour family... The Mirage IV and its simbling will follow soon (not high quality pictures I fear :( )
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Zen

Hmmmm....

You could scale the design up. Say with twin engines in a pod on each wing, the undercarridge sited between the engines in the pod.
Side by side seating with a large ventral bomb bay.
To win without fighting, that is the mastry of war.

PolluxDeltaSeven

#6
I tried to do some test drawings in order to see what size an increased Vautour could be...

And for my part, I conclued that a 4 engined Vautour is not very plausible. It would need a total refit of the wings and it will need at least a 40% bigger airframe...

Moreover, it would largely increase the fuel consumption and reduce the fuel and weapon payload (fuel and undercarriage beeing putted under the wings...)


I think that a good solution could be to stay with 2 engines, but largely more powerfull...

Spey, Atar 8k50, Avon, and why not TF33 of the B-52 (maybe too big and too heavy, but in a very large derivation of the Vautour, it oculd still be a good idea instead of 4 ATAR...)...

For my part, I oculd see a French Vautour staid in service even after the Mirage IV and Jaguar arrived...
A Vautour III powered by an ATAR 8K50 replacing the Vautour II in order to serve during the 1970's and later in the midd-1980's, the Vautour III could have been modified in Vautour V with M53-G2 engines (a non-afterburned variant of the M53 I just imagined!  :P ) able to produce 6600kg of thrust, but with less weight, far less consumption...
Such a Vautour V could have more than twice the range of the real Vautour II with much more than twice its payload!!


A 4 engined variant of the Vautour could have been developped but for a strictly strategic purpose, in my opinion, and it will probably have a totally new name.
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

Archibald

Stop reading in my mind!!! I think about the Atar 8K50 and non-afterburning M53 for a very long time now :)
aparently there's a 1/72 scale Vautour available (can't remember the maker, but it seem the model is not very good..nope,  I really need a VAUTOUR!!!! )

For those who received the pages, cuny mention that the Tsiklon was in competition with the Mirage F2 in 1965 for a long range, low-level strike aircraft. Here's an interesting opportunity, even more if you manage to sell the aircraft to the Israelis...

Let's start from the Tsiklon.
First variant with Speys and Mirage IIIE weapon system (cyrano II multimode terrain-following radar). The AdA and IDF buy it, just in time for the 6-day war in 1967.
Second variant in the late 70's with M53G2, and Antilope V radar (the unit of the 2000D/N).
In this case, there's no Jaguar... maybe there's no 2000N, and no 2000D! Dominos effect, the Mirage 2000 stay in the A2A role only, the Tsiklon replace the Mirage IV, and Aerospatiale still compet with dassault in combat aircrafts until the 90's!!!
:wacko:




King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Jeffry Fontaine


(Image source: http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/3vues/S-3vues.html

I found this blurb about the Vatour on Wikipedia: Sud Aviation (SNCASO) S.O. 4050 Vautour
QuoteSome reports suggest French IIB could carry a single AN-11 or AN-22 nuclear weapon in its internal weapons bay
Since the bomb bay was large enough to accommodate up to six 1000 pound general purpose bombs it would have been possible to arm the Vatour with the Mk.7 tactical nuclear weapon. 
Quote(from the Vatour Page)Despite its impressive loads the Vautour had no modern fire-control devices, which made its efficiency highly dependent in the crews' skills.
It would have been a simple matter of fitting the aircraft with the appropriate electronics to allow the Vatour to perform nuclear delivery with the LABS technique or high-speed delivery with delayed detonation. 

More links to the Vatour:
EADS History: Sud Ouest Aviation/Sud Est-SNIAS SO-4050 "Vautour"

The Vatour Pages
FlugzeugInfo.Net: SNCASO SO.4050 Vautour
www.paulnann.com Military Aviation Photo Gallery: SNCASO SO.4050
Google Books: Air Warfare.  By Walter J. Boyne, Michael Fopp
Hi-Tech, Kit # 007, 1/48 scale Vautour IIN built by Tom Cleaver (on Modeling Madness)
(Warning! These links go to pages that are in Russian language.  But there are some nice images at the bottom)
airwar.ru: SO.4050 Vautour IIA
airwar.ru: SO.4050 Vautour and Vatour IIBR
airwar.ru: SO.4050 Vautour IIN
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philp

Guys, you are killing me.  I have been dieing to get a 72nd Vautour to do a RW Israeli version.  Has been listed several times over the last two years but still no kit.  There was an old kit that had a short run but well out of production.
Phil Peterson

Vote for the Whiffies

Jeffry Fontaine

#10
Quote from: philp on June 15, 2009, 11:48:16 PMGuys, you are killing me.  I have been dieing to get a 72nd Vautour to do a RW Israeli version.  Has been listed several times over the last two years but still no kit.  There was an old kit that had a short run but well out of production.
Just as bad for a 1/48th scale Vatours unless you want to spend a lot of money on the Fonderie Miniatures kit or the very old 1/50th scale Heller kit. 
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
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"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Weaver

That Tsiklon is damn pretty: looks like you could make one with a TF-104 nose and canopy. Need a bit of deepening though!

There's the little Heller 1/100th Vautour of course, but it's horrid: the version in the box is a IIA, but some of the boxes show something more like a IIN. .. :rolleyes:
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

NARSES2

Quote from: philp on June 15, 2009, 11:48:16 PM
Guys, you are killing me.  I have been dieing to get a 72nd Vautour to do a RW Israeli version.  Has been listed several times over the last two years but still no kit.  There was an old kit that had a short run but well out of production.

I have a French IM plastic/resin kit in 1/72 that Thorvic spotted for me at Telford a few years ago, but I won't build it until I can replace it - daft I know  :banghead: Like you I'm waiting for the promised Azur kit. Wan't to do a RAF version in the low level intruder role. French get Canberra's for the high level role

Chris
Do not condemn the judgement of another because it differs from your own. You may both be wrong.

GTX

This photo from latest (Feb 2011) edition of Aeroplane just screams whiff to me - RAF Vautours anyone?



Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

PR19_Kit

... or even Armee de l'Aire Javelins?  ;D
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit