Kiev & Kuznetsov class carriers

Spey_Phantom · May 02, 2009, 07:34:39 AM

i know there is already an aircraft carrier thread here, but i concider the soviet kiev & kuznetsov carriers to be of a unique kind.

with recent events, ive seen that STOBAR aircraft carriers are becoming popular, especially in the asia-pacific region. with China and India now repairing old ex-soviet aircraft carriers (Gorshkov (now "vikramaditya") and the Varyag (now possibly renamed "Shi Lang") respectivly) and building new STOBAR carriers themselves based on those designs.
at first Russia was the only user of the STOBAR system, i thought it was an inpractical system but i guess the carriers type is just a late-bloomer on the export market.

last week, i also read that Russia is planning to build 2 or 3 new carriers beyond the 2015 timeframe, and equip them with navalised PAK-FA's

so i was thinking, what are the thoughts here on export customers of ex-soviet carriers.

maybe:

-Pakistan: bought a chinese Kiev amusement park and had it refitted and rebuild the same way as the gorshkov, its airwing could consist of Seakings, J-10K's, Z-9's......

-Ukraine: would have kept the varyag for own use, equip it with Mi-14, Ka-27, MIG-29K's and SU-33's, maybe also concidered to build Yak-130K carrier based trainers.

-North Korea: would have bought the Novorossiysk before i was scrapped and equip it with Mi-8's and ex-russian Yak-38s

anyone else have good idea on exports or possible upgrades and improvements

dy031101 · May 02, 2009, 09:29:16 AM

Quote from: Nils on May 02, 2009, 07:34:39 AM
with China and India now repairing old ex-soviet aircraft carriers (Gorshkov (now "vikramaditya") and the Varyag (now possibly renamed "Shi Lang") respectivly) and building new STOBAR carriers themselves based on those designs.

I've always thought of "Shi Lang" as a politically-incorrect name- most definitely not because of anyone beyond the boundary of their country though.

People like that have always been a controversial topic- military officers who fought the enemy to the bitter end and those who betrayed their current administration to assist the enemy (Shi Lang belongs to this category), when the said enemy would in history end up unifying China and more or less "going native" (with the exception of the Mongolian-run Yuan Dynasty, and they didn't last long). Is fighting to the bitter end an act of loyalty or merely delaying the inevitable (some "historians" went so far as accusing them for being the "obstacles to unification"; easy for them to say, considering they look at history in a hindsight)? Did the traitors really believe in unity of the Chinese nation, or are they just opportunists who just wanted to be on the winning side? Would the PRC administration really want or need to kill brain cells to get to the bottom of this topic?

GTX · May 02, 2009, 01:39:02 PM

Some slight nitpicking:

Quotewith China and India now repairing old ex-soviet aircraft carriers (Gorshkov (now "vikramaditya") and the Varyag (now possibly renamed "Shi Lang") respectivly)

The Gorshkov/Vikramaditya isn't being done by the Indians but rather the Russians. And it is being rebuilt/redesigned rather than "repaired". The way thing have been going lately though, I don't know if it will even get into Indian hands.

*Nitpicking Mode off*

Except for their age/condition, maybe the ex-Soviet Kiev class could all be upgraded into STOBAR carriers and used by the Russians themselves (probably with MiG-29K/KUBs). A good way to get a largish aircraft carrier component.

Chinese doing the same is another possibility - especially the idea of a PLANAF MiG-29K

.

As for a name for a Chinese Carrier, I've always thought Zheng He was a suitable name. I guess we will have to await the real Chinese carriers though to see what they do.

Regards,

Greg

pyro-manic · May 02, 2009, 04:53:53 PM

I read somewhere that if the Russians jack the price up too much further the Indians might change their mind about acquiring Gorshkov, in which case the Russians would recommission her themselves. Could be interesting.

I've always thought that STOBAR carriers are a really bad idea because they're so inefficient, both in terms of deck usage (need lots of space clear for the take-off run), and the fact that aircraft can't carry much of a load if they want to get off the deck at all.

Sauragnmon · May 03, 2009, 07:14:07 AM

STOBAR carriers have their ups and their downs - and remember, there's STOBAR carriers in Europe too. STOBAR is cheaper on maintenance, and doesn't have to build up steam in order to operate. But, you can't do a full weight takeoff, you can't carry some special mission aircraft like AEW, you're rather delegated to mixed support.

I've always been one to think that going half and half would be an efficient choice - two cats on the side line, ramp on the bow. Lets you operate a low-cost CAP, carry AEW, and operate full-weight strike power if necessary. To that end, eventually I'm getting a CVN model and Sovietizing the living hell out of it with Russian birds, a ski jump, Russian defensive weapons, and a Russian bridge.

dy031101 · May 03, 2009, 08:17:58 AM

Quote from: Sauragnmon on May 03, 2009, 07:14:07 AM
STOBAR carriers have their ups and their downs - and remember, there's STOBAR carriers in Europe too. STOBAR is cheaper on maintenance, and doesn't have to build up steam in order to operate. But, you can't do a full weight takeoff, you can't carry some special mission aircraft like AEW, you're rather delegated to mixed support.

There are helicopter-based AEW assets available.

Or...... maybe built-in or disposable RATO boosters for the AEW plane? It'd be just like afterburners used by fighter aircraft, I would imagine?

Spey_Phantom · May 03, 2009, 08:46:24 AM

AEW helicopters are not the only platforms for early warning tasks.
with the 3 planned kuznetsov class carrier, the USSR planned to equip the airwings with the YAK-44 (hawkeye-ski).
but with the collaps of the union in the early 90's, only 1 carrier was commisioned and it would be a total waist to design the yaks to buy just 3 or 4 production aircraft

if the varyag and the 3rd carrier were completed and entered service, then yes, more could have been ordered.
not a bad looking plane now isnt it

Ed S · May 03, 2009, 08:51:19 AM

Interesting A/C. Looks like Yakolev made one for the "Sovietize it" GB.

Ed

Sauragnmon · May 03, 2009, 08:55:45 AM

Are you sure they were planned for Kuznetsov? I could have sworn the Kuznetsov was not capable of launching them, they were planned for Ulyanov'sk in truth, the Russian CVNs instead of the Kuznetsov class.

dy031101 · May 03, 2009, 12:08:27 PM

Quote from: Sauragnmon on May 03, 2009, 08:55:45 AM
Are you sure they were planned for Kuznetsov? I could have sworn the Kuznetsov was not capable of launching them, they were planned for Ulyanov'sk in truth, the Russian CVNs instead of the Kuznetsov class.

Look like something that could use a built-in or disposable RATO booster or two right there.

Joe C-P · May 03, 2009, 02:02:16 PM

I've a Kiev that's not quite finished. It's partially equipped, with most of the weapons removed from the foredeck (I used them on other models or traded them) but there aren't aircraft. I was thinking RN, but may instead do Polish if I can find markings.

Maybe Brasil, Argentina, Chile, India (as-is instead of rebuilt) or even Japan.

For Varyag, I've had ideas about PLAN, the USN (bought to keep it out of Chinese hands and fixed up as a test vessel for a combination conventional, short, and vertical take-off carrier), the RN, and a new European Navy. I have two Kuznetsovs/Varyags, one I wrecked and stripped to build an Orel-type conventional carrier with parts from a third.

JoeP