avatar_rallymodeller

Fight! Fight! Fight! (Canada's Fixed Wing SAR competition)

Started by rallymodeller, December 27, 2008, 12:26:33 AM

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rallymodeller

Reading the CASR's pages on the FWSAR project led me to a couple of interesting pages relating to the leading competitors to replace our aging CC-105 Buffalos. Each company has it's own Canadian-dedicated page extolling the virtues of their respective aircraft, complete with artwork showing the planes in glorious Canadian SAR-yellow!

In this corner, we have the underdog! Weighing in at 51,150lbs MTOW, the Spanish competitor, the EADS/CASA C-295 SAR!

And in this corner, weighing in at a massive MTOW of 70,107lbs, the favourite and likely purchase, the Alenia C-27J Spartan!

Problem is neither of these really replace the Buffalos, in that the Buffs are used to resupply Arctic bases with unimproved airstrips, and both competitors are a little too heavy to do this. Unprepared Arctic strips are really soft in the summer, and the wide-track landing gear and large tires of the Buffalo is ideal for the resupply mission.

Pictures look cool, though.
--Jeremy

Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...


More into Flight Sim reskinning these days, but still what-iffing... Leading Edge 3D

GTX

Looking good - the C27J will be a good logistical match with your C-130Js (same reason why the RAAF will probably place an order for some next year).

Quote
Problem is neither of these really replace the Buffalos, in that the Buffs are used to resupply Arctic bases with unimproved airstrips, and both competitors are a little too heavy to do this. Unprepared Arctic strips are really soft in the summer, and the wide-track landing gear and large tires of the Buffalo is ideal for the resupply mission.

Unfortunately, the RAAF will also have a similar problem when selecting its Caribou replacement from these - I strongly believe the C-27J will win though.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Sauragnmon

You know, that's somewhat amusing.  The C27J site seems to like comparing itself against the Herc, instead of the aircraft they're aimed to replace, the Buffalo.  Just an observation there.
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The Rat

The only thing that can replace a Buffalo is a new Buffalo.  :thumbsup:

ARE YOU LISTENING BOMBARDIER?!  :wacko:
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Captain Canada

Agreed.

Make a few changes to her, and let's go ! Other than that, why don't we use the Dash 8 ? I mean, come on, you can jump out the side ! Or better yet, the SAR version of the CL-415 !

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rallymodeller

#5
Quote from: The Rat on December 27, 2008, 04:55:04 PM
The only thing that can replace a Buffalo is a new Buffalo.  :thumbsup:

ARE YOU LISTENING BOMBARDIER?!  :wacko:

IIRC Viking Aviation owns the rights for the Buffalo as well as the Twin Otter. I don't think Bombardier has anything to do with any old DHC designs other than the Dash-8.

I'll be convinced of the STOL characteristics of either of the pretenders to the throne once I see them doing what I saw a Buffalo do in London once: landing into a headwind it descended almost vertically -- it had a ground speed of something like 20kt, and rolled to a stop in less than 200 feet.

Let's see a C-27J do that.
--Jeremy

Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...


More into Flight Sim reskinning these days, but still what-iffing... Leading Edge 3D

MAD

Quote from: rallymodeller on December 27, 2008, 12:26:33 AM
Reading the CASR's pages on the FWSAR project led me to a couple of interesting pages relating to the leading competitors to replace our aging CC-105 Buffalos. Each company has it's own Canadian-dedicated page extolling the virtues of their respective aircraft, complete with artwork showing the planes in glorious Canadian SAR-yellow!

In this corner, we have the underdog! Weighing in at 51,150lbs MTOW, the Spanish competitor, the EADS/CASA C-295 SAR!

And in this corner, weighing in at a massive MTOW of 70,107lbs, the favourite and likely purchase, the Alenia C-27J Spartan!

Problem is neither of these really replace the Buffalos, in that the Buffs are used to resupply Arctic bases with unimproved airstrips, and both competitors are a little too heavy to do this. Unprepared Arctic strips are really soft in the summer, and the wide-track landing gear and large tires of the Buffalo is ideal for the resupply mission.

Pictures look cool, though.

I both read and hear what you are saying in regards to either the C-27J or the C-295's ability to match the STOL performance of the Buffalo!

I have been privileged over the years to be deployed in the back of the old and venerable Caribou ('hay anything beats walking with all your gear on your poor old back'!!).
Every time we have operated from the Caribou, it has never ceased to amaze me with its STOL performance (this may also have something to do with the nuts that fly them also!).
Hell the first time I flew in one during 'Kangaroo 89' (K-89) I thought we were all going to die!!!!!!!

The only plane I have personally been in with better STOL performance was that of the PC-6 Porter, which our army used to operate (never liked flying in single-engine kites that you sat on the floor and you could stick your finger through!).
Unfortunately when the Porter was phased out its capability was never replaced.

This I think will be the case when the ADF (RAAF) finally replaces the good old Caribou.
For although as Greg (GTX) has stated with the C-27J`s engine and cockpit compatibility with our C-130J's will be of some benefit, I will only be convinced when I can see or be in a C-27J landing were the Caribou could and did!

As for the C-27J's greater internal volume and lift capability, when compared to that of the Caribou?
This is not everything

I'm (and possibly the crews of the Caribou in RAAF service) all for a revamped and modernized Buffalo as a Caribou replacement over that of the C-295 or C-27J, in ADF service.


M.A.D

nev

Could they not add some STOL friendly features to the C-27J like blown flaps?
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Gary

Article in Wednesdays paper made the case that with all the money Canada is shelling out to other countries to make try and replace the shambles left by decades of neglect, we might consider buying this fixed wing SAR aircraft from a Canadian company. The big contender is the Dash 8 with modifications to meet the need of SAR. However, to meet all the other needs requires other aircraft.

The biggest question is... is this aircraft for SAR or for the multitude of things the Buffalo did? The Dash can do SAR with the electronics fit. But for transport and air dropping cargo and rescue chaps, different story altogether.

If it goes heavily modified Dash 8 you know it'll go design by commons committee and take 30 years to get and it still won't work right.
Getting back into modeling

Scooterman

#9
Are there structural issues with the 'lo?  Why not just use the motors from the C-27J/C-130J and add a glass cockpit?

Is there a kit of the C-27 and C-295?

B777LR


viper29_ca

Its all a moot point as the contract has been awarded to the C-27J.

Defense Minister Peter McKay "quietly" announced over Xmas a $3B Advanced Contract Award Notice for 17 C-27J Spartans.

Link here from CASR

http://www.casr.ca/ft-utility-transport-fwsar-1.htm

Don't discount the C-27, I saw it perform along side the C-295 about 5 yrs ago at the Halifax International Airshow, and considering at that time, the planes were flown by their respective test pilots, to show them off....the C-27 seemed to be much more nimble and capable than the C-295. Nevermind that the C-27 has a rear cargo door like the Buffalo and C-130s, making it much easier to load and off load supplies and such. I honestly don't think it will have much of a problem landing on unprepared runways and such in the north. To me the C-295 is too much like a prop driven airliner converted for military use...where as the C-27 is built from the ground up for the jobs it is intended for.
Thanks
Scott
Elm City Hobbies

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jcf

Quote from: Sauragnmon on December 27, 2008, 01:43:04 PM
You know, that's somewhat amusing.  The C27J site seems to like comparing itself against the Herc, instead of the aircraft they're aimed to replace, the Buffalo.  Just an observation there.

Read again, they are pointing out the similarities to the C-130 as way of showing how it would best augment the C-130s.

GTX

Quote from: MAD on December 27, 2008, 08:05:19 PM
This I think will be the case when the ADF (RAAF) finally replaces the good old Caribou.
For although as Greg (GTX) has stated with the C-27J`s engine and cockpit compatibility with our C-130J's will be of some benefit, I will only be convinced when I can see or be in a C-27J landing were the Caribou could and did!


The C-27J will NEVER land where the 'bou can/could.  The RAAF doesn't care though - in fact I've recently read an interview with the CAF where he stated this capability wasn't used that often (note - I'm not actually agreeing with him here - I think the STOL capability was a very useful capability that will be missed). 

As to the replacement , it will need to be announced pretty soon as the 'bou's are slated for retirement in 2009!  I believe the replacement(s) will be a combination of C-27Js (possibly up to 12) + CH-47Fs (possibly 6 new plus existing D's upgraded).  Be nice if a few of the C-27Js were also in the AC-27J format...

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

ChernayaAkula

How about an An-72/-74? That should look pretty nifty!
Cheers,
Moritz


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