Merchant Ships Converted To Military Use

[Spey_Phantom]

after reading about low-cost helicopter carriers in the chinese carrer thread, it got me thinking
what potential do civilian ships, such as tugboats and yacht's have when they are converted for military use 

with piracy becomming a big problem, just like terrorism, wouldnt it be interesting seeing navy's aquireing civilian ships and convert them for own use?

a good exsample is the Waker of the dutch coast guard (image, revell 1/200)


imagine this ship entering service as a helicopter carrier, maybe with an additional landing deck on the back 

or the lurrsen yacht 


or this Pelorus Yacht owned by a russian billionair 


the possibilities are endless 
especially with revell's recent new releases 

[B777LR]

Charles Simonyi's yacht "Skat" is often parked in Copenhagen when he is'nt using it. It already looks like a warship:

http://skagen.net/nyheder/index.php?blog=2&title=71_meter_super_yacht_pa_besog_ejes_af_ti&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[Hobbes]

I don't really see this happening. Ships are so expensive to build and outfit that the design cost is relatively low in comparison, so having a unique design isn't a big issue, and for navy duty you need fundamental features not found in commercial ships: suitability for high speed in rough seas dictates the hull design and engine specs, you also need damage resistance i.e. few and small windows, essentials hidden inboard or behind armor plating.

The Dutch Navy is currently building a series of ships to counter pirates and smugglers: the Holland class OPV.



These ships are as large and heavy as our earlier frigates (3700 ton, 108 m), but lack their armament so they're cheaper to build and operate (only 50 crew needed instead of 100+). Surprisingly, they're also slower (only 22 kt).
Armament:
- 1  76 mm Oto melara
- 1  27 mm gun

- NH90 Helicopter
- 2  RHIBs

This is intended as a cost-cutting measure (they cost around $ 100 M each, compared to the >400 M our LCF ships cost).

If it were up to me, I'd go chasing pirates in one of these:

(Wally 118, one of the fastest yachts around with a top speed of 60 knots

[Spey_Phantom]

ok, here's something a little farfetched, what if the Titanic never sunk 

deu to shortage of aircraft carriers in world war 2, a number of civilian passenger liners were converted to warships and aircraft carriers.
the largest of witch was the RMS Titanic, witch was taken into conversion to aircraft carrier in 1941, after 3 years of work, the ship was launched, being renamed "HMS Enormous", as it was the largest carrier in the Royal Navy, and the world 

with an airwing consisting of over 100 Seafire Mk.8's, 20 Fairey Firefly Mk.5 and 30 swordfish Mk.2's.
she continued service with the Royal Navy until finally retired in 1978.

here's a quick profile i made

Large version (3279 x 825):
http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/Nilssteyaert/misc/?action=view&current=hmsenormous.jpg

[tinlail]

I think it makes sense, for some combination of two factors.

1) An immediate need although other navies may not be as bad, I don't think the US Navy could get a new bathtub toy launched in under ten years. This particularly makes sense if your ship is a platform for other weapons.

2) A expectation that combat damage will not occur to the ship, or that the situation is a emergency.

3) A short term need the problem will last less than the life time of the ship thus a ship could be bought used, and discarded at the end of life , or a new ship could reconverted, and sold at the end of the need.

4) It is something that needs to be done out side the chain of command, maybe special op, maybe just backwater area of command.


If the navy had some sort of SCADS conversions could be performed quickly.

[GTX]

ok, here's something a little farfetched, what if the Titanic never sunk 

deu to shortage of aircraft carriers in world war 2, a number of civilian passenger liners were converted to warships and aircraft carriers.
the largest of witch was the RMS Titanic, witch was taken into conversion to aircraft carrier in 1941, after 3 years of work, the ship was launched, being renamed "HMS Enormous", as it was the largest carrier in the Royal Navy, and the world 

with an airwing consisting of over 100 Seafire Mk.8's, 20 Fairey Firefly Mk.5 and 30 swordfish Mk.2's.
she continued service with the Royal Navy until finally retired in 1978.

here's a quick profile i made

Large version (3279 x 825):
http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/Nilssteyaert/misc/?action=view&current=hmsenormous.jpg

Cool - are those aircraft to scale?

Regards,

Greg

[Rafael]

Author Jeff Head in his novel "Dragon's Fury" depicted these communist chinese vessels, all built from big, honking tankers: an aircraft carrier, an assault ship and a missile ship:


Rafa

[PR19_Kit]

A hobby-horse of mine............

It's been done already a few times, mostly connected with the 'Arapaho' concept of converting a container ship to a low-tech helicopter or VSTOL carrier. In the UK the most famous of these was the 'SS Atlantic Conveyor', sunk during the Falklands War after ferrying RAF Harrier GR3s and Chinooks, and FAA SHARs and Wessexes down south. The Conveyor was not fully converted in the Arapaho scheme of things as it had no hangar accomodation at all, shelter being given to the Harriers and choppers by the outer walls of containers mounted on the original support structures, and the aircraft were mostly bagged up in huge plastic tarpaulins. Two of the SHARs were kept unbagged for use as QRA aircraft, one fully armed and fueled on the forward pad at all times, although it was never used to deter the Argentinian recce 707 that trailed the fleet.

The Conveyor's sister ship, 'SS Atlantic Causeway', was also converted but more fully, in that it had a forward mounted hangar to cover its flight of Sea Kings, but the ship did not reach the Falklands until the War had finished.

Post the Falklands the 'MV Astronomer' was similarly converted and renamed 'RFA Reliant' for similar purposes after being impressed into the RFA. The Astronomer was built similarly to the Causeway in that she had a large forward hangar with a small helipad between that and the bridge structure.

There's also notes of another ship, the 'Empire Leander', having been converted, but I can find very little detail of her, even down to her nationality. Certainly there don't seem to be any photos of her on the Net.

For some reason the concept seems to have fallen in disuse, the Reliant's flight operations seem not to have been too successful and the ship was subsequently returned to civilian life.

To add a modelling connection I'm building a 1/144 scale R/C model of the Atlantic Conveyor, complete with all its Harriers, Chinooks etc. It'll be a while building as it's 5 ft long or so, and there are LOTS of containers to put together as well, but hopefully sometime in 2010 should see her afloat.

[pyro-manic]

There were several ocean liners converted to "merchant cruisers" during the First World War - one of these was present at the Battle of Coronel. IIRC several ships were built in the run up to the war with provision for mounting 4" deck guns, allowing them to operate as such. A more modern equivalent could be interesting - 21st Century Q-ships? Cargo containers with fold-down sides, concealing some small deck guns or mortars, along with a couple of .50 machine guns or light cannon (25mm Bushmasters or similar).

[rallymodeller]

There were several ocean liners converted to "merchant cruisers" during the First World War - one of these was present at the Battle of Coronel. IIRC several ships were built in the run up to the war with provision for mounting 4" deck guns, allowing them to operate as such.

The Lusitania was one of these -- that's one of the reasons the German Navy sunk it, as it was listed as an armed merchantman and RN auxiliary vessel in the ships' registry of the time.

Realistically, littoral defense vessels are most cot-effectively converted from civilian ships. IIRC the USN is testing a catamaran ferry hull converted to a sea control vessel.

[dy031101]

here's a quick profile i made

Large version (3279 x 825):
http://s307.photobucket.com/albums/nn292/Nilssteyaert/misc/?action=view&current=hmsenormous.jpg

I think the ship might need a bigger funnel to adequately discharge the boiler smokes and couldn't help to think in proportions (the funnel with respect to the hull) of Lexington or Kaga......

[pyro-manic]

Yep, needs more stacks. Alternatively, what about the side-trunked funnel the Kaga had?



A big problem with converting Titanic or ships of a similar age is that they were coal-fired. That adds complexity to the supply chain, requires large crews (to shovel coal from bunker to bunker), and is very smoky - could cause problems with visibility, especially on recovery. Still a nice idea, though - HMS Titanic would be one of the world's largest warships, and the biggest carrier by a large margin. Another possibility would be Queen Mary - she was new at the start of the war (commissioned 1936 IIRC), and was very fast.

Speed is, incidentally, a problem when converting commercial ships to carriers - things like tankers are very slow, and would struggle to get sufficient wind-over-deck to launch most aircraft. Unless you can build extremely powerful catapults, aircraft to withstand the launch/recovery, etc, this is a big problem. Better off sticking to STOVL aircraft and helicopters.

[dy031101]

Author Jeff Head in his novel "Dragon's Fury" depicted these communist chinese vessels, all built from big, honking tankers: an aircraft carrier, an assault ship and a missile ship...

I remember someone elsewhere mentioned a Taiwanese novel long ago (what's its name...... I think it's to the effect of "Interception of 'Storm One'"...... anyway) revolving around the ROCN converting a supertanker or large container ship into an aircraft carrier, using navalized F-CK-1 Ching-Kuo as her carrier fighters of choice.  I've never personally read the novel, but from the descriptions the person gave me, the carrier appears to be rather conventional (as in having an arrangement similar to that of US supercarriers, except of course she's built on a merchant hull and appears to have retained merchant machineries).

I don't know if she uses catapults- and, if she has catapults, how they were obtained- or a skijump, either, but I'm not entirely comfortable either way, considering the descriptions gave me the impression of a slow ship.  pyro-manic has described why.

Aren't the San Giorgio class assault ships said to be built to merchant standards?

[rallymodeller]

Speed is, incidentally, a problem when converting commercial ships to carriers - things like tankers are very slow, and would struggle to get sufficient wind-over-deck to launch most aircraft. Unless you can build extremely powerful catapults, aircraft to withstand the launch/recovery, etc, this is a big problem. Better off sticking to STOVL aircraft and helicopters.

It should be noted, however, that modern container ships are some of the fastest large vessels afloat. Some of them are capable of sustained speeds of 28-30kt. Basically, it depends on how much horsepower you are willing to put into them.

If you are starting from the keel-up, merchant ships have many advantages over military-designed ships -- but just as many disadvantages. For support ships like AORs the disadvantages of lower resistance to battle damage and so forth are not as important, but for a capital ship having a hull that can barely withstand a 4" gun hit is kind of a bad idea. Since a carrier costs so much and is such an important target, it is imperative that it be able to both fight and to absorb damage if necessary. Commercial-spec ships just aren't designed to do so.

For an interesting discussion of the pros and cons of commercial-derived military ships, I recommend reading CASR's review of possible Canadian Navy sealifters.

[Hobbes]

A more modern equivalent could be interesting - 21st Century Q-ships? Cargo containers with fold-down sides, concealing some small deck guns or mortars, along with a couple of .50 machine guns or light cannon (25mm Bushmasters or similar).

I think you're on to something there. Build containers with guns in them, plus a fire control system, and stash a few of those on every convoy that sails through a dangerous area. Also give every convoy a UAV with a surface radar so you can see the baddies coming from >30 km away.