Panzer IV

Started by starship1, December 18, 2008, 09:20:01 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

starship1

How about some what-ifs for this old German warhorse?  One of my thoughts would be a Christy suspension and a redesigned turret with a second hatch on the roof instead of two in the turret sides.  I'd draw it but my artistic skills are best left in the closet. ;D

Weaver

Lose the bow gunner and direct vision port, then fit a sloping glacis plate and only periscopes for the driver.

How about more of them get used post-war like the Sherman? (Syria? used them in various wars until the 1960s) They could then have Super-Sherman style mods such as better suspension and post-war guns. GIAT or Cockerill short barrelled 90mm?
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

Sauragnmon

Hmm, the angled front plate might work, the bow gun could still be retained, panther style, if the work was good, as an option.  Periscopes for the driver would increase protection as well.

Postwar, upgrades like the Super Sherman, with the French 75mm wouldn't be too hard, since the gun is already a 75mm in late IV's just with a longer barrel and possibly different breech.  I'm not sure about bigger guns, though, but it might be an interesting sight to see.  Potentially a new mantlet as well, rebuild the turret sides a little.  New Engine for a certainty, to give it better power/weight and more effectiveness.
Putty-fu, Scratch-jutsu and Bash-chi, the sacred martial arts of the What-If. Mastering them, is Ancient Chinese Secret.

Just your friendly neighbourhood Mad Scientist and Ship-whiffer.

Overkill? Nah, it's Insurance.  So are the 20" guns.

dy031101

Quote from: Weaver on December 19, 2008, 02:15:52 AM
How about more of them get used post-war like the Sherman? (Syria? used them in various wars until the 1960s) They could then have Super-Sherman style mods such as better suspension and post-war guns. GIAT or Cockerill short barrelled 90mm?

I was kinda surprised that Israel didn't move to acquire what was left of the German vehicle stocks.  Or did the Red Army captured enough articles to make such moves impractical?
To the individual soldiers, *everything* is a frontal assault!

====================

Current Hobby Priority...... Sigh......

To-do list here

GTX

Maybe a export version in IJA colours?

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

gunfighter

Here in Spain we used the Panzer IVs until the 60s, but it was a matter of being unable of buying modern tanks at that time. I think one is being restored by now.
Anyway, I prefer the Panther for a post-war whiff as it was much more advanced, maybe the most advanced tank in 1945.
For the PzIV, I was thinking on a SPAAG version, it would look nicer than the M42 duster  :cheers:

rallymodeller

Well, it's not a Pz IV, but I have a StuG IV (same chassis) in the stash that is going to be post-war when completed. 
--Jeremy

Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...


More into Flight Sim reskinning these days, but still what-iffing... Leading Edge 3D

Weaver

Quote from: rallymodeller on December 19, 2008, 04:11:21 PM
Well, it's not a Pz IV, but I have a StuG IV (same chassis) in the stash that is going to be post-war when completed. 

That could be a basis of an early ATGW vehicle: a sort of Jagdpanzer Rakete equivalent with big-finned 50's-looking missiles on an over-elaborate launch rail. After all the Jpz Rakete started out with SS-11, and there was an Spz.12-3 based vehicle with SS.11 too.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

starship1

apophenia, I love your ideas.  Better than mine! :tank:

Maverick

I like the ideas of a Pz IV modded.  Might have to see if I've got a blank handy & have a play CGI wise.

Regards,

Mav

Geoff

The Syrians had PzKw IVs and Stugs in the '67 Six Day War.

Weaver

Quote from: Sauragnmon on December 19, 2008, 10:49:14 AM
Hmm, the angled front plate might work, the bow gun could still be retained, panther style, if the work was good, as an option.  Periscopes for the driver would increase protection as well.

Postwar, upgrades like the Super Sherman, with the French 75mm wouldn't be too hard, since the gun is already a 75mm in late IV's just with a longer barrel and possibly different breech.  I'm not sure about bigger guns, though, but it might be an interesting sight to see.  Potentially a new mantlet as well, rebuild the turret sides a little.  New Engine for a certainty, to give it better power/weight and more effectiveness.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the post-war French 75mm based on the Panther's L70 weapon, not the L48 in late Pz.IVs? if so, then I doubt there'd be room for it in a Pz.IV turret: if there was, then surely the Germans would have done it, or at least studied it, during the war.

I suggested the GIAT/Cockerill 90mm weapons because they're relatively low velocity, low swept-volume weapons designed for use on armoured cars. Their principle anti-tank round was HEAT rather than a KE round: immediately after the war and for quite a while after, HEAT was very much "in fashion" in some quarters as an anti-armour gun round. It was only when armour thicknesses went up and countermeasures started to appear that the emphasis went back to KE.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

GTX

#12
QuoteFor the PzIV, I was thinking on a SPAAG version, it would look nicer than the M42 duster

Err, there were quite a few real world Panzer IV SPAAGs (I have photos of these as well):








Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

rallymodeller

Ooh! Kugelblitz! The first modern SPAAG!  :wub: :wub:
--Jeremy

Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...


More into Flight Sim reskinning these days, but still what-iffing... Leading Edge 3D

Sauragnmon

Mmmm, Kugelblitz.  Damn that was a cool looking design.


Weaver, you are correct, the AMX-10's 75mm was built off the Panther's L/70 gun not the L/48 in the Pz IV, but what I meant was, and you didn't quite read it completely - I am not sure what difference there IS between the L/70 and the L/48 aside from the longer barrel, and likely A DIFFERENT BREECH.  What else is there to be different?  Same bore, but it likely used a more powerful charge and a longer casing, thus the breech is probably different.  You could probably bash it around, the IV did have a big turret on it, and sledgehammer one into place.  You might need a counterweight on the back of the turret, much like the M-50 had on it, but still - you could Probably do it with some finesse.

As to the Germans not considering it, perhaps there's something to that.  Or else somebody did, and they thought there would have been too much redesign work to be involved in the construction.  Panthers have smaller turrets than IV's, so likely it had something to do with stowage or internal equipment mountings or the redesign of the whole thing in general.  You don't quite see much external difference between the Jagdpanzer IV L/48 and L/70, do you?
Putty-fu, Scratch-jutsu and Bash-chi, the sacred martial arts of the What-If. Mastering them, is Ancient Chinese Secret.

Just your friendly neighbourhood Mad Scientist and Ship-whiffer.

Overkill? Nah, it's Insurance.  So are the 20" guns.