avatar_PanzerWulff

Tiger, Panther, and King Tiger

Started by PanzerWulff, October 15, 2008, 07:34:36 PM

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PanzerWulff

THe tiger was my favorite of the german big cats and other than Fix the mechanical issues what do you think would improve these terrors of the WWII battlefield.and who else do you think would have used them if available?
"Panzer"
Chris"PanzerWulff"Gray "The Whiffing Fool"
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Self proclaimed "GODZILLA Junkie"!

dy031101

Applique armours (sideskirts, for example) and bring the main armaments to 88mm/L71 standard (which the King Tiger already has)...... and then maybe 105mm in the future?

I'm not sure about the narrow turret for Panthers though...... I only saw pictures showing its exterior profiles, but it already gives me the feeling that it might not offer too much space in terms of crew comfort and future growth potential......
To the individual soldiers, *everything* is a frontal assault!

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dogsbody

A better, more powerful engine.  The 475hp Maybach just didn't have enough stuff and it used gasoline. A nice diesel like the 600hp unit in the T-34 would have been better.

I've often wondered if the Junkers Jumo 207 could have been modified to fit into a tank. It produced 600-800hp. If it could have been reconfigured to run in a horizontal position instead of vertical, you may have seen Tigers and King Tigers practically zooming around Europe.
"What young man could possibly be bored
with a uniform to wear,
a fast aeroplane to fly,
and something to shoot at?"

nev

Tiger I & IIs would also need to be either lighter, or have better suspensions, or both.  The armour on the KT whilst thick was also very brittle and prone to cracking.

Japanese Panthers operating in Siberia against the Russians?
Between almost-true and completely-crazy, there is a rainbow of nice shades - Tophe


Sales of Airfix kits plummeted in the 1980s, and GCSEs had to be made easier as a result - James May

jcf

Quote from: dogsbody on October 16, 2008, 05:32:03 AM
A better, more powerful engine.  The 475hp Maybach just didn't have enough stuff and it used gasoline. A nice diesel like the 600hp unit in the T-34 would have been better.

I've often wondered if the Junkers Jumo 207 could have been modified to fit into a tank. It produced 600-800hp. If it could have been reconfigured to run in a horizontal position instead of vertical, you may have seen Tigers and King Tigers practically zooming around Europe.

The 207 was basically a 205 optimized for high altitude performance with an enlarged dual dual supercharger system, one exhaust turbine driven - the other mechanically driven.

The horsepower output of an engine in an aviation or marine application and that of a ground vehicle application are very different.
The aircraft and marine engines are designed to be run at an optimal throttle setting for hour after hour, ground vehicles are constantly accelerating and decelerating, consequently the power requirements and power curves are very different. Also horsepower is not the only factor when dealing with tracked vehicles, high torque is a critical factor. While the opposed-piston Junkers high-speed aircraft diesels could have been modified to run in a horizontal position, their dual crankshaft design and power output gear train would probably have required strengthening to deal with the varying loads generated by a tracked vehicle. Simply installing a 207 in a Kingtiger wouldn't necessarily make it into a hotrod.

The 205 and 207 were also fairly large.

Jumo 205D
Displacement: 16.6 l (1,013 cu in)
Length: 2.236m (7ft 4in)
Height: 1.272m (4ft 2in)
Width: .645m (2ft 1.5in)
Weight: 595kg (1,312lb)
Output: take-off 865hp, cruise 680hp at 2,800 rpm

Jumo 207
Displacement: 16.6 l (1,013 cu in)
Length: 2.236m (7ft 1.5in)
Height: 1.272m (4ft 10.25in)
Width: .91m (2ft 1.75in)
Weight: 865kg (1,907lb)
Output: take-off 1,160hp, cruise 985hp at 3,000 rpm

dogsbody

I actually meant to write " 205 ", I just hit the wrong number. I realize the engine would need to be reinforced. It's a lot easier to turn a propellor than it is to turn the drive sprockets on a 70 ton tank. I was thinking more about the thickness of the Jumo if it was mounted horizontally. It would be a bit thinner than a " V " type engine. Even if it only put out 600hp at the shaft, that's still over 100hp more than the Maybach, and the fuel would be less prone to light up when hit.
"What young man could possibly be bored
with a uniform to wear,
a fast aeroplane to fly,
and something to shoot at?"

Arc3371

Perhaps postwar production by France, Yugoslavia, Romania etc

jcf

Quote from: dogsbody on October 16, 2008, 11:41:06 AM
I actually meant to write " 205 ", I just hit the wrong number. I realize the engine would need to be reinforced. It's a lot easier to turn a propellor than it is to turn the drive sprockets on a 70 ton tank. I was thinking more about the thickness of the Jumo if it was mounted horizontally. It would be a bit thinner than a " V " type engine. Even if it only put out 600hp at the shaft, that's still over 100hp more than the Maybach, and the fuel would be less prone to light up when hit.

Where are you getting 475hp for the Maybach V-12 in the Tiger/Kingtiger?
The references I have and info on the web shows a rating in the range of 700hp for the HL230.
It is also dimensionally (except for 'thickness') quite a bit smaller than the Jumo 205:
4 feet long, 3 feet 2 inches wide and 3 feet 1 inch tall without the air cleaners
http://www.alanhamby.com/maybach.shtml

Jon

dogsbody

Oops!  Sorry, you're right and I was wrong. I really should have checked my meager references on German tanks instead of relying on my aging memory. Please forgive me.

Still, a diesel would have been less prone to fire and may have increased range a bit.
"What young man could possibly be bored
with a uniform to wear,
a fast aeroplane to fly,
and something to shoot at?"

nev

How about a Panther APC conversion a la the Ram?
Between almost-true and completely-crazy, there is a rainbow of nice shades - Tophe


Sales of Airfix kits plummeted in the 1980s, and GCSEs had to be made easier as a result - James May

johnestauffer

How about considering what Israel could have done with these tanks should they have gotten some.
Look at all their modifications of the Sherman's for example

JoeP

In want of hobby space!  The kitchen table is never stable.  Still managing to get some building done.

Sauragnmon

Things I could think of that would improve the big cats...

More engine power - their speed was dreadful, not to mention the fact the engines were horrible for maintenance.

Improved suspension - the Panther's front torsion bars needed more, improve the suspension across the Tiger and Konigstiger, thus to improve their cross country stabilization.

Gun performance - I recall reading the 75mm actually had good penetration compared against the 88, which was starting to suffer from some penetration issues later in the war.  If I recall, for example, the 75 had some of the better ammunitions of the time, such as APDS, unlike the Tiger, which had at best APHC.  Perhaps replicating APDS ammunition would have even rendered the gun even more destructive.  Granted if I'm not mistaken, German 105mm Hollow-charge rounds could do a serious scary hole on some of the bigger tanks of the time as well.  I've heard that the armor damage system in the Combat Mission series is among the best simulation, and I was unpleasantly surprised once when a friend's Hummel launched a 105mm HC round at the front armor of my IS-2 and took it down in one shot.  I don't know how verifyable the effect would be in reality, but yeah.

Anti-Aircraft - That was one thing the bigger big cats lacked, and it showed horribly - Most of the Konigstigers knocked out in the western front, and I think the east front, were disabled by aircraft, not in combat.  This is combination between their poor engine performance not getting them to the fight, and the fact they were completely helpless for a target from above.  Something mounted on the roof to allow the crew to fire at aircraft would have been a blessing likely, something like an MG-151/20 or such, with enough punch to actually do something to an attacking aircraft.

Armour - Applique armor, Schurzen, all of the modifications put into the later Panzer IV's to improve armor performance would likely have been a very good idea on the Tiger Ausf E.  Imagine if you will, a Tiger E, with all the modifications of the Panzer IV M/N.


Alternately, a Flaktiger might have been an interesting modification, since the Tiger ausf E was losing its ability to perform in combat with the flat armor on it.  Giving it the ability to engage aircraft with a hard hitting gun would have helped in the tiger units.
Putty-fu, Scratch-jutsu and Bash-chi, the sacred martial arts of the What-If. Mastering them, is Ancient Chinese Secret.

Just your friendly neighbourhood Mad Scientist and Ship-whiffer.

Overkill? Nah, it's Insurance.  So are the 20" guns.

jcf

Quote from: Sauragnmon on October 17, 2008, 06:37:10 PM

Anti-Aircraft - That was one thing the bigger big cats lacked, and it showed horribly - Most of the Konigstigers knocked out in the western front, and I think the east front, were disabled by aircraft, not in combat.  This is combination between their poor engine performance not getting them to the fight, and the fact they were completely helpless for a target from above.  Something mounted on the roof to allow the crew to fire at aircraft would have been a blessing likely, something like an MG-151/20 or such, with enough punch to actually do something to an attacking aircraft.



Alternately, a Flaktiger might have been an interesting modification, since the Tiger ausf E was losing its ability to perform in combat with the flat armor on it.  Giving it the ability to engage aircraft with a hard hitting gun would have helped in the tiger units.

Neither would have made much difference, the Tigers in the West were vulnerable to attack from aircraft because the Allies controlled the skies. The Luftwaffe was in a bit better shape in the East but the Soviets would just keep throwing Il-2s and Pe-2s at target zones almost regardless of losses.

What the Tiger needed for anti-aircraft protection was a better Luftwaffe.  ;D

jon

sagallacci

Panther improvements
Replace the suspension entirely with something like the type proposed for the E-50. The original double torsion bars were expensive to make and install and space intensive in the hull as well as a pain to service in the field, while the E-50 units were cheap, simple and easily repairable/replaceable in the field. Non-interleaving wheels would help too.

A better engine and transmission. More powerfull would be nice, but simply more reliable would have helped. Diesel would also help.

The "narrow" turret was workable and having it as the new standard would be a good thing. But don't wait for the rangefinders and periscopic sights. Though they'd be nice to have, the thin turret sides and curved mantle were more important weaknesses that needed to be addressed.

More armor on the sides, an important weakness for the Panther.

Tiger B/KingTiger
As per the Panther, replace the suspension, beef up the engine and transmission.

The gun was just fine, though think about a 105, and as mentioned, improve the ammo for the 88.

JagdTiger
As per the Panther and Tiger for suspension and power.

Add better crew optics and close-in self-defense, like the curved barrel Mgs (actually fitted on some Stugs and Jagdpanzer IVs).