Author Topic: PZL-230 Skorpion  (Read 11516 times)

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Offline GTX

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« on: May 04, 2006, 04:31:47 pm »
Hi folks,

The thread on the BAe SABA 'mud fighter' reminded me of its Polish Equivalent - the PZL-230 Skorpion:

Early version - PZL-230:

    * Wingspan - 10 m
    * Length - 9.5 m
    * Height - ?
    * Maximum speed - 640 km/h,
    * Service ceiling - 10 000 m
    * Wing area - 16m2
    * Empty weight - 2100 kg
    * Loaded weight - 5000 kg (2000 kg of munitions, 770 kg of fuel)
    * Rate of climb - 50 m/s
    * Range: 300 km
    * Runaway needed: 250 m take off, 220 m landing




Later Version - PZL-230F:

    * Wingspan - 9 m
    * Length - 9.30 m
    * Height - ?
    * Maximum speed - 1000 km/h (Mach 0.85),
    * Service ceiling - 10 000 m
    * Wing area - 25.40 m2
    * Empty weight - ?
    * Total weight - 10 000 kg (4000 kg of munitions)
    * Rate of climb - ?
    * Range: 300 km
    * Runaway needed: 400 m





Just imagine if in 1994, instead of being cancelled due to lack of funds, it recieved a massive injection (maybe through a investment by someone like BAe, Dassault or Aermacchi).

Regards,

Greg


 
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Offline Son of Damian

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2006, 11:32:59 pm »
Is that "Thing" real cuz it be BUTT UGLY!!! :P  :P  :P

Kind of reminds me of the Mig-31 that Clint Eastwood stole in the movie Firefox ^_^

Does the mock up/prototype still exist??? And do you have any more info on the PZL-230???

I doubt that Dassault, Aermacchi, or BAe would have invested in it considering that they all have aircraft that are competitors, Alpha Jet, AMX, and the Hawk.

If it were to receive funding it probably would have come from North Korea, China, Vietnam, Indonesia, Myanmar (Burma) or some other country that is exactly pro-western and definitely not on any western arms manufactures list of customers or potential customers.

Though it would probably be more likely that several former Warsaw pact countries would come together to design and build an aircraft that fit a requirement that they all had. Kind of like Romania's and Yugoslavia's joint venture the Avioane IAR-93A/Soko J-22 Orao which was a twin engine single seat attack aircraft designed and built in the late 70's and early 80's, total production in both Romania and Yugoslavia amounted to 165 aircraft.  


I could see Poland, Romania, Hungary, and the Ukraine coming together to help fund and develop the PZL-230. With each country producing a few airframes for there AF’s. Not to mention marketing it to any country that doesn’t currently operate the AMX, Alpha Jet, or Hawk. Indonesia, Burma, Bangladesh, Mongolia, China*, and several countries in Central/South America, Africa, and the Mid East could be potential customers.

* I have read that many countries of the former Warsaw Pact and Soviet Union are incredibly reluctant to sell advanced technology/equipment to China. For fear that the Chinese will simply copy it instead of getting a manufacturing license.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 11:34:06 pm by Son of Damian »
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borntokillagain

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2006, 03:48:05 am »
OMG there are Macross fans in Poland :P
That thing looks just like a SD version of VF-4 Lightning III
http://www.steelfalcon.com/Macross/vf4.shtml

 

Ollie

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2006, 05:33:14 am »
It's the Falken!

 :o  

Offline Archibald

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2006, 09:19:50 am »
Impressive little plane! Never heard about it before... you learn something everyday here (thats why i like this forum!!)
I always wondering if PZL thought one day about a true mach2 fighter ??
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
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King Arthur: What are you then?
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Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline GTX

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2006, 02:24:33 pm »
SoD,

Yes it is real.  The project was started in late 1980s by the PZL (Polish State Aviation Works) and was developed by a team under Andrzej Frydrychewicz at PZL Okęcie, analyzing the experiences of modern wars (Vietnam War, Soviet war in Afghanistan) and capitalizing on their experiences with some other recent Polish designs like PZL-130 Orlik.

Among the desired capabilities were the Short Take-Off and Landing (STOL), maneouverable but armored, cheap, easy to build and modify (due to modular design). The early design incorporated a single pilot, twin turbo-propeller engine canard-type construction, with engines on the top side (like in the famous A-10 Thunderbolt II), an ability to take off and land on a runway of about 250 m length, carry 2000 kg of munitions, travel at speeds up to 640 km/h, armed with 25 mm cannon and able to carry both NATO and Warsaw Pact munitions. Composites, fly-by-wire and other advanced avionics were to be used as well.

In 1990 the design was changed, as Polish Ministry of Defense demanded a top speed of 1000 km/h and ability to carry 4000 kg of equipment. The redesigned Skorpion became a heavier plane, and the engines were moved into the central body. The changes extended the required runway length to 400 m. The new design was also flatter, thus acquiring some stealth aircraft capabilities. This version was known as 230F. A model of the F version was constructed in 1992.

Later variants were named D, and included a DT training variant and DB combat variant. In 1993 the project was affirmed by the airforce, but due to budget cuts it was cancelled in 1994.

The PZL-230 was an ambitious project for Poland, and critics argued from the beginning that it was too ambitious. In the early days of the project Polish aeorospace manufacturing in the People's Republic of Poland was subservient to that of the Soviet Union and limited to Soviet technology.

After the events of 1989 (Autumn of Nations) Poland could import more Western technology, but was also affected by the economic transformation from communist to capitalism economic system. The post-1989 government had other priorities than military. Although some reviews and evaluations indicated that — according to the specifications — PZL-230 could become one of the most efficient of the contemporary attack planes, and many argued that PZL-230 could become an export hit, it was eventually cancelled. Today, PZL-230 project is remembered as one of the most ingenious post-Second World War Polish airplane projects.

In my dreams, I could see Dassault, Aermacchi, or BAe investing in much the same way that Aermacchi invested in the Yak-130.  As to weapns, I think it just screams out for the GPU-5/A pod (version of the A-10 cannon):



As to modelling, I have seen some pictures of a 1:72 version and a 1:33 version so I might do something in the future.

Regards,

Greg

 
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B777LR

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2006, 02:36:09 pm »
Hey, why does it need a specific distance to runaway?  

Offline GTX

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2006, 02:46:09 pm »
B777LR,

Quote
Hey, why does it need a specific distance to runaway?

Sorry, what do you mean?

Regards,

Greg
« Last Edit: May 05, 2006, 02:53:29 pm by GTX »
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Offline GTX

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2006, 02:57:16 pm »
Archibald,

Quote
always wondering if PZL thought one day about a true mach2 fighter

The closest I am aware of was the Kobra 2000 proposal of the early 1990s.  I don't have much information on it beyond this picture:



Regards,

Greg
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Offline Jschmus

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2006, 10:27:41 pm »
I remember seeing some information on the project in Jane's throughout the early 90s, then the project petered out.  I much prefer the early version.  It was designed around the GAU-12/U 25mm cannon, to be mounted on the centerline.
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Offline Iranian F-14A

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2006, 06:57:29 pm »
IIRC,the first model,the one that resembles the A-10 was called the Skorpion while the modified design,the black one,was called the Kobra.I'll look it up tomarrow night after work to double check.
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Offline Son of Damian

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2006, 07:09:06 pm »
Quote
Hey, why does it need a specific distance to runaway?

That way it can operate from areas close to the frontlines, so that the aircraft doesn't have to fly to creation to refuel and rearm for another sortie.

Kind of like what the Harrier and A-10 were designed to do.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 07:09:40 pm by Son of Damian »
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Offline Son of Damian

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2006, 07:15:33 pm »
Quote
The closest I am aware of was the Kobra 2000 proposal of the early 1990s. I don't have much information on it beyond this picture:

Hmmmm............ It looks like a F-16 with the engine intake moved to atop the fuselage in front of the tail.
"They stand in the unbroken line of patriots who have dared to die that freedom might live, and grow, and increase its blessings. Freedom lives, and through it, they live–
in a way that humbles the undertakings of most men."

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Offline marek

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PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2006, 02:32:58 am »
Quote
Quote
The closest I am aware of was the Kobra 2000 proposal of the early 1990s. I don't have much information on it beyond this picture:

Hmmmm............ It looks like a F-16 with the engine intake moved to atop the fuselage in front of the tail.
It never went any further then thos computer drawings. PZL 2000 Kobra was an answer for growing popularity of PZL 230 Skorpion. Something like: "Oh, look! Skorpion is in TV! We can design something and maybe we can get some money, too" :)

None of those projects had a real chance to be more then a kind of "whatif (we had enough money)" and noone officialy treat it seriously.

I do not recommend PZL 230 resin kit. It is overpreiced and has no details.

BTW, Kobra was not Mach 2 figther. It was lightweight attack airplane.

Poland never produced supersonic planes. There was TS-16 Grot concept (supersonic trainer, similar to T-38), but was cancelled by... Russians. The only supersonic planes had to be russian :(
« Last Edit: May 16, 2006, 03:44:33 am by marek »

Offline maxmwill

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Re: PZL-230 Skorpion
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 09:24:30 am »
I'm kind of coming into this  a bit late, because, instead of going down the threads and finding this the hard way, I found this on youtube and thought that it might not have been heard of here, and, as usual, I was wrong.

Still, this video of the Skorpion might be of some interest to a few here, if only to help flesh out more of what is in the photos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVnGF8XbgcA