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Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir

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Weaver:
Just read an interesting article on British-engined Mirage variants by John Fricker (in an old Air International), who witnessed some of the Avon-Mirage test-flying himself and saw the results. Boy, was that ever a should-have-been....... The engine access problems that plagued the Avon-Sabre shouldn't have re-occured since the Avon was narrower than the Atar and used all the same mounting points and access points. Take-off and time-to-altitude were dramatically improved although speed at altitude wasn't initially. However the main advantages were 15% better fuel economy (which let it meet the RAAF specified ferry range, unlike the Atar) and carefree engine handling. Furthermore, the second stage testing (which never happened) would have used a new full-section afterburner instead of the Lightning one used initially, which would have given even more performance. However, he also attested to the deteriorating relationship between Rolls Royce and the RAAF: the former didn't clear his visit with the latter who then practically accused him of being a spy!

In a footnote, he mentions that the Spey-engined Mirage IIIK was proposed to the RAF as a Hunter replacement in 1964, "with the full backing of Rolls Royce": sounds to me like another round of RR's anything-to-undermine-the-Harrier campaign to me... :rolleyes: He confirms that the Spey-Mirage did NOT need a larger fuselage, since the Spey had a smaller diameter than both the Atar and the Avon, although he doesn't mention the issues of air intake mass-flow and rear fuselage cooling. The latter was the reason for the Kfir's enlarged rear fuselage BTW: the J-79 is actually narrower than the Atar. With the Spey being a turbofan, I'd imagine that the duct wall temperature between the core and the afterburner would be lower than the J-79, although it might well have needed a Kfir-style fintake for afterburner cooling.

Politics aside, a Mirage III airframe with a 20-odd thousand pound Spey (25,000lb was mentioned as being possible) sounds like a hell of a hot ship!  :wub:

MAD:

--- Quote from: Geoff on July 13, 2008, 04:19:54 am ---The other potential Wifs for the Mirage III was the proposed Boeing/Dasault Mirage III/ F-5 in competition with the Northrop Freedom Fighter.
I did a few a couple of years back - they are in the Glasgow show pics from 2007 IIRC. Mirage 5 without radar as the F-5A equivilent, IIIE as the F-5E, and US built J-79 engined IIIE as an agressor a/c for the US forces.
Also the Mirage III for the RAF.

--- End quote ---

This was the Boeing/Dassault Mirage IIIW if I remember correctly!
Hard to find anything on this program.
I even wrote to Boeing many years ago requesting info on it - with no luck!

M.A.D

MAD:
Hay Weaver I second your opinion on the Avon / Spey engine Mirage III as a missed opportunity!

I think not perusing the Avon-engine Mirage III was one of the biggest mistakes that the RAAF made. After all the Dassualt had done all the hard yards with mating the Avon 67 engine to the Mirage III airframe, with the adamant thought that the RAAF would jump at the Avon-powered variant, after all the trouble it had gone through with time consuming efforts of making the Avon-Sabre work!

And in all fairness, the Mirage IIIK in RAF service would have been far more versatile and cost effective than the EE Lightning series of variants, let alone the Hunters.

M.A.D

ChernayaAkula:

--- Quote from: MAD on March 01, 2009, 11:59:32 pm ---<...>
And in all fairness, the Mirage IIIK in RAF service would have been far more versatile and cost effective than the EE Lightning series of variants, let alone the Hunters.

--- End quote ---

:thumbsup: And the F-104 Germany ended up with. :banghead:

Mossie:
And mores the pity, we built the Mirage first.  The Mirage series was directly inspired by the Fairey Delta II, just we did nothing with it. :banghead:

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