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Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: RotorheadTX on June 18, 2006, 08:11:05 am

Title: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: RotorheadTX on June 18, 2006, 08:11:05 am
We've got a trio of modified Stalwarts here in Austin, TX. They've stretched the hulls and completely screwed up the Stalwart's good looks!! :angry:

(http://www.austinducks.com/PhotoAlbum/images/039.jpg)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 18, 2006, 09:52:22 am
<_< That is the same conversion of the Stalwart that I seen on the company web page that was doing the conversion.  It looks even worse filled up with tourists.  As a stretched cargo carrier it would be an interesting conversion for me but the thought of painting a Stalwart in something other than camouflage or basic green and filling it with tourists is beyond me.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Martin H on June 18, 2006, 03:00:21 pm
Quote
completely screwed up the Stalwart's good looks!! :angry:
 
the words Stalwart and good looks just do not go togeather.

I can remember going to the British army run school near to the camp my dad was based at in germany, in the cargo area of a stolly. It was the only wagon available when the school bus broke down.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 30, 2008, 02:34:02 pm
What suggestions do you have for improving on this family of vehicles? 

I recall the Saladin being offered with a new main gun, some of these did serve in Kuwait and with other countries. 

How about a Saladin armed with a smaller caliber weapon such as the 30mm RARDEN?  Similar in some respects to the Scorpion and Scimitar that were armed with these weapons. 
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: GTX on October 31, 2008, 01:25:25 pm
How about some armed with missiles for the anti-tank (say Swingfire) or Anti-Air (say Rapier or even Tigercat)?

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on October 31, 2008, 02:45:15 pm
Guy across the road from us likes his off-road vehicles and actually had a REAL Stalwart for a bit  :wub: :wub: :wub: Think he got rid of it when he realised how difficult they are to service, though..... The Stalwart's such a natural "moon buggy" that it almost feels like cheating.....

During the first Gulf War, a holiday maker in Kuwait City got some footage of a Kuwaiti Saladin fighting the Iraqis: playing shoot'n'scoot around the back streets with T-72s..... :blink: :bow:

The Saladin/Saracen have lots of potential for upgrading, although the only ones I can remember off-hand are diesel engine upgrades and tropical air-con mods. You could fit just about any auto-cannon to the Saladin. It would certainly take the Israeli/Italian 60mm HV gun, the South African 76mm (Rooikat) or a 90mm low velocity weapon like the French H-90 or the Cockerill. If you wanted a high-velocity 90mm, then a complete new turret might be the better option, with the GIAT TS-90 (Panhard ERC) being the obvious choice.

The Saracen's awkward to up-gun significantly due to the narrow roof, but a more modern MG turret, perhaps with a .50 cal, should be possible, and any small/medium RWS, of course.

Regarding Greg's suggestion of ATGWs, the British Army's wheeled ATGW carrier of the time was supposed to be the Ferret Mk.4 with 4 x Swingfire and an MG, but this proved unsatisfactory, partly due to lack of reloads. Since the normal Ferret turret was the same as the Saracen's this implies that the Mk.4 turret could also have been fitted to the Saracen, which could then (with a bit of body-remodeling) have had semi-under-armour reloading.

There was also an earlier Ferret variant with two Vigilant ATGWs on the sides of the normal turret, which could obviously have also been applied to the Saracen.

I think that Rapier, and certainly Tigercat, would have been a bit big for the Saracen/Stalwart chassis. There's a drawing in BSP4 of a proposed armoured Tigercat based on a Centurion chassis and it still looks big and awkward. Remember that in their field mount form, these systems have their aiming systems on separate mountings. To put all that onto one vehicle, you either have to keep them separate, wherupon the closer spacing compromises the aiming arcs to a greater degree, or build them all into one turret, which then gets big.

Blowpipe/Javelin would be interesting on the Saracen though. Vickers developed a naval system called SLAM which had 6 x Blowpipes wrapped around a TV camera on a telescopic pedestal mount, the idea being that it could be stored retracted into a pressure cylinder in the fin of a submarine and then extended above the surface from periscope depth. A non-retracting version was also proposed for use on surface vessels and hovercraft, so it seems reasonable to suggest that it could have been mounted on an AFV too.


Another interesting line to take might be foreign-customer home-grown or improvised re-arms, say by a country that lost British support. How about a Saracen with a Chinese-style shielded DShK mount, or the original turret re-fitted with a PKT and an 82mm RR on the side in the style of Czech APCs? In the absence of UK ammo supply, the Saladin might be re-fitted with the 76mm from the PT-76, or the 73mm gun from the BMP-1, together with it's Sagger ATGW launcher on the turret roof. A Stalwart "technical" could provide AAA cover with a Zu-23 mount in the flat bed.... :wub:

I have a couple of JB Saladins (a vehicle for which I have an irrational affection) in the stash. One is nominally earmarked as an up-gunned, up-armoured Cheshire Army example, the other for a cheesy sci-fit project........
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Aircav on October 31, 2008, 02:46:44 pm
Saladin was tried with two missile boxes, one either side of the turret but how about a new turret with 4 HOT missiles. You could also convert the rear load area of a Stalwart and fit some sort of Raiper turret launcher with spare reloads, mind you'd have to watch out for engine fires  ;D
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Aircav on October 31, 2008, 02:48:13 pm
Guy across the road from us likes his off-road vehicles and actually had a REAL Stalwart for a bit  :wub: :wub: :wub: Think he got rid of it when he realised how difficult they are to service, though..... The Stalwart's such a natural "moon buggy" that it almost feels like cheating.....

Sure it wasn't something to do with 6 mile per gallon ;D
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 31, 2008, 04:28:52 pm
Saladin was tried with two missile boxes, one either side of the turret but how about a new turret with 4 HOT missiles. You could also convert the rear load area of a Stalwart and fit some sort of Raiper turret launcher with spare reloads,


The JED Site (http://www.jedsite.info/content/jed1.html) mentions several of these variations on the same theme for the Saladin. 

mind you'd have to watch out for engine fires
It certainly would be prudent to look for a suitable diesel engine replacement to reduce that fire hazard.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: kitnut617 on October 31, 2008, 04:41:29 pm
Guy across the road from us likes his off-road vehicles and actually had a REAL Stalwart for a bit  :wub: :wub: :wub: Think he got rid of it when he realised how difficult they are to service, though..... The Stalwart's such a natural "moon buggy" that it almost feels like cheating.....

Anyone remember that TV show that used to be on years ago, talking late 60's or early 70's (and in the UK).  It was where off-roaders used to race through this big swamp and Stalwarts were a regular competitor.  It was on that show that someone turned up with a two engined Mini Moke, one regular engine and the other where the rear seats were.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on October 31, 2008, 05:38:40 pm
The Salamander is the lesser known member of the family, an airfield fire tender used by the RAF, not a lot were built.  I guess you could find some civilian uses for the chassis, it might be useful in snow, dessert or rough terrain.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisSalamander.jpg)

I have a couple of JB Saladins (a vehicle for which I have an irrational affection) in the stash. One is nominally earmarked as an up-gunned, up-armoured Cheshire Army example, the other for a cheesy sci-fit project........


(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/SaracenJudgeDredd02.jpg)(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/SaracenJudgeDredd01.jpg)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Did this Berlin Brigade Saracen myself from the JB Saracen, just a paint job change, thought the block paint job would suit the angular lines of the Saracen:
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Berlin%20Saracen/FinishedThreeQuarters-1.jpg)

While trying to find a pic of the Challenger Marskman for the Chieftain/Chally thread, I came across a pic of a Saracen with what looked like a 76mm gun on a slightly larger turret, but can I find the b****r now???
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on October 31, 2008, 09:26:23 pm
Found this link for Mike Thorpe's 1/8th scale Saladin (http://mikethorpemodels.co.uk/SALADIN.aspx) while doing a search on the Alvis Stalwart.  Really impressive remote control model. 
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Aircav on November 01, 2008, 05:16:49 am
Always loved the Salamander, very Joe 90  :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: kitnut617 on November 01, 2008, 08:40:38 am
The Salamander is the lesser known member of the family, an airfield fire tender used by the RAF, not a lot were built.  I guess you could find some civilian uses for the chassis, it might be useful in snow, dessert or rough terrain.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisSalamander.jpg)

Yeah, now we're talking, an off-road motorhome  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on November 01, 2008, 11:08:40 am
Might be useful in Canada as a tundra buggy!

Talking of civvy conversions, I found this pic of a stretched Stolly used as an amphibious tour bus, similar to many DUKW's.  This should have a third wheel at the rear, seen on a seperate site that it's up for sale.  There's pics of standard Stolly's with a simple canopy roof to keep the worst of the water & elements off.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisStalwartStreched.jpg)

A stretched (maybe not as big as this one) Stally may have military applications, maybe even a 8x8 version?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on November 01, 2008, 11:20:56 am
How about using the Chassis for a more modern APC than the Saracen?  Room was pretty tight in there.  Extend the sides over the wheels for internal stowage, reposition the engine & mount the cab in the extreme front, something like the Fuchs?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: RP1 on November 01, 2008, 05:13:21 pm
The tracked Tigercat in BSP4 seems to have a radar tracker. If only optical tracking was used, then the mounting could be smaller.

RP1
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: General Zod on November 01, 2008, 05:44:20 pm
If the Saladin used that IDF 60mm HV gun,would the turret have to be a bit bigger for the recoil of the weapon?

I could see the Alvis Stalwart being converted into a tracked cargo carrier It would steer like a tank Not sure if that variant would still be an amphib
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: elmayerle on November 01, 2008, 07:35:02 pm
Could a Saladin carry the low-recoil 105mm gun I've seen mentioned elsewhere?  Just asking as I'm not that familiar with the family (though they look like they'd be perfect for LA freeways).
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on November 01, 2008, 07:39:17 pm
If the Saladin used that IDF 60mm HV gun,would the turret have to be a bit bigger for the recoil of the weapon?

I could see the Alvis Stalwart being converted into a tracked cargo carrier It would steer like a tank Not sure if that variant would still be an amphib

Just use the entire 60mm turret on the Saladin. 

Tracked Stalwart?  OY!  Almost as bad as putting wheels on an M113 :^)  But it might be worth a try. 
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on November 02, 2008, 08:12:06 pm
Mossie: Cheers for the sci-fi pic - that's from the Judge Dredd movie isn't it?

The LAST thing I'd do with a Saladin is put the driver over, or near, the front wheels, given that mines are one of the primary IED threats. I think the "old fashioned" layout like you seen on the Saladin/Hanomag/BTR-152 is actually worth re-inventing, if anything. Probably the best, most modern-looking interpretation of it was the Dutch YP-408:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/800px-DAF_YP_408_UNIFIL.jpg)

General Zod: the IMI-designed turret for the 60mm HV gun was really small, so I couldn't see it being a problem to fit it to the Saladin turret, which is really quite roomy. The Israeli turret was fitted to an M113 for trials, and looked smaller and lower than the Saladin turret in the same application. Another proposed application of the 60mm was to the M-24 Chaffee light tank, which doesn't have a very big turret.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on November 03, 2008, 02:27:12 am
Didn't know about that one, like it, the stretched limo version of the Saracen!  Yeah, the pics are of a Saracen converted for the Judge Dredd movie.  Looking forward to your Sci-Fi Saracen, it's moon-buggy looks would fit in.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on November 03, 2008, 02:54:35 am
Didn't know about that one, like it, the stretched limo version of the Saracen!  Yeah, the pics are of a Saracen converted for the Judge Dredd movie.  Looking forward to your Sci-Fi Saracen, it's moon-buggy looks would fit in.

It's a Saladin rather than a Saracen, and don't hold your breath - what I have in mind is a diorama, and I have to find lots of other bits yet.....
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on November 03, 2008, 03:07:38 am
Nope, it's a Saracen!  The Saracen was the APC, the Saladin the armoured car, honest!
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on November 03, 2008, 03:32:41 am
I've just had a thought, how about a standard truck as an alternative to the Stalwart, without the Amphibious capability?  The Salamander would be a good basis, just replace the rear section with a flatbed or the required equipment.  It'd give the British Army a go anywhere capability as well as having some niche civilian applications.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jschmus on November 04, 2008, 02:16:55 pm
I got the movie "Doomsday" from Netflix a few weeks back.  Rhona Mitra and company ride into Scotland in these big 8x8 APCs.  I wracked my brain trying to figure out what off-brand vehicle they were, only to find in the making-of video that they were designed and built, from scratch, by the movie producers.  I only mention it here because they vaguely resemble the "Judge Dredd" vehicle posted above.

(http://www.imcdb.org/images/173/200.jpg)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on November 30, 2008, 05:28:48 pm
PMMS (http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/) has updated the Accurate Armour (http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/newkitnews/accuratearmour.htm) page to show the new Alvis Stalwart kits that are now available:

K160 Alvis Stalwart Mk-2 HMLC (link to image (http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/newkitnews/images/accuratearmour/k160.jpg))

K161 Alvis Stalwart R.A. Limber (link to image: link to image (http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/newkitnews/images/accuratearmour/k161.jpg))

K162 Alvis Stalwart REME Fitters vehicle(link to image (http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/newkitnews/images/accuratearmour/k162.jpg))
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Aircav on December 01, 2008, 02:22:05 am
The Stalwart and family is one thing Airfix should look at kitting in 1/35.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 01, 2008, 02:53:56 am
Don't think you'll see it, Airfix have always been into 1/76 armour traditionally.  Any 1/35 kits they have released have usually been someone elses.  I'd like to see them expand on the JB Models range, rumour was that the guy had plans to make some other kits & got so far with some of them.  I seem to remember he had a Stolly, Bedford RL & a Rapier missile system on his website as future projects, among others.  A Stolly would be good to add to their Saracen & Saladin.  A Salamander would be nice but probably stretching it!
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 01, 2008, 04:48:24 am
Shame somebody doesn't make 1960's/70's vintage British infantry to go with all these, isn't it?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 01, 2008, 05:16:36 am
The Airfix OO NATO Groundcrew set has three armed figures in NBC suits & carrying SLR's, that's all I know of.  I did spot some 1/35 figures in resin at Telford, but not suprisingly they were expensive.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 01, 2008, 09:59:55 am
The thing is, the kit companies must, logically, have tooling lying around for obsolete "Modern" infantry sets dating back to the 60s or 70s, so why not re-pop them as "Cold War Era" infantry?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 01, 2008, 10:47:54 am
It's a definate possibility, Airfix's figures come around regularly, especially the better ones like the NATO ground crew.  The only possible trouble is that re-popping figure sets means that they'll of course be old moulds & not up to todays standards.  Manufacturer's do it all the time, but dodgy old moulds tend to really stand out when it comes to figures.  Saying that, I'm sure there'll be a few 'oldies but goodies' around.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 01, 2008, 05:42:25 pm
Perhaps slightly off the thread but.......

In the late 60s I worked in the motor industry and did some work with Alvis on the early Stalwarts. They wanted some strain gauge readings taken from the rearmost drive shafts during the water-to-land transition and we did some tests at MIRA with a couple of them. It was all pretty straightforward stuff, bar trying not to get soaked to the skin checking out the wiring after the test runs, but the best fun was on the MIRA Open Day.......

The Stalwart being what it was, a darn great floating box with six wheels underneath and a cab on the front, it was the ideal vehicle to give rides around the Cross Country Circuit for the Press. This track was pretty 'robust' and they were all bounced around in the back quite nicely by the time we got to the water splash..... -_-

Perhaps they missed the bit in the briefing where we said 'There will be a substantial wave coming over the front when we reach the water splash, so make sure you wear your capes'. Of course none of them did and they de-boarded looking like drowned rats.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on January 10, 2009, 06:51:15 pm
Here's a mad idea:

1. Take two Saracens and place them one behind the other.

2. Cut the back 1/3rd off the front one, and graft it's rear panel into the hole.

3. cut the front 1/3rd off the back one and make up a new blanking plate for the front of it. Mount BOTH gun rings on the roof.

4. Join the two halves together with a powered, articulated linkage to make a wheeled version of those Volvo two-body Bv.206 snow-mobiles.... :wacko: :thumbsup:

5. Use the left over bits to extend a Saladin to 8x8, with a rear-facing radio-operator/driver behind the turret. The original 40mm-armed concept had just such a fourth crewman, but he was dropped to make more room for ammo when the 76mm was adopted. They also studied 8x8 layouts based on the German WWII armoured cars.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on January 11, 2009, 06:51:05 am
Do it Weave!

Do it Weave!

While trying to find a pic of the Challenger Marskman for the Chieftain/Chally thread, I came across a pic of a Saracen with what looked like a 76mm gun on a slightly larger turret, but can I find the b****r now???

Finally found that upgunned Saracen!  I know nothing about it though, just found it on this Korean site.  It has larger turret of a similar shape to the original & the MG is retained.  Apart from that, it appears to be a common or garden Saracen.

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisSaracenBigGun01.jpg)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisSaracenBigGun02.jpg)

Found it on this Korean language site, so if anyone can read it (my computer doesn't recognise the text, not that it'd make a blind bit of difference) please let us know what it says!
http://kr.blog.yahoo.com/sturmgechutz/folder/41.html (http://kr.blog.yahoo.com/sturmgechutz/folder/41.html)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on January 11, 2009, 09:48:13 am
Egad - nice find Mossie, but I'm not sure what to make of it. The gun looks way to big for the Saracen turret ring: could it be a training vehicle perhaps, with a dummy gun and a built-up turret to "play the bad guy" in exercises?

The engine bay looks like it's been extended forwards too - diesel conversion?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mike Wren on January 11, 2009, 11:04:18 am
looks like a mock up, the main gun looks fixed directly to the turret front & doesn't seem to be able to elevate, maybe it's a film prop?
 :tank:

Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on January 11, 2009, 11:18:16 am
I wondered about that, I zoomed in on the pic & it looks like the very small mantlet does have some limited pitch available.  It's hard to tell, but if it does, it's not a lot.  The turret pattern for the Saracen seems to have been pretty closely followed so I would err on the side of mock-up rather than film prop?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on January 13, 2009, 02:48:48 am
Now that is crazy.  Cool  :ph34r:, but crazy  :banghead:!
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on January 13, 2009, 04:16:44 am
Here's a mad idea:...

Weaver,

You mean kind of like this?

Yep - you got it!  ;D Nicely done.... :thumbsup:

The only thing I'd do different is have the two open gun rails on the rear body instead of a second turret: gives the infantry maximum opportunity to use their own weapons: MILANs, Charlie Gs, GPMGs etc., and that's just Brits!
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on January 14, 2009, 06:33:21 am
The articulated Saracen would have to be called the Crossley Caterpillar, of course..... :wacko:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: famvburg on August 31, 2009, 06:02:46 am
Since I was a little kid in the late '60s - early '70s, one of my fav vehicles was the above. I know its chassis was used for the Saracen APC, Salamnder Airfield Fire Tender & the Stalwart tractor, the coolest of them all, IMHO. I loved that the thing since my Matchbox Cars days! Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on August 31, 2009, 12:04:50 pm
You could seriously up-gun it: just look at the range of weapons fitted to significantly lighter French armoured cars.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: dy031101 on August 31, 2009, 12:24:13 pm
I think it definitely has the potential for a Cockerill Mk.3 90mm gun?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 17, 2010, 02:43:09 pm
Found this half track version of the Saladin on Secret Projects:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/SaladinHalfTrack.png)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 17, 2010, 03:36:56 pm
Another snippet on the Saladin, from Jane's:

Quote
As originally conceived, the FV601(A) was to have had a crew of four and be armed with a 2-pounder (40 mm) gun fitted with a Littlejohn Adaptor to increase the muzzle velocity. But in February 1948 it was decided that the 2-pounder was not powerful enough so a new weapon, the 76 mm gun L5, was designed by the Armament Design Establishment at Fort Halstead but was not ready until 1953.

According to a book I have, there was a FV601A mock up, does anyone have any pics of it?  The Saladin was designed to replace the Daimler armoured car & the requirement was issued in 1946.  This could be a candidate for an extended WWII scenario (not quite '46, but nearly), if there was a more pressing need due to wartime maybe the requirement would have been issued earlier & the FV601A proceeded with until the L5 gun & FV601B was available?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 18, 2010, 04:27:17 am
Here you go:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/Saracenwithpipsqueak.png)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 18, 2010, 09:12:54 am
Thanks Harold!  That looks like a pretty simple conversion, the only real differences apart from the gun that I can spot are the mudguard shape & the position of the headlights.  Can't tell if there are differences to the rear of course.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 18, 2010, 10:09:35 am
Quite a few differences that you can't see from that angle Mossie.

1. The rear of the turret roof is sloped, as per this pre-production Mk.1:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/SaladinMk1.png)


2. The roof hatch arrangement is different, as per this early drawing with a different turret:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/Saladindrawing.png)


I think it also preserves the rear driving position, as per the drawing.

One other minor difference is that it has four smoke dischargers on the rear side turret panels, whereas production ones had six on the forward side panels.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 18, 2010, 10:51:24 am
Thanks Harold, very useful!  The turret makes it a little more difficult.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 18, 2010, 12:22:49 pm
The turret makes it a little more difficult.

The 3-view drawing is quite interesting.  Gives you something to consider other than a 76mm gun armed Saladin.  Maybe a complete turret swap out for something more modern such as a Scorpion or Scimitar turret?  Or something from a Marder IFV?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 18, 2010, 01:53:41 pm
I've tried a Scorpion turret on one: looks a bit lost, to be honest.


Here's another handy pic:

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/SaladinSwingfire.png)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 18, 2010, 02:00:29 pm
Here's a nice colour pic showing desert mods for use in Aden: colour scheme, stowage basket on turret rear and sand channels on front. If anyone's interested in modelling one of these, I've got a full set of pictures of this vehicle, so drop me a PM.

(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/SaladinSharjah.png)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: NARSES2 on December 19, 2010, 02:03:37 am
That 601 with "Pipsqueak" looks really WWII vintage whereas with the bigger gun she moves into the Cold War. Amazing the difference size can make  :rolleyes: :unsure:

Thanks for posting Harold  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehic
Post by: apophenia on December 19, 2010, 03:40:47 pm
That 601 with "Pipsqueak" looks really WWII vintage whereas with the bigger gun she moves into the Cold War...

Keep in mind that Pipsqueak was a squeeze-bore. More akin to post-war HV guns than a garden-variety 2-pdr.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: NARSES2 on December 20, 2010, 01:30:45 am
I realise that Pipsqueak was a squeezebore it's just the look of it is very 2pdr'ish. Also the British used "Squeezebores" towards the latter stages of WWII with the use of the Littlejohn Adaptor, so again in mind's eye I see WWII rather then post war. Showing my age again  :rolleyes: ;D
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on December 20, 2010, 02:36:43 am
I realise that Pipsqueak was a squeezebore it's just the look of it is very 2pdr'ish. Also the British used "Squeezebores" towards the latter stages of WWII with the use of the Littlejohn Adaptor, so again in mind's eye I see WWII rather then post war. Showing my age again  :rolleyes: ;D

Pipsqueak I think you'll find did not use a "Littlejohn adapter".   The Littlejohn was an interesting solution to the problem of giving WWII British Armoured cars which were still primarily armed with 2 Pdr guns some extra armour penetration to make their continued use viable.  However, the users often removed them because they prevented them from firing HE which was considered more useful than AP.   After the war, HECNR was developed, which allowed squeezebore weapons to fire HE.  However, according to Tony Williams, Pipsqueak instead fired APDS - http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/37-40mm.htm

Quote
The final line of this development was the 2 PDR 'Pipsqueak', a postwar gun originally intended as the main armament for the Saladin armoured car. Although a positive link has not been made, it seems probable that the intended cartridge was the long (40x438R) 2 PDR HV (see headstamp on the right). This was designed to fire APDS rounds which would match the penetration of the 'Littlejohn' shot while still allowing HE shells to be fired. In fact the claimed performance was better, the 1,295 m/s shot penetrating 85mm of armour at 60 degrees at 900m. This gun was abandoned when a low-velocity 76mm cannon was selected instead, indicating a shift in role towards infantry fire support. Ironically, the specification is reflected in modern trends towards 30-50mm guns, firing sub-calibre armour piercing projectiles, for light AFVs.

Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: NARSES2 on December 20, 2010, 07:38:45 am
I'm really confusing this arn't I  :banghead:

I didn't mean to say that Pipsqueak used the adaptor but I did think it was a sqeezebore. Obvioulsy reading the bit about APDS I was wrong. I shall go and stand in the naughty corner until I need to go to the loo, which won't be long at my age  :blink:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 20, 2010, 08:42:52 am
Well since CVR(T) came in 76mm (Scorpion) and 30mm (Scimitar) flavours, you could imagine a whiff world where they updated Saladin instead, using the same two weapons. A Saladin with the spare RARDEN out of the Airfix kit looks very like the Pipsqueak version. Maybe the Saladin version could have extra elevation, making it more suitable for anti-aircraft use. Certainly both versions would have the thermal camera (box alongside the CVR(T)'s gun).

The Scorpion 90 also proves beyond doubt (IMHO) that the Saladin could have been fitted with a 90mm Cockerill Mk.II.  :wub:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on December 20, 2010, 04:18:18 pm
The 90mm Cockerill gun was deliberately developed to be a drop-in replacement for the L5 76mm gun.  It has similar inboard length and recoil to the L5 (I suspect it was in fact originally a bored out L5).  The L5 is quite a nice piece of engineering.  Having also observed it firing canister, I know I wouldn't want to be standing in front of it.   An upgunned Saladin wouldn't be out of place, I believe and I'm surprised no one developed one.   Saladins are still going strong in some out of the way places like Indonesia.

Pipsqueak would not have made a suitable AA weapon.  Each round was loaded by hand.  The 30mm RARDEN wasn't a suitable AA weapon either, firing from six round magazines.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on December 20, 2010, 04:24:53 pm
I'm really confusing this arn't I  :banghead:

I didn't mean to say that Pipsqueak used the adaptor but I did think it was a sqeezebore. Obvioulsy reading the bit about APDS I was wrong. I shall go and stand in the naughty corner until I need to go to the loo, which won't be long at my age  :blink:

I once had a discussion with Tony Williams about this after he appealed for info on the Pipsqueak.  Everything claims it was a squeezebore.  I sent him the only reference I had which was in the old Profile on the Saladin and Saracen which repeated the claim.  However Tony had a round for it and it was clearly APDS not APCNR.  He also managed to find more info about it at the PRO so it was obvious that somewhere some misinformation had crept into the military Zeitgeist and a myth was created that it was a squeezebore gun.   Disinformation perhaps?

So, you're saved from the corner.  For now.  I'm in a happy mood with hopes for the Melbourne Test.  ;)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on December 20, 2010, 04:47:00 pm
So if you wanted to go the whole hog & modernise the Saladin, how could it be done?  Lets say two scenarios, a cheap alternative to the Scorpion/Scimitar entering service in the early seventies & an upgrade to smaller armys vehicles, say in the mid-eighties?  I'm talking about the whole kit & caboodle, rather than just the weapons.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehic
Post by: apophenia on December 20, 2010, 04:50:54 pm
rickshaw: you're right. Here's the relevant bit from Williams' website:

"The final line of this development was the 2 PDR 'Pipsqueak', a postwar gun originally intended as the main armament for the Saladin armoured car. Although a positive link has not been made, it seems probable that the intended cartridge was the long (40x438R) 2 PDR HV (see headstamp on the right). This was designed to fire APDS rounds which would match the penetration of the 'Littlejohn' shot while still allowing HE shells to be fired. In fact the claimed performance was better, the 1,295 m/s shot penetrating 85mm of armour at 60 degrees at 900m. This gun was abandoned when a low-velocity 76mm cannon was selected instead, indicating a shift in role towards infantry fire support. Ironically, the specification is reflected in modern trends towards 30-50mm guns, firing sub-calibre armour piercing projectiles, for light AFVs."

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/37-40mm.htm  [BTW, good read on COW gun development, too]

In the photo of 37-40mm rounds, the Pipsqueak's 40x438R casing is shown alongside Bofors 40x311R (L/60) and 40x364R (L/70). Since the British Army was using the L/60 and, from 1953 on, the L/70, wouldn't it have made sense to adopt the Bofors instead of developing an all new 40mm round or adopt the L5 'pumpkin launcher'?

Compared with Pipsqueak, the trade-off would be slightly-reduced performance but with the advantage of some degree of ammo commonality. Compared with the L5, a big reduction in HE but a big jump in muzzle velocity. Anyhoo, the Bofors worked for the CV9040 and certainly would've been better than the clip-loaded Rarden!
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 20, 2010, 06:29:15 pm
What you have to remember about the RARDEN is that it's an expression of the British Army's obsession with accuracy. It was designed to be a "small tank gun" rather than a "big machine gun" and is, indeed very accurate. It loads from three round clips, two of which can be held in the mechanism as one time. Rate of fire for those six rounds is 90 rpm, so it could fire an accurate burst with a fair chance of hitting, say, a hovering helo. I'm not suggesting it's in the same league as a proper autocannon in a dedicated AAA system, just that it's probably worth giving it extra elevation as bonus. It has 40 deg of elevation in the Scimitar anyway, and the extra elevation would also be useful in urban or mountain terrain.

As an alternative, I don't see any reason why you couldn't fire a very sub-calibre APFSDS round out of the L5 for a kinetic anti-armour kill; after all, the French developed such a round for their 81mm breech-loading mortars.




Quote
Posted by: Weaver 

Certainly both versions would have the thermal camera (box alongside the CVR(T)'s gun).


Just realised a couple of issues with that:

1. It's an image intensifier, not a thermal imager.

2. It would have to be on the other side of the gun, with it's door opening the other way. This is because the turret crew in a Saladin sit the opposite way around to a CVR(T) crew, so the gunner (on the left) would need the scope in front of him (it has direct vision optics).

According to an old Jane's I have, there was a scheme to fit the Fox turret to the Saladin hull, but nothing came of it.


For a full upgrade, a diesel engine would be essential and is, I believe, available IRL. You'd want the II sight as above (early '70s) or TI scopes (mid '80s), for all the crew. For NATO use, you'd definately want an NBC system. There's room for a big stowage basket to the rear right of the turret (see my colour pic) so that would be the logical place to put it. The basket and the sand channels also show that you could fit spaced (anti-RPG) armour to the turret and hull front easily enough, but the sides and rear would be more problematic without making the vehicle much wider (remember you have to leave enough clearance for the wheels to steer). Adapting the suspension to take any weight increase could be tricky: it uses longitudinal torsion bars, so it's not as simple as just swapping a coil spring unit for a heftier one.
 
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on December 20, 2010, 09:02:59 pm
So if you wanted to go the whole hog & modernise the Saladin, how could it be done?  Lets say two scenarios, a cheap alternative to the Scorpion/Scimitar entering service in the early seventies & an upgrade to smaller armys vehicles, say in the mid-eighties?  I'm talking about the whole kit & caboodle, rather than just the weapons.

The quickest and more than likely cheapest way in both cases would be replace the turret.  I'd choose either the CVR(T) ones (Scorpion/Scimitar) or perhaps even the CVR(W) (Fox).  There are also numerous other turrets on the market which would upgrade the weapons and the sensors.  The French are particularly fond of producing such things.  It may require a new turret ring though.   Overall such an effort would be cheaper than trying to fit new weapons into the existing turret and then trying to integrate it yourself with new sensors.  One of the mistakes many militaries make is that they either bit off more than they can actually manage or allow capability creep to occur (adding new capabilities while the programme progresses).  The first costs more because integration of differing systems is harder than is usually believed and the second because with added complexity comes cost.   With a complete new turret most of the work's been done and adding it to an existing hull is easier.

The Saladin hull is pretty old and hard to maintain.  It was never a star performer to start with anyway.  I've heard numerous horror stories of long-distance deployments in Saracens and Saladins where crew are using foot pumps to keep the lubrication system going while the speed limiter makes such deployments very time consuming.   I'm a great believer in just scrapping the existing vehicles and replacing them.  Over the life of a military vehicle its usually cheaper and easier than trying to upgrade them.   Unfortunately the bean-counters tend to look at the upfront costs rather than the life-cycle costs.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: NARSES2 on December 21, 2010, 01:18:23 am
  Everything claims it was a squeezebore.  I sent him the only reference I had which was in the old Profile on the Saladin and Saracen which repeated the claim.  However Tony had a round for it and it was clearly APDS not APCNR.  He also managed to find more info about it at the PRO so it was obvious that somewhere some misinformation had crept into the military Zeitgeist and a myth was created that it was a squeezebore gun.   Disinformation perhaps?

So, you're saved from the corner.  For now.  I'm in a happy mood with hopes for the Melbourne Test.  ;)

Thankyou kind sir  ;D I've got that old Profile in the collection, which is probably where I got my info from ?? As you say could have been deliberate disinformation.

Glad I got my forgiveness before the Melbourne Test  ;) ;D :wacko:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehic
Post by: rickshaw on December 21, 2010, 01:27:57 am
rickshaw: you're right. Here's the relevant bit from Williams' website:

"The final line of this development was the 2 PDR 'Pipsqueak', a postwar gun originally intended as the main armament for the Saladin armoured car. Although a positive link has not been made, it seems probable that the intended cartridge was the long (40x438R) 2 PDR HV (see headstamp on the right). This was designed to fire APDS rounds which would match the penetration of the 'Littlejohn' shot while still allowing HE shells to be fired. In fact the claimed performance was better, the 1,295 m/s shot penetrating 85mm of armour at 60 degrees at 900m. This gun was abandoned when a low-velocity 76mm cannon was selected instead, indicating a shift in role towards infantry fire support. Ironically, the specification is reflected in modern trends towards 30-50mm guns, firing sub-calibre armour piercing projectiles, for light AFVs."

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/37-40mm.htm  [BTW, good read on COW gun development, too]

In the photo of 37-40mm rounds, the Pipsqueak's 40x438R casing is shown alongside Bofors 40x311R (L/60) and 40x364R (L/70). Since the British Army was using the L/60 and, from 1953 on, the L/70, wouldn't it have made sense to adopt the Bofors instead of developing an all new 40mm round or adopt the L5 'pumpkin launcher'?

Compared with Pipsqueak, the trade-off would be slightly-reduced performance but with the advantage of some degree of ammo commonality. Compared with the L5, a big reduction in HE but a big jump in muzzle velocity. Anyhoo, the Bofors worked for the CV9040 and certainly would've been better than the clip-loaded Rarden!

The Bofors 40mm is quite a complex gun.  It also has a long inturret length.  I suspect you'd find that to use it, it would also either have to be turned on its side or inverted to allow access to the ammunition feed, which in turn would require a new mounting to be designed for it.  The Bofors is not quite the panacea it appears.  Even the Swedes you'll notice don't use the weapon until the 1990s, how many years after it was first designed?   The first modern use of the Bofors action that I know of was the Germans with their "escort tank" (based on the Marder MICV) back in the late 1970s and that was the 57mm gun and they had to invert it (with all the associate feed problems) to fit it inside a turret.  The CV9040 turns it on its side IIRC.   The 2 Pdr and its derivatives are actually quite a compact weapon, hence the ability to fit it into quite small turrets.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on December 21, 2010, 06:07:05 am
So if you wanted to go the whole hog & modernise the Saladin, how could it be done?  Lets say two scenarios, a cheap alternative to the Scorpion/Scimitar entering service in the early seventies & an upgrade to smaller armys vehicles, say in the mid-eighties?  I'm talking about the whole kit & caboodle, rather than just the weapons.

The quickest and more than likely cheapest way in both cases would be replace the turret.  I'd choose either the CVR(T) ones (Scorpion/Scimitar) or perhaps even the CVR(W) (Fox).  There are also numerous other turrets on the market which would upgrade the weapons and the sensors.  The French are particularly fond of producing such things.  It may require a new turret ring though.   Overall such an effort would be cheaper than trying to fit new weapons into the existing turret and then trying to integrate it yourself with new sensors.  One of the mistakes many militaries make is that they either bit off more than they can actually manage or allow capability creep to occur (adding new capabilities while the programme progresses).  The first costs more because integration of differing systems is harder than is usually believed and the second because with added complexity comes cost.   With a complete new turret most of the work's been done and adding it to an existing hull is easier.

The Saladin hull is pretty old and hard to maintain.  It was never a star performer to start with anyway.  I've heard numerous horror stories of long-distance deployments in Saracens and Saladins where crew are using foot pumps to keep the lubrication system going while the speed limiter makes such deployments very time consuming.   I'm a great believer in just scrapping the existing vehicles and replacing them.  Over the life of a military vehicle its usually cheaper and easier than trying to upgrade them.   Unfortunately the bean-counters tend to look at the upfront costs rather than the life-cycle costs.

On the other hand, you could still do the Whiff by having the production line stay open for advanced versions, so the "upgrades" are actually factory-fresh "second generation" vehicles.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on May 26, 2011, 03:58:33 pm
Spotted these proposed Stolly variants on Secret Projects, a helicopter landing platform, toting a SAM system (possibly PT.428 or Mauler) & mother of all whifgasms, armed with Blue Water!
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4055.0/highlight,blue%20water+stalwart.html (http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4055.0/highlight,blue%20water+stalwart.html)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisStalwartBlueSteelRapierLandingPlatform01.jpg)

From this Alvis advert:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisStalwartBlueWaterSAMandLandingPlatform02.jpg)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: pyro-manic on May 26, 2011, 05:05:41 pm
Excellent find, Mossie! I really wish someone would kit any of this family (especially the Stalwart) in 1:35.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on May 26, 2011, 05:18:34 pm
Tamiya did the Saladin in 1/35th some years ago, but I understand it's a bit hard to find these days.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on May 26, 2011, 05:35:57 pm
Tamiya did the Saladin in 1/35th some years ago, but I understand it's a bit hard to find these days.

Accurate Armour and Firing Line also do a Saladin and IIRC a Saracen in 1:35.  Accurate Armour IIRC does a Stalwart as well.  All are multimedia kits with the attendant prices those sorts of kits entail.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: icchan on May 26, 2011, 07:55:38 pm
Talking about an antiair version, I wonder if you couldn't do something akin to the M163.  Take one of the aircraft guns, in this case a 30mm ADEN perhaps, and make it fit?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on May 26, 2011, 09:31:17 pm
Talking about an antiair version, I wonder if you couldn't do something akin to the M163.  Take one of the aircraft guns, in this case a 30mm ADEN perhaps, and make it fit?

Anything is possible with sufficient time and money.  I would imagine you'd need two or more ADENs to have a viable AAA system.  The ADEN is perhaps the slowest ROF & Muzzle Velocity of the MK213 derived revolver cannons that were developed after WWII.

If you used a turret, I'd recommend something like the WWII Grizzly AA tank's.   Alternatively, a Crusader/Cromwell Mk.II AA tank turret would work.  With radar added of course.   There was a twin 30mm turret developed for the Abbot but it was never taken up (it had visual only aiming).

Weaver's pictures of a SAM system are interesting as they depict the Mauler SAM system which only ever reached prototype form.

Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: famvburg on May 27, 2011, 09:30:12 am


     It's not a kit & not 1/35, but 1/32 & it's a pretty nice model from Airfix.
http://cgi.ebay.com/AIRFIX-Military-Series-ALVIS-STALWART-1-32-EXCELLENT-/190535620694?pt=UK_Toys_Games_ToySoldiers_EH&hash=item2c5cced856


Excellent find, Mossie! I really wish someone would kit any of this family (especially the Stalwart) in 1:35.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: IanH on May 27, 2011, 12:31:43 pm
Bit of news for you guys - up until a few years ago, Saladin was in the running to supply a small Middle Eastern Country.  A number were refurbished to As New.  The deal fell through, and they were sold on the Civvie Market (One was seen at the NE MVT Show in Durham a couple of years back).
The 76 is still a viable weapon, bearing in mind the type of operations we are engaged in ATM...
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Martin H on June 06, 2011, 11:45:45 am
The 76 is still a viable weapon, bearing in mind the type of operations we are engaged in ATM...

Well the Kuwaiti operated Saladins are reputid to have taken down at least one Iraqi T-72 during the invasion.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: IanH on June 07, 2011, 12:02:17 am
The 76 is still a viable weapon, bearing in mind the type of operations we are engaged in ATM...

Well the Kuwaiti operated Saladins are reputid to have taken down at least one Iraqi T-72 during the invasion.
AFAIK It was only the risk of Carbon Monoxide poisoning that killed the 76mm in Brit Service.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on June 07, 2011, 01:42:43 am
The 76 is still a viable weapon, bearing in mind the type of operations we are engaged in ATM...

Well the Kuwaiti operated Saladins are reputid to have taken down at least one Iraqi T-72 during the invasion.
AFAIK It was only the risk of Carbon Monoxide poisoning that killed the 76mm in Brit Service.

That certainly helped but what clinched its retirement was the Treaty on Conventional Armed Forces in Europe which classified all AFVs carrying a gun larger than 75mm as a "tank".  The UK preferred to have more Challengers than Saladins and Scorpions and so opted to retire them.  Which is why NATO also saw a massive "cascading" of first class MBTs down to the poorer members and the retirement of the older ones from there.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: GTX on June 10, 2011, 12:27:18 pm
Excellent find, Mossie! I really wish someone would kit any of this family (especially the Stalwart) in 1:35.

Have a look here (http://www.djparkins.com/acatalog/1_35th_Vehicles.html)

Hmm, I wonder...maybe a Rapier Anti-Aircraft Missile System mounted on the rear of a Stalwart Mk.2???

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on August 09, 2011, 02:54:21 am
Unusual one, a Salamnder used as a friction test vehicle for aircraft landing gear.  The centre wheels have been removed & aircraft gear has been mounted underneath.
http://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=1134 (http://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=1134)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisSalamanderFrictionTestvehicle.jpg)

Gives an impression of what the Salamander might look like as a standard truck, either 4x4 or 6x6.  The whole vehicle has been heavily modified, with a more standard civvy cab as well.

The Alvis PV-1 test vehicle that lead to to the Stolly also has a civvy like appearance:
http://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=1135 (http://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=1135)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisPV-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on September 14, 2011, 07:00:23 am
Some Stolly goodness on this site:
http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/amphi/A/alvisspecial/stally.html (http://www.amphibiousvehicle.net/amphi/A/alvisspecial/stally.html)

Here's some more unusual ones:

Flim prop painted up in Op Granby/Desert Storm colours.  Don't think any Stollies made there, most were retired by the early 80's IIRC.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisStalwartFlimPropDesert.jpg)

Another film prop in a Sci Fi-sy guise.
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisStalwartFlimPropSciFi.jpg)

Terry'll love this one!!!  Pink(!) Stolly for a make-up ad, with lipstick rocket launcher!
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/AlvisStalwartPink.jpg)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: RotorheadTX on September 14, 2011, 07:13:36 am
Here's some more unusual ones:
Flim prop painted up in Op Granby/Desert Storm colours.  Don't think any Stollies made there, most were retired by the early 80's IIRC.

Terry'll love this one!!!  Pink(!) Stolly for a make-up ad, with lipstick rocket launcher!

This thread just keeps getting better!!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Hobbes on September 14, 2011, 08:38:10 am
The landing gear test vehicle is interesting.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: kitnut617 on September 14, 2011, 09:56:27 am
Many years ago, probably late 60's, early 70's, there was a TV program where various vehicles would race down a hill, then across a swamp/bog, then back up the opposite bank.  The Stalwart was used by various groups in these races going up against Austin Champs, Land Rovers of various types, Mini Mokes (with two engines  ;) ) and other thrown-together 4WD's.  Most times the Stawart won, but I can't remember the name of the show ---  :banghead:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 14, 2011, 12:48:54 pm
The Twini Moke!  ;D

What a madhouse that was to drive! The prototype had two INDEPENDENT engine-gearbox drive trains and two gearlevers, one in front of the other. That means you could be in reverse on one engine and 1st on the other, LOADS of wheelspin at both ends but in opposite directions, and no actual movement at all!  ;D

Eventually we tied both gearboxes to one gearlever which was much more sensible, but bizarrely it worked best with two different final drive ratios, the front one being higher than the rear for some reason. But it was VERY quick, as it had two Cooper spec. engines, and through the middle of Oxford would blow the doors of anything with wheels, and that included motorbikes.

Happy memories.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: kitnut617 on September 14, 2011, 02:07:21 pm
Did you race it through the mud hole on TV then ?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 14, 2011, 03:13:34 pm
It wasn't me Robert, I was nuffink to do wiv it guv, 'onest.........  ;D

The Twini-Moke was built in response to a request from the US Army, of all places, but they lost interest in it because the ground clearance was too low and Austin monthballed the project. I think they built at least three Twinis, and they were all different to each other, and at least one was sent to the US, presumably to the Aberdeen Proving Grounds. The Austin Memories web site says that the rear engine on some of them was changed to an automatic to solve the gear changing problems, which would make some sense.

Piccies below filched from their Moke page.

(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/2705/twinia.jpg)

Top down view of the two gear stick version


(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2957/twinib.jpg)

The two gear sticks themselves, before they were connected.


(http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8431/twinic.jpg)

The rear engine in its box.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on September 14, 2011, 04:23:47 pm
I always understood that it was an Australian Army request for a four-wheel drive Moke.   I've seen the one, of IIRC two, which were used on trials downunder.  Its now preserved in the RACT Museum.  AIUI, the main objection to its use was complexity and low clearance.  The fitters didn't like the idea of trying to keep two engines in tune and of course two gearboxes, etc.

Personally, I always enjoyed the Mokes the Army had.  They were in service downunder from the early 1970s through to the late 1980s.  Loads of fun to drive and if you got bogged, you could literally lift it out of trouble with four strong men.  ;)

AIUI, BMW have been working off and on, on a new Moke using the new Mini chassis for about a decade.   There are still original Mokes going strong downunder and they remain a very popular vehicle.  If BMW extracted their digits, they'd have a big seller I think with a new Moke.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on September 14, 2011, 06:58:19 pm
It's possible to do a similar twin-engined setup with Citroen 2CVs.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 15, 2011, 12:37:52 am
...and John Cooper did it with a racing Mini Cooper S too!

They ran it in a Nurburgring 24 hr event and were running in a good position till something broke. We had the early Twini Moke at Pressed Steel to measure torque levels on both sets of drive shafts, at least that was the official reason.

Actually we just liked burning off all the local fast guys who thought they were the bee's knees.  ;D
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on September 15, 2011, 02:51:06 am
Flying Dish Rags!  Even the standard Mini was quicker than people gave it credit for.  My Dad had a Clubman 1300 (not a Cooper) when I was a teenager, & we were driving down a long back road when a boy racer in an Escort blue past us, his mates giving us various signs out the back.  My Dad let them get ahead, dropped a gear then raced forward right up to their bumper & blew past them again.  They were gobsmacked to say the least!  My Dad had been a grass track racer & drove a Fire Engine for a living & also realised they had four big lads in & wouldn't be able to get the acceleration of the lightweight Mini.

Thread creap at it's best! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Rheged on September 15, 2011, 04:38:31 am
Many years ago, probably late 60's, early 70's, there was a TV program where various vehicles would race down a hill, then across a swamp/bog, then back up the opposite bank.  The Stalwart was used by various groups in these races going up against Austin Champs, Land Rovers of various types, Mini Mokes (with two engines  ;) ) and other thrown-together 4WD's.  Most times the Stawart won, but I can't remember the name of the show ---  :banghead:

I think it was a twice a year  Autocross competition  between the various services motoring clubs.  There was a little Haflinger did quite well, and the old Standard Vanguard  RAF  staff car was an unexpectedly agile vehicle. On one occasion there was a Scammell recovery vehicle that  looked as though it would be overtaken by continental drift, but it ALWAYS finished, and quite often towing someone out, too.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on September 15, 2011, 05:27:07 am
The turret makes it a little more difficult.

The 3-view drawing is quite interesting.  Gives you something to consider other than a 76mm gun armed Saladin.  Maybe a complete turret swap out for something more modern such as a Scorpion or Scimitar turret?  Or something from a Marder IFV?
I've tried a Scorpion turret on one: looks a bit lost, to be honest.

You could go the other way.  I've found a thread on Secret Projects that mentions a proposed Vickers 13 ton tank.  It would have used a Saladin turret dropped onto a modfied FV433 Abbot SPG chassis with Vigilant missiles mounted on the sides.  No pics of the 13 ton tank, although the thread contains a drawing of the similar Canadian Bobcat.  It pre-dated the Scorpion/Scimitar.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6569.msg55736.html#msg55736
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on September 15, 2011, 08:29:20 am
Now all you've got to find is a 1/76th Abbot.....

(Yeah I know there's probably a resin one)
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on September 16, 2011, 01:49:13 am
Cromwell Models, although I'm not sure what happened to them.  They started p!ss!ng people off with unfulfilled orders then seem to have dissapeared so if you can find one, you'll be lucky.  Reading between the lines on the SP thread the hull on the Vickers 13 ton tank might have been different so might be able to modify something similar like a Scorpion or even use a M113 running gear.  If you contact UK75 on there he might be able to pull out that drawing he menitoned?
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on September 16, 2011, 03:19:36 am
Cromwell Models, although I'm not sure what happened to them.  They started p!ss!ng people off with unfulfilled orders then seem to have dissapeared so if you can find one, you'll be lucky.  Reading between the lines on the SP thread the hull on the Vickers 13 ton tank might have been different so might be able to modify something similar like a Scorpion or even use a M113 running gear.  If you contact UK75 on there he might be able to pull out that drawing he menitoned?

From what I can gather they no longer produce an Abbott.  It appears they are also extremely difficult to track down what they do produce and to purchase.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehic
Post by: apophenia on September 17, 2011, 07:50:12 pm
20mm and 1/76 are the same, right  :unsure:  If so, S&S (aka Sands Models) advertised a 20mm Abbot earlier this year.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehic
Post by: rickshaw on September 17, 2011, 08:23:23 pm
20mm and 1/76 are the same, right  :unsure:  If so, S&S (aka Sands Models) advertised a 20mm Abbot earlier this year.

Not quite but close enough.  The "mm" scales are ill defined, with different designers/manufacturers using differing standards.   Some will claim "20mm" is from the bottom of the base of the figure to the eye or the head or from the feet to the head.   Putting two such manufacturer's products side-by-side its noticeable the differences.   "1/76" OTOH is an expression of a ratio and so therefore the measurements remain the same whether you use millimetres or inches.  Another way of expressing it is "4mm to the foot" and then you have the railway modeller's "HO" scale, which is actually "Half 'O' scale" (not sure what "O" scale is though).
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: NARSES2 on September 18, 2011, 02:04:43 am
If mixing 1/76 with 20mm be carefull. A lot of 20mm figs are nearer 25mm and look way out of scale. Stick with the smaller figure ranges and you'll be ok.

As for O scale, it was origionaly O guage and refered to a standard guage for the tracks. The scale for the trains used varied between manufacturer. Anything from 1/43 to 1/48, some designs were even 1/64.

Chris
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: rickshaw on September 18, 2011, 04:50:14 am
Another problem I have, not so much with the figures but the vehicles is that when they say the vehicles are "20mm" scale - what do they mean?   Are they 1/72, 1/76 or some other realistic scale or they scaled to their figures, which as we've mentioned may be some other scale entirely?  :banghead:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Steel Penguin on September 18, 2011, 05:10:56 am
any, all, or none of the above.....
they may be consistantly scaled to a matmatical value, may be scaled to one set of figs, from one range by one sculpter, or just made from a set of plans photcopyer reduced to get the guy stood next to it to the same size as one of the figures on his table..
generaly, the vehicles will be consistant internaly on a range.. but not always.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: NARSES2 on September 19, 2011, 07:10:09 am
Exactly as Steel Penguin says. 20mm vehicles will fit that manufactures figures (although I know some that dont  :banghead:) and for any other it's buyer beware
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: DarrenP on October 20, 2011, 01:55:00 pm
The Saracen was heavily used in Northern Ireland as part of Op Banner. More Internal security variants would have been a good devlopment. There was a few humber Pig specialist vehicles including riot screens. Saladin and Salamander water cannon's might have been interesting.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on April 15, 2016, 05:17:26 pm
Saladin turret on a cut-down Chinese Type 63 (YW531) APC chassis produced by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2467/3567178153_9b9110a51b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2598/4004453530_6223a4b27f_z.jpg?zz=1)

It looks like what they did was cut a horizontal slice out of the hull and then moved the engine to the back. Damned neat job for a 'garage mod'. :thumbsup:

Thanks to Logan Hartke for correctly identifying what they did.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: NARSES2 on April 16, 2016, 05:19:15 am
That's neat. Has the look of an ultimate Pz II model
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: pirx on October 22, 2016, 04:00:47 am

New Stalwart kit from ACE:   http://acemodel.com.ua/en/model/654    :wub: :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on June 27, 2017, 06:03:22 am
Just got the S&M Models Mk.1 and Mk.2

The Mk.1 is definitely going in BAS colours as loaned to them by Alvis in the 1960s as a publicity stunt.

I've been considering the Mk.2 as a movie-prop moon buggy for use in the (what-if) third series of Space 1999, or a 21st century re-imagining/re-boot of the same. Thinking about the background, I hit on the idea of Joss Whedon, still sore from the cancellation of Firefly and with an unsatisfied sci-fi bee in his bonnet, taking the project on. Then whadda ya know? I'm researching Stalwarts and I find that there actually WAS a Stollie in Firefly, if only briefly, with just the sort of cabin-on-the-loadbed modification I was thinking of, so that makes it even more credible that it would find it's way into another Joss Whedon series (Whedon has a reputation for re-using actors he likes from one series to the next, so why not props?)

(http://www.imcdb.org/i080865.jpg)

It appear briefly (few seconds) during the Battle of Serenity Valley sequence in the 2 hour pilot.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on June 27, 2017, 07:51:31 am
Back on page 6, I posted a stolly that looks identical to that one, except it's marked "Marshal" and in a stripy desert scheme.  In the link on the same post it also appears in grey, but that could be primer.  Looks like it may have been used in several shows.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Old Wombat on June 27, 2017, 08:11:00 am
Found this one, too, from the Stallone Judge Dredd.

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/SaracenJudgeDredd02.jpg)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/General/SaracenJudgeDredd01.jpg)

(https://www.therpf.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=180723&d=1367852393)

Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on June 27, 2017, 04:55:50 pm
Back on page 6, I posted a stolly that looks identical to that one, except it's marked "Marshal" and in a stripy desert scheme.  In the link on the same post it also appears in grey, but that could be primer.  Looks like it may have been used in several shows.

Yeah that's definately the same one. Doesn't surprise me that Firefly used an off-the-shelf vehicle: they were always short of money. Their bad-guy trooper uniforms were the Starship Trooper ones (they've been in loads of low-budget sci-fi flicks mind). For one episode they made a 'medical shuttle' out of a 3/4 scale fibreglass Hind D with the rotors taken off and two plastic dustbins grafted onto the sides as engines!
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Mossie on June 29, 2017, 02:37:05 am
Looking even closer, the grey version shows the same 'airlock' thingy on the left side and horizontal pipework on the right.  On the 'Op Granby' prop that I posted, it's got the same pipework on the right and the sides are slightly canted.  There's a good chance that it's also the same machine, without the extension on top.  Assuming it is, that's at least four guises for the same Stolly.
Title: Re: Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles
Post by: Weaver on June 29, 2017, 05:54:14 am
Yes I agree: the tall version has a horizontal join line that corresponds to the short version's roof line. My guess is that the extension can be detached for different looks.