Author Topic: AIM-54 Phoenix  (Read 17894 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline retro_seventies

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
    • http://
AIM-54 Phoenix
« on: October 08, 2004, 08:19:07 pm »
Quote
The Phoenix missile, once one of the U.S. Navy’s most famous weapons, is no more. As of Sept. 30, the AIM-54 air-to-air missile has left the Navy’s operational inventory.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=391...91431&C=america

 :(  
"Computer games don't affect kids. I mean, if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristin Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Don't need no stinking instructions
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3380
  • What-If's "Uncle Jeffry"
    • http://www.facebook.com/jeffryfontaine
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2004, 02:42:42 pm »
Losing the beyond visual range (BVR) capability of the AIM-54 is a real shame.  It is most unfortunate that there is no way to integrate the AIM-54 with the F-18 to provide a long range intercept missile to augment the AIM-120 AMRAAM and the AIM-9 Sidewinder.  While the AIM-120 AMRAAM is capable of achieving BVR kills, it could never come close to the range of the Phoenix in its present form or lethality. 

I guess in my version of reality there would have been an option of this kind to continue to employ the AIM-54 as the heavy-weight air intercept missile for killing bombers and cruise missiles at extreme range from the fleet.  After all, you can't count on your AEGIS equipped surface combatants to counter every threat.  

An excellent WHIF opportunity exists with the F-18 to arm it with the AIM-54. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 04:34:37 am by Jeffry Fontaine »
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline retro_seventies

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
    • http://
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2004, 08:02:12 pm »
Quote
I don't happen to have any Phoenix missiles at hand, otherwise I'd have stuck some on my current projects (S-37, Eurofighter, Rafale, F-15) as a tribute.

absolutely!

the aim-54's that i have will certainly be finding their way onto the models that i am building (building is a pretty liberal interpretation at the moment - trimming, prepping and putting back in the box is more like it) - the vg phantom that i REALLY REALLY WILL finish before easter if it kills me (remember her barry?) has a couple of them, the fixed wing tomcat (israeli) will have them, and i have an intruder idea that may use them too....

remember the missileer?



the f6d missileer, a bvr interceptor concept, based on the skyknight....weeeeeelll, i'm going to make an intruder based missileer....

silly possibly, but i think she'll look great in marines colours.... :wub:

 
"Computer games don't affect kids. I mean, if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." Kristin Wilson, Nintendo Inc, 1989.

Offline nev

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 12406
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2004, 09:11:43 am »
Lets not forget the AIM-54 & AWG-9 are 30 year old pieces of electronics - both in design and construction.  Can you imagine trying to keep these things going?  Where are you going to source the spares from?  Where do you get a 30 year old transistor from and how much will it cost?

Besides, all the talk of its long range & multi-kill capabilities is just that - talk.  They've never proved their worth in a real life combat situation.  Incredible, when you consider the amount of action that the US has seen in the last 30 years that they have no combat record to speak of...
Between almost-true and completely-crazy, there is a rainbow of nice shades - Tophe


Sales of Airfix kits plummeted in the 1980s, and GCSEs had to be made easier as a result - James May

Offline elmayerle

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6365
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2004, 12:08:46 pm »
Quote
I'd keep the missile bodies, fit new motors and an AMRAAM-based guidance system. As for AWG-9, I think an updated version of the APG-71 (I think) used in the F-14D would still work.
Though you'd likely be able to fit a larger antenna than the AMRAAM has, a virtue of hte larger diameter missile body.  I think, jsut on general principles, I'd want to replace the warhead, too.  *G* It'd be interesting to find a good brochure on the Mike-Phoenix proposal that a combined McDD-Hughes team made over a decade ago to the Japanese to rework/replace their Nike-Hercules SAM's.  The Japanese bought Patirots instead.
"Reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it."
--Jane Wagner and Lily Tomlin

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Don't need no stinking instructions
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3380
  • What-If's "Uncle Jeffry"
    • http://www.facebook.com/jeffryfontaine
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2004, 01:59:17 pm »
Though you'd likely be able to fit a larger antenna than the AMRAAM has, a virtue of hte larger diameter missile body.  I think, jsut on general principles, I'd want to replace the warhead, too.  It'd be interesting to find a good brochure on the Nike-Phoenix proposal that a combined McDD-Hughes team made over a decade ago to the Japanese to rework/replace their Nike-Hercules SAM's.
There was also a proposal for a "Sea Phoenix" at one time to replace the NATO Sea Sparrow system.  Though it never got much further than the usual talk and artistic portrayals, it did look quite convincing and effective, almost as convincing as the Navy 20mm Vulcan CIWS mounted on the HEMTT to defend Patriot batteries against incoming anti-radar missiles. 
 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 05:16:26 pm by Jeffry Fontaine »
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline viper29_ca

  • Scratchbuilds the entire model
  • ****
  • Posts: 683
    • Elm City Hobbies
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2004, 04:44:47 pm »
The US Navy may not have scored many, if any kills with Phoenix missiles, but the Iranian Air Force has over 150 kills using F-14s, and about 30 or so of those with Phoenix Missiles, so its not like they have no kills at all. Of course there is no word on how many missiles they fired to get their 30+ kills, but I doubt they had that many missiles to start with.
Thanks
Scott
Elm City Hobbies

http://www.elmcityhobbies.com



Offline elmayerle

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6365
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2004, 08:48:02 am »
As a "what-if" for strike purposes, how about an air-to-ground modification of the AIM-54 that bears the same realtionship to it as the AGM-76 did to the AIM-47?
"Reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it."
--Jane Wagner and Lily Tomlin

Offline Damian2

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2134
  • Ka-Ching!
    • My Deviantart page
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2005, 11:39:19 am »
Hi all!

I've been looking at my little stash of weapons and I've been thinking of some possible hardware to hang under my soon to be WHIFFs...

So far I have:

AGM-154A SOAP: This is the Stand Off Attack Phoenix, the US military after looking long and hard at the AIM-154 Phoenix saw a potential for a medium range air-to-ground weapons system. Stripping out the air-to-air radar and fitting in a TERCOM system (possibly a GPS unit instead?) for course guidance and an IIR seaker for terminal phase guidance and using a smaller rocket motor allowed for a larger warhead for demolition useage or a container type weapons dispenser for bomblets...

And well thats about it...the BRIMSTONE system already exists, as does HOBOS type guidance packages etc...

What other whacky ideas can you think of? :)

 :cheers:
Damian
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Offline PolluxDeltaSeven

  • Full scale Arrow in basement
  • *****
  • Posts: 1127
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2005, 06:01:49 pm »
Long time ago I think about a two-stage Phoenix, the AIM-152...

A 7.75 meters longer Phoenix (instead of 4 meters) with 3 AMRRAM inside. Of course, the AMRAAM have retractable wings and tails...

The Phoenix engine is replaced by a more powerfull and longer range engine, a reactor/statoreactor, and the radar of the missile is replaced by a reduce model of the AESA radar... This radar could detect more aircraft, follow them and choose the target for the AMRAAM... It is also a LPI (Low Probability of Interception) radar...


This Super Phoenix AIM-152 could be use as an anti-AWACS or anti-tanker missile, or even against major concentrations of bomber and fighters... In this case, the Phoenix is used at maximale speed, the engine in Statoreactor Position, in some balistic trajectory. The first stage (the Phoenix missile) has a range of 130 km and the second stage (the AMRAAMs) a range of 80km (they are fired at Mach 4!! So they have a great range!). One or two AMRAAM are designed for the AWACS/tanker, the other one to destroy one of the escort fighter, if there is an escort...
Of course, there is no fighter able to guide the missile: a fighter airborn radar with a range of 220km doesn't exist... But the missile is build to be shoot at stand off distances...
The target is designed to the AIM-152 by an AWACS or a closer fighter (or even by a ground radar or a Battlefield Satellite [another What If ;) ] ) and the target localisation is given to the AIM-152 by Liaison 16 or a Sat Com...

The AIM-152 could also be used as an Combat Air Patrol drone...
An alternative nose with FLIR and camera allowed an operator to pilote the missile.
For that mission, the engine is used in Reactor Position. It allowed a very long patrol range, more than 2 hours at a speed of near Mach 1...
Of course, the attack range is only 60km for the AMRAAMs, but the missiles are more stealthy, more difficult to intercept and as deadly as a classical fighter... And they could do critical and difficult missions without the risk of pilote's death...

When the programme was lauch, there were 2 differents version: the AIM-152A for anti-AWACS missions, and the AIQ-152B used as an air-to-air UCAV...
But engineers managed in building a reactor/statoreactor combined, and a modular nose is the respons for the guidance system...






The AIM-152 enter in operationnal service in June 2002 in the US Navy. A F-14D could carry two AIM-152 under fuselage...
When the Tomcat were decomissioned, in 2007, Boeing has yet modified the Super Hornet, also able to carry 2 missiles (2 AIM-9X, 4 AMRAAMs, 2 AIM-152 and 3 Tanks  for the classic configuration)...

In 2009, the missile get into operationnal service in USAF under F-15C (two of them carried, one under each modified CFT) and, the year later, under E-3 AWACS (4 missiles could be carried, the E-3 Sentry is indeed the only aircraftable to use the AIM-152 without the help of another external sensor, and the AIM-152 is a more economic escort than F-15 and F-22) The immortal B-52 was modified in 2011 to be AIM-152 capable.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 06:19:25 pm by Jeffry Fontaine »
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

Online Hobbes

  • Stores peanuts in his mailbox
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6212
    • Acme Engineering
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2005, 12:36:25 am »
The Phoenix motor would be a good candidate to power a bunker buster: its high speed gives good ground penetration.
You could modify the Standard with an extra rocket stage, like the Standard ER SAM, for longer range. This should be easy enough to model, too: the booster is just a plain cylinder with four tail fins.
The JP-233 could use a jet engine and wings, to make it a standoff weapon.
Same for CBU-* cluster bombs.  

Offline Howard of Effingham

  • Tried to ask about GARDENING! and now has to live with the shame.
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3532
  • Does like gardening contrary to popular belief
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2005, 07:23:25 am »
brimstone in the 'container' that JP233 munitions were loaded in would be an
interesting idea as i don't like the loading arrangement as is being tested on the
GR4 Tornado. it just doesn't look right at all.

 :tornado:

t.
www.beanstalkcharity.org.uk/    

proud member of the following IPMS [UK] SIG's

Special Schemes, South Atlantic, What-If?, Recce and USAF

also a very proud member of the Handley Page Association

Offline Damian2

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2134
  • Ka-Ching!
    • My Deviantart page
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2005, 04:46:46 am »
Quote
brimstone in the 'container' that JP233 munitions were loaded in would be an
interesting idea as i don't like the loading arrangement as is being tested on the
GR4 Tornado. it just doesn't look right at all.

 :tornado:

t.
It does look kinda silly doesn't it?

I've also got another weapons concept, a modified ASAT missile, again it would either be configured as a weapons dispenser or solid warhead. I still need to come up with the guidance package and mission profile.

-Damian
Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

Davey B pretendin' to work

  • Guest
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2005, 04:59:04 am »
When I (eventually) work my way round to the Academy MiG-23 I've earmarked for carrier duties, it'll be armed with the AS-8 'Keith' anti-ship missile. This'd be an AA-6 with the engine replaced by a single, slower-burning boost/sustainer unit, larger warhead and an active radar homing unit "borrowed" by the KGB from the Swedish Rb04 anti-ship missile  :P

Dave  :cheers:  

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Don't need no stinking instructions
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3380
  • What-If's "Uncle Jeffry"
    • http://www.facebook.com/jeffryfontaine
Re: AIM-54 Phoenix
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2008, 06:09:18 pm »
How about this for a WHIF AAM, a stretched Phoenix with two stages instead of just one?  I have a large surplus of these missiles courtesy of the Hasegawa weapons sets, far more missiles than I have F-14 Tomcats.  It would require two AIM-54 Phoenix missile shapes in the scale of your choice.  The first missile will remain intact, the second missile will become the booster by cutting the forward end of the missile off just forward of the fins where the warhead section begins.  Or you can cut it just behind the radome to create a very large booster motor.  Take the second missile and glue it to the rear of the first missile and you will have your extended range AIM-54 or a late model Eagle AAM.  This concept could also be adapted to the Falcon missiles and with a bit of creativity maybe the Sparrow missile as well, creating a whole family of extended range air to air missiles. 

Some other exotic looking weapons can be created by taking 1/72nd scale Exocet missiles and clipping the large wings the end result is a rather sleek looking missile with tail control surfaces that looks like it would be an excellent AAM, ARM, or an AGM in 1/48th scale. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 05:08:48 am by Jeffry Fontaine »
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg