Author Topic: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates  (Read 1924 times)

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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2016, 04:28:38 pm »

  • While the USAF stopped overflights over the Soviet Union in 1960 by manned aircraft: Did the RAF?
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Offline sandiego89

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2016, 07:04:40 pm »
Kendra, I am not so sure the UK and the US "came to different conclusions" as you state.  During the cold war there were numerous different aircraft and crews with a variety of profiles.  Both started with high altitude, penetration, and went increasingly to low level, and more reliance on stand off weapons as defenses got more sophisticated.  Routes and targets varied greatly, and some were much more difficult.  All crews understood that there would be some that got through, some would not and all understood the world would never be the same if an all out nuclear exchange happened.  After the first strikes your home base and family might be gone, you may not be able to find a tanker, and indeed some flight profiles called for recovery in neutral places like Iran, or as the old joke went: "fly to the East or the Urals, bail out and find a nice Russian woman to spend the rest of your life with..."

There was some sharing of intelligence and coordination, but both countries were prepared to go it alone if the circumstances dictated, and many targets were redundantly targeted to ensure a kill.  Eventually the SIOP plan came into being with US forces, and with nuclear sharing programs. 

There were indeed some performance and capability differences between different airframes. All smart planners tried to maximize the capabilities of their respective airframes.  Some were going to have the cards stacked more against them.  I do not envy the F-104 crews that would fly at ultra low level with an eye patch to save their sight from the nuclear flash, nor the early P2V crews that would have been JATO'd off a carrier on a one way mission.   Some had better electronics, some had better all weather performance, etc- but getting into a "which was better debate" between fleets with very different requirements is really tough, and often is futile.   

Both countries had cunning planners and dedicated crews that were ready to execute the mission. 

Confidence could vary between the target, the defenses, the weather, your airframe, the weapons, equipment and your training.  Some were likely more confident than others.  Flying a B-52 over the Arctic and unleashing cruise missiles form long distances might instill higher confidence than going to "downtown" Moscow.   

Both had rules, some were more flexible than others.  SAC was indeed quite procedural, but again it is futile to get into the "better" debate.  Naval crews seemed to allow for greater flexibility.   Some routes had specific routes, waypoints and profiles. Most had a very specific target. 

All had courage and dedication, and would have done their best to get through. Luckily they never had to.  Bless them all. 

-Dave

 
Dave "Sandiego89"
Chesapeake, Virginia, USA

Offline KJ_Lesnick

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2016, 04:52:46 pm »
PR19_Kit

Quote
Do a search on 'Meteor PR19'...................   ;D  ;)  <_<
I'll do a search for it, but I guess the RAF did not carry overflights after 1960?


Dave

Quote
Kendra, I am not so sure the UK and the US "came to different conclusions" as you state.
I'm not sure exactly when the member I was talking about flew exactly, what I can say is the following
  • He flew during a period where the F-101B's were online
  • He flew off against them during a simulated bomber-attack in which they able to get themselves onto the F-101B's tail and stay there
  • He stated that during at least some point in the service of the aircraft they were going to fly in high and alter course every certain number of seconds while using jamming to deny lock-on and engagement; that the SA-2's at the time were not able to be ripple-fired or at least fired in large numbers rapidly
  • He stated that during some of his time in service they would come in low and so forth
I cannot really determine what years this correlates to: Did we (US/UK) collect any ELINT data on the SA-2's that were based in Communist Bloc countries other than Russia which we were allowed to overfly?

Quote
Both had rules, some were more flexible than others.
How did SAC and Bomber command compare?

« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 11:54:28 am by KJ_Lesnick »
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

Offline KJ_Lesnick

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2017, 05:56:06 am »
rickshaw

Quote
All the west knew was that these missiles had destroyed Gary Powers' U-2, an aircraft that was supposedly invulnerable to other interception efforts.
I did some research and it would appear that a Canberra got blown up in 1959, I know about Gary Powers in 1960, and Major Anderson in 1962.  I'm curious though about something else, which might sound silly, but they are legitimate questions
  • Were there any cases where Taiwanese Canberra's were able to either prevent a lock-on or outmaneuver the missile?
  • When either the U-2's or Canberra's were engaged: How many missiles were fired?  Was it a one-shot, one-kill deal, or were several fired?
While, I know we agreed not to overfly the USSR after Gary Powers was shot down: We still did fly missions of the following type from 1960-1965
  • Over Communist Bloc countries excluding Russia
  • Near Russian territory but outside the 3-12nm area
correct?

I'm asking this because of several reasons
  • The SA-2's appeared in at least one or two Communist bloc nations as early as 1960 (I did some research).
  • The USAF's SAC had planned to employ an attack pattern called a "basket-weave" from 1958-1962: This involved changing heading a certain number of degrees every certain number of seconds and minutes while employing jamming and chaffing at the minimum (I'm not sure if a cell-formation was to be used, but we had decoys as of 1960) and appeared to involve high-altitude operations in spite of the SA-2's.
Quote
The U-2 had been downed.  It had been considered "invulnerable".  What was the point of the B-70 then?
The B-70 was greatly faster for one, and it had substantial electronic jamming and even missiles to defend itself...
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

Offline James W.

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2017, 09:38:15 pm »

The U-2 had been downed.  It had been considered "invulnerable".  What was the point of the B-70 then?


A U-2  flying at subsonic speed is a level of magnitude easier to calculate & execute an SA-2 intercept vector on - than a Mach 3 target.
It is notable that no successful SR-71 intercepts were made, & the recce Foxbats streaking at Mach 3 got across IDF airspace  like-wise..

I don't know if a practice  Bomarc vs  XB-70 interception vector was ever attempted, or a  Bomarc versus Bomarc interception trial was carried out..
.. but they did hit Mach 2 Regulus target drones.. but..  that still aint a successful Mach 3 intercept..

Offline KJ_Lesnick

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 10:05:32 pm »
James W.

Quote
A U-2  flying at subsonic speed is a level of magnitude easier to calculate & execute an SA-2 intercept vector on - than a Mach 3 target.
That's correct
Quote
I don't know if a practice  Bomarc vs  XB-70 interception vector was ever attempted, or a  Bomarc versus Bomarc interception trial was carried out..
F-106's did carry out simulated attacks on the CIM-10.  Not sure the result, but I think they succeeded
« Last Edit: May 09, 2017, 10:07:20 pm by KJ_Lesnick »
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

Offline rickshaw

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2017, 07:47:55 pm »
rickshaw

Quote
All the west knew was that these missiles had destroyed Gary Powers' U-2, an aircraft that was supposedly invulnerable to other interception efforts.
I did some research and it would appear that a Canberra got blown up in 1959, I know about Gary Powers in 1960, and Major Anderson in 1962.  I'm curious though about something else, which might sound silly, but they are legitimate questions
  • Were there any cases where Taiwanese Canberra's were able to either prevent a lock-on or outmaneuver the missile?
  • When either the U-2's or Canberra's were engaged: How many missiles were fired?  Was it a one-shot, one-kill deal, or were several fired?
While, I know we agreed not to overfly the USSR after Gary Powers was shot down: We still did fly missions of the following type from 1960-1965
  • Over Communist Bloc countries excluding Russia
  • Near Russian territory but outside the 3-12nm area
correct?

I'm asking this because of several reasons
  • The SA-2's appeared in at least one or two Communist bloc nations as early as 1960 (I did some research).
  • The USAF's SAC had planned to employ an attack pattern called a "basket-weave" from 1958-1962: This involved changing heading a certain number of degrees every certain number of seconds and minutes while employing jamming and chaffing at the minimum (I'm not sure if a cell-formation was to be used, but we had decoys as of 1960) and appeared to involve high-altitude operations in spite of the SA-2's.
Quote
The U-2 had been downed.  It had been considered "invulnerable".  What was the point of the B-70 then?
The B-70 was greatly faster for one, and it had substantial electronic jamming and even missiles to defend itself...

All those factors have been worked out in retrospect.  At the time, the idea that the U-2 was invulnerable because of it's great height was widely propagated amongst the Politicians and Service people "in the know".  The psychological effect of the downing of Powers was considerable.   Please, there was the promise just coming to fruition of the possibility of completely uninterceptable satellites, high overhead offering the same or better levels of recognition.

Yes, the B-70 was a beast.  Yes, it might have been uninterceptable for a few years BUT don't doubt that the USSR's boffins were working on the means to do it.  Be they SAMs or Interceptors, they were going to have a damned good try at intercepting that transgressing Yankee Imperialist produce of the Military-Industrial complex.

As for the SR-71 "never been intercepted", there have been accounts of BAC Lightnings and Saab Viggens intercepting the SR-71 on it's missions going to and from the periphery of the Soviet Union.   The Lightning's favourite trick was to adopt a ballistic profile and come in from above the SR-71, which caught the SR-71 drivers by surprise as they believed their own hype about how high they flew.   The Viggens also adopted a ballistic profile but came in from below the SR-71.
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Offline Rheged

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2017, 12:28:07 am »
I did some research and it would appear that a Canberra got blown up in 1959, correct?

I'm not able to find anything about a Canberra being taken down  (Martin B57 perhaps, but not RAF Canberra)

As for the SR-71 "never been intercepted", there have been accounts of BAC Lightnings and Saab Viggens intercepting the SR-71 on it's missions going to and from the periphery of the Soviet Union.   The Lightning's favourite trick was to adopt a ballistic profile and come in from above the SR-71, which caught the SR-71 drivers by surprise as they believed their own hype about how high they flew.   The Viggens also adopted a ballistic profile but came in from below the SR-71.



As regards the Blackbird, there is a story that one of these coming over the Atlantic at a "relaxed" Mach 1.6 being told by either Prestwick or Shannon to get out of the way of overtaking traffic. The conversation between them  must have been quite interesting:-

Prestwick Oceanic to  US aircraft "Please descend by 5000feet to allow passing passenger aircraft traffic"

US aircraft "We are USAF Blackbird, our current speed Mach 1.6, suggest you recheck radar calibration, please confirm this instruction"

Prestwick Oceanic" Descend immediately, BOAC Speedbird flight 002 overtaking you at Mach 1.97"

UA aircraft "Descending, Please confirm BOAC aircraft type"

BOAC flight  002 "Blackbird,  this is BOAC Concorde, 95 passengers who are just finishing their Smoked Salmon Starter"

So there you have it, 2 brave US aviators, trussed up like astronauts in a tiny cockpit being overtaken by their grannies sitting in leather comfort sipping G&T s

Don't know if it's actually true, but it should be!     
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Are losing theirs and blaming it on you....."
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: SAC & Enemy Missile Projection Estimates
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2017, 01:00:29 am »

As regards the Blackbird, there is a story that one of these coming over the Atlantic at a "relaxed" Mach 1.6 being told by either Prestwick or Shannon to get out of the way of overtaking traffic. The conversation between them  must have been quite interesting:-

Prestwick Oceanic to  US aircraft "Please descend by 5000feet to allow passing passenger aircraft traffic"

US aircraft "We are USAF Blackbird, our current speed Mach 1.6, suggest you recheck radar calibration, please confirm this instruction"

Prestwick Oceanic" Descend immediately, BOAC Speedbird flight 002 overtaking you at Mach 1.97"

UA aircraft "Descending, Please confirm BOAC aircraft type"

BOAC flight  002 "Blackbird,  this is BOAC Concorde, 95 passengers who are just finishing their Smoked Salmon Starter"
 


Hehehe, love it.  :thumbsup:

Being a bit JMN it would have been a 'BA Speedbird' as BOAC morphed into BA before the Concordes joined their fleet.
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit