Author Topic: TSR2 range  (Read 5106 times)

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Offline Devilfish

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TSR2 range
« on: March 10, 2014, 08:55:01 am »
I know the GOR spec called for a bomber that could fly 1000Nm. 

My question is, could the TSR2 do this on internal tanks only, or did it rely on drop tanks and/or AAR?  Also, I assume the 1000Nm is one way, and not 1000 there and a 1000 back?

I'm trying to figure out what it would take to get a TSR2 to bomb the Falklands from Ascension, in lieu of the Vulcan.  Theres no point in doing it if all hardpoints are filled with drop tanks.....

Offline The Rat

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 09:04:25 am »
1,000 nautical miles was expressed as 'combat radius', so that would be out and back.
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Offline Devilfish

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2014, 09:08:34 am »
Thought so.  Now, I take it that was on internal tanks?

Offline sandiego89

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2014, 10:00:02 am »
I'm trying to figure out what it would take to get a TSR2 to bomb the Falklands from Ascension, in lieu of the Vulcan.

Well it would only take one TSR with a refueling probe and a whole bunch of tankers.  Remember even each Black Buck Vulcan strike required multiple tankers in a VERY carefully designed plan.  I believe there were 13 Victors required (some as spares) for each Vulcan going all the way, some Victors refueled other Victors so that a few could pass off fuel to the primary strike Vulcan.

A TSR2 by itself, no air to refueling, from Ascension to the Falklands?  Not even close to possible.  

No all is lost however for a WHIF, you could still have a WHIF Falklands TSR2, just have to have some tanker support for the scenario from either Victors, Vulcans, VC-10's.  Put a probe on a TSR2 and hang some tanks and iron boms on it.      
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 10:05:49 am by sandiego89 »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2014, 11:21:16 am »
One of my TSR2's will be set up like this --



Which then looks like this;



tanks are the hinderburg ones from a Tornado

mind you, I have been told that a tank this large had been proposed, roughly a 1000 Gal and using a Blue Water pylon;

« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 11:34:33 am by kitnut617 »
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Offline RLBH

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2014, 12:19:57 pm »
I'm trying to figure out what it would take to get a TSR2 to bomb the Falklands from Ascension, in lieu of the Vulcan.  Theres no point in doing it if all hardpoints are filled with drop tanks.....
Scientific wild-arsed guess follows:

The TSR.2 was designed for a radius of 1,000 nautical miles; the Vulcan for a radius of 1,500 nautical miles. Taking into account the tankers to refuel the other tankers, we can assume that the number of aircraft goes as number of radii squared. But the TSR.2 is half the size of a Vulcan, so only needs half as much fuel. So.... fourteen and five-eighths Victors. Call it fifteen. Ish. Maybe.

Now, at overload and with drop tanks on the inner hardpoints, BAC reckoned you could do 1,800 nautical miles. In which case you need four and a half Victors, or nine for two TSR.2s. Not a lot of bombs (6,000 lbs at most, more likely 4,000 lbs) on each, but if they're laser guided and a couple of blokes from Poole with pixellated faces camp out on the east end of Wireless Ridge with a designator, that might just work.  :wacko:

Offline darthspud

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2014, 12:21:32 pm »
Don't think 'they' had laser designators back then. Uncle Sam was keeping those type of toys for 'speshul farces'
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Offline RLBH

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2014, 12:25:31 pm »
The RAF didn't have TSR.2 either, and the US lent us all sorts of nice toys for the duration of hostilities. It's plausible enough for whiffing purposes!

Offline Gondor

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2014, 12:34:57 pm »
The RAF was flying Harrier GR3's during the Falklands and had in fact been flying them for some time all with LRMTS noses just looking for that little laser splash from the men from Pool. So I say laser designation for TSR2's would have been entirely feasible without too much stretching of the imagination.

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Offline The Wooksta!

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2014, 02:17:46 pm »
It's not the fuel that's the problem, it's the amount of engine oil for a mission of the duration NOT the range.
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Offline The Rat

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2014, 09:15:13 pm »
1,000 nautical miles was expressed as 'combat radius', so that would be out and back.

Realise I said that wrong, it should read 1,000 nautical miles out, and 1,000 back. 1,000 is the radius.
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Offline Devilfish

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 12:13:57 am »
Cheers for the replies.   I realise a TSR2 on it's own couldn't hope to make it, I was trying to figure out the tankerage needed and if it could be done without drop tanks, so more ordenance could be carried.  Having just completed my GR6 with Hindenburgs (which look tiny on the huge airframe), 2 LGBs and 4 internal iron bombs, I was looking at a mission with maybe 2 aircraft, carrying as many iron bombs as possible, doing a fast and low run of the airfield.

Offline sandiego89

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 05:49:29 am »
Cheers for the replies.   I realise a TSR2 on it's own couldn't hope to make it, I was trying to figure out the tankerage needed and if it could be done without drop tanks, so more ordenance could be carried.  Having just completed my GR6 with Hindenburgs (which look tiny on the huge airframe), 2 LGBs and 4 internal iron bombs, I was looking at a mission with maybe 2 aircraft, carrying as many iron bombs as possible, doing a fast and low run of the airfield.

Understood.  I think it is doable for a WHIF scenario, and I think with tanks is a more realistic configuration.  From this source http://www.targetlock.org.uk/tsr2/systems.html "The total amount of fuel carried was 5650 gallons (25425 liters). Two pylons could be fitted under each wing, to carry missiles, bombs, or more fuel; the ferry tanks contained 1213 gallons (5460 liters) each."  So figure about 20% extra fuel with the external tanks.  This is significant for long overwater flights.  Even with tanker support, you want to have as much fuel as possible for emergency diverts due to probe failure, tanker failure etc.  This exta fuel would be appreciated.  As pointed out, extra engine oil would be required as well- you could have something internal for that.  

A VERY rough calculation: a bit less than four thousand miles each way, with the return trip being a bit lighter without ordinance.  High all the way except for the strike.  You would want to top off quite frequently to keep diverts possible (very few options down south).  So perhaps pass two thousand gallons (13,400 pounds) at a time.  So perhaps 160,000 lbs of gas for each TSR2 round trip?  Figure around 5 plug ins going south and 2-3 on the return.  We can now (again VERY roughly) figure your tanker support.  Total fuel required for 2 TSR2 is roughly similar to a single Vulcan stike, with the added complication of likely wanting 2 tankers go as far as possbible to give a last top offs before the strike. You would require a simialr tanker package to the Black Buck raides.  So figure ~12 tankers for the two TSR2.        
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 05:51:46 am by sandiego89 »
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Offline KJ_Lesnick

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2014, 05:37:04 pm »
The Rat

Was this 1,000 nm combat radius premised on a supersonic ingress/egress?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 05:39:32 pm by KJ_Lesnick »
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Offline The Rat

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Re: TSR2 range
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2014, 05:53:39 pm »
The Rat

Was this 1,000 nm combat radius premised on a supersonic ingress/egress?

No idea.
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