Author Topic: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB  (Read 15175 times)

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Offline Taiidantomcat

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2011, 08:05:44 am »
Yes, you read it correctly, Marines flying F-22s. One Marine is making the case for just that.

Writing in this months Marine Corps Gazette, Maj. Chrisopher Cannon, argues that its time the Corps begins looking at a plan B for the short take-off and vertical landing B-model which has suffered numerous cost and schedule delays and was placed on a two year probation by former Defense Secretary Robert Gates last spring. Keep in mind that the plane is making considerable flight test progress and that just yesterday, the Marines top aviation officer reiterated the Corps long-held stance that there is no plan B for the Bravo.

Still, its understandable to worry about the F-35Bs fate in a time of serious budget cuts. Many would simply suggest the Corps buy more F-35C carrier variant JSFs or invest in F/A-18E/F Super Hornets.
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However, Cannon argues that Marine Aviation officials should look at replacing the Bravo with a mix of low-end turboprop attack planes (similar to the one the Air Force is considering for its light attack mission) and 60 of the super high-end F-22 Raptors. This would give the Corps a light attack capability and a fighter that dwarfs the F35 in stealth, speed, survivability, deployability, and firepower for less money than it would cost to buy the F-35B.

Heres what he has to say about buying the Raptor:

    On the high end, the Marine Corps could opt for the most capable AAW platform available, the F22. Embracing an aircraft Congress recently voted to stop producing may seem like an extreme course of action, but it makes the most sense for the Marine Corps for several reasons. First, F22s could be purchased now and would be cheaper initially and cost less to maintain than F35s in the future. The current DoD plan is to buy 50 Marine Corps F35B aircraft through 2016 at a cost of $9 billion, or $190 million per aircraft. In 2011, flyaway costs for the F22 are a reported $150 million per aircraft. The U.S. Air Force estimates flying hour costs for the F22 are $44,259 per hour. The 2008 GAO report estimated $33,000 per flying hour in a JSF aircraft. However, F35B costs will likely be higher than A and C models. Additionally, the 2011 GAO update states that current JSF life-cycle cost estimates are considerably higher than the legacy aircraft it will replace. If their most recent estimate of $1 trillion in operations and support costs proves true, F35 flying hour costs will exceed $50,000 an hour. In other words, using current estimates, total life cycle costs for every F35 exceeds that of an F22 by almost $100 million per plane. Certainly there would be a cost to restart the F22 manufacturing base, but this expense is easily dwarfed by these F35 life cycle costs.

    Most significantly, the F22 dwarfs the F35 in stealth, speed, survivability, deployability, and firepower. With a more mature and more powerful active electronically scanned array radar, and with planned upgrades, the F22 is a more credible and less risky investment to fulfill the VMAQs AEA mission. The F22 also represents a better platform for AEA upgrades.

    Significantly, this course of action would accept providing only 11 fifth-generation fighter-capable carriers. It may also require making inroads in positioning Marine F22s in more expeditionary stations than those in Hawaii, Alaska, California, Nevada, New Mexico, Florida, and Virginia, where all F22 aircraft are currently stationed. Forward postured Marine F22s could provide the Nation with greater strategic reach than amphibious-based F35Bs. With a supercruise speed of 1,220 miles per hour, an aerial refueled F22 could make the 1,700-mile transit from Guam to Taiwan in less than 2 hours.

    Future Marine Corps involvement with the F22 program could include testing air-to-ground weapon loads on the four external 5,000-pound-rated hard points and incorporating some of the ambitious close air support-enabling avionics and software upgrades currently only planned in the F35. In the future, this would provide the Marine Corps with the most capable, stealthy AAW fighter for day one of any campaign. In the latter days of a conflict, an upgraded F22 could serve as our most efficient and effective OAS asset. With proper development, the same platform could serve as the MAGTFs AEA asset; conduct intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance; or even provide control for other aircraft or missiles. This would be all at less cost than the F35B and without the threat of cancellation looming the next 2 years.

    A high/low plan B could focus on acquiring approximately 60 F22 aircraft to replace 5 F/A18D squadrons scheduled to begin decommissioning in FY14 and removed from service by FY20. These aircraft would provide more capability and cost less than the estimates for the F35B. For the cost of one F35B, the Marine Corps could acquire and support 10 counterinsurgency-focused aircraft with a 6-hour loiter time. Seven squadrons, each consisting of 14 OV10-like aircraft, could provide AV8B replacements, gap the STOVL requirement while waiting for technology to mature, and pass the savings on to the taxpayer as part of the Commander in Chiefs $40 billion a year in cuts. Other options are available at less risk than betting on F35B continuation in the next 2 years. It is time for an F35B plan B.

Heres the entire article.

He mentions a lot of the counter arguments against buying F-22s in his article but still, Ive got to wonder how much it will cost to upgrade the F-22s avionics and sensors with those found on the JSF. Furthermore, how well would the Raptor stand up to being stationed at those expeditionary sites mentioned by Cannon? Dont forget that the tooling for F-22 long-lead parts is already being shut down as Lockheed gets ready to end production of the jet. There are more questions to be asked, so go wild with this one.

Read more: http://www.dodbuzz.com/2011/09/30/f-22s-for-the-marine-corps/#ixzz1cYpI0Zwg
DoDBuzz.com

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Offline albeback

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2011, 03:23:40 am »
M R C A anyone ? ;D (Must Refurbish Canberra Again)

Perhaps the first priority should be sensible decisions. Something that politicians in general seem to be incapable of making in such matters. I would certainly question the "need" for 2 massively expensive ( & no doubt soon to be equally massively over budget) carriers when the rest of our air  & naval assets are being pared to the bone ! I personally think that the decision to ground the entire Harrier fleet early was idiotic beyond belief. These are just the sort of types we need in the sort of operations now being envisaged & carried out in Iraq & Afghanistan

Not really much to choose from is there?

I believe there is sufficient flexibility in the Typhoon design to allow thrust vectoring & I wonder that it has not been considered as a suitable naval type - if it has, I am happy to stand corrected :smiley:

I think that buying or, even considering anything from the former Soviet Bloc nations would be politically impossible!! However, an SU-35 in 892 sqn markings WOULD look tasty!! ;D

However, on a more serious note, I suggest that the F-35 itself will not be cancelled - maybe only the troublesome B version. I think there's just too much hanging on the programme

Allan
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Offline Mr.Creak

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2011, 04:36:08 am »
I believe there is sufficient flexibility in the Typhoon design to allow thrust vectoring
AFAIK thrust vectoring was planned as available at "some later date" and was taken into account more less from the start.

Quote
I wonder that it has not been considered as a suitable naval type - if it has, I am happy to stand corrected :smiley:
India has already been offered a naval Typhoon.
http://www.armedforces-int.com/news/naval-typhoon-offered-for-indian-jet-contract.html
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Offline albeback

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2011, 04:53:23 am »
I believe there is sufficient flexibility in the Typhoon design to allow thrust vectoring
AFAIK thrust vectoring was planned as available at "some later date" and was taken into account more less from the start.

Quote
I wonder that it has not been considered as a suitable naval type - if it has, I am happy to stand corrected :smiley:
India has already been offered a naval Typhoon.
http://www.armedforces-int.com/news/naval-typhoon-offered-for-indian-jet-contract.html

Appreciate the info. I wasn't aware that a naval Typhoon had been mooted :thumbsup:
Loves JMNs but could never eat a whole one!!

Online rickshaw

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2011, 11:32:31 pm »
How about the RN using Tigermoths instead of JSFs?

They are small, cheap and quite stealthy if you replace the prop with a small turbofan.   QE and PoW could carry loads of them.  ;D
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2011, 03:17:43 am »
How about the RN using Tigermoths instead of JSFs?

They are small, cheap and quite stealthy if you replace the prop with a small turbofan.   QE and PoW could carry loads of them.  ;D

They would be a vast improvement on our current fixed wing naval airpower assets for sure........  :-\
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

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Offline Caveman

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2011, 10:37:14 am »
Not quite but not far off...


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Offline McColm

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2011, 04:13:35 am »
Could always use hang gliders!

Offline lancer

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2011, 02:53:54 pm »
Could always use hang gliders!

Not a chance; They'd be banned on health and saftey grounds... I was thinking thaty maybe microlights could be used instead???
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Offline McColm

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2011, 02:09:47 am »
Or those hoverflyers the USNavy turned down.

Offline pyro-manic

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2011, 09:46:08 am »
12-bore shotguns and a really long ladder to climb up..... :rolleyes:
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Offline McColm

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2011, 02:07:53 pm »
Hawker Beechcraft AT-6 light attack and armed reconnaisance aircraft.

Offline scooter

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2011, 02:41:42 pm »
Not quite but not far off...




Considering the Stringbag never got replaced during WWII, sure, why not see it come back.
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2011, 04:03:28 pm »
Considering the Stringbag never got replaced during WWII, sure, why not see it come back.

'Cos there's only two of them........  :banghead:
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings

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Offline scooter

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Re: the "Dump the JSF" (or "alternate NATO fighter aircraft after 2015") GB
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2011, 07:19:17 pm »
Considering the Stringbag never got replaced during WWII, sure, why not see it come back.

'Cos there's only two of them........  :banghead:

I'm sure some enterprising sport could find the engineering drawings and bring them back to light.  Cut new tubing and fabric.
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Oh are you from Wales ?? Do you know a fella named Jonah ?? He used to live in whales for a while.
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